DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 21:52
"if the operator does it properly" - can you elaborate? That sounds like a bit of a cop out...

You've seen the wording of the warning.
You can fly in cold conditions but you can't fly with a cold battery.
The cop out is trying to say it's DJI fault's when you didn't follow the necessary procedures for flying in a cold environment.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-10-11 13:10
You've seen the wording of the warning.
You can fly in cold conditions but you can't fly with a co ...

The DJI website is advertising that you can fly with a cold battery:

AIRCRAFT
Operating Temperature: 0°C to 40°C

INTELLIGENT FLIGHT BATTERY
Operating Temperature: 14° to 104° F ( -10° to 40° C )

http://www.dji.com/phantom-3-pro/info#specs

Do you see the false advertising now?

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 17:42
What are you on about? This was not vortex ring state and this was not an inexperienced pilot. But ...

Aloha DroneAlps,

     On what basis have you determined that what you experienced was not VRS?  From your description, what you experienced certainly sounds like VRS.  Maybe you described your experience wrong.  I can only respond to what you represent.  Have you reviewed the link that I provided?  Did you watch the video?

     What maneuver did you do, and what evaluation of conditions did you do, to assure yourself that you were not in VRS.  As Labroides notes, the safe operation of a Phantom is the responsibility of the pilot.  I can take the safest car in the world and crash it in varying degrees of disaster due to a lack of knowledge about specific driving conditions on my part.

     The pilot that crashed the stealth H-60 in the Bin Laden compound during the Pakistan raid was an experienced pilot who went into VRS because of altitude issues.  Are you certain you did not go into VRS and if so why?  A stealth pilot can fly safely and not crash his helicopter like the other stealth pilot on the same mission, or he can crash a perfectly safe helicopter like the one that crashed during the raid.  The pilot is the critical variable.  The safe aircraft is not the variable.

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetaman Posted at 2016-10-11 13:34
Aloha DroneAlps,

     On what basis have you determined that what you experienced was not VRS?  F ...

DJI said it crashed due to battery failure. I also immediately lost connection to the drone, which would not happen if it entered a VRS.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 22:23
The DJI website is advertising that you can fly with a cold battery:

AIRCRAFT

No ... what I can see is that there's no point continuing this ridiculous dialog.
Last time for me ... you can fly in cold conditions ... just not with a cold battery as explained by the warning you ignored explained.
Over & out

adrianr Posted at 2016-10-11 04:22
Just went through all of the comments, and as in most cases I see a lot of negative synergies from o ...

That's because this is now at least the third thread started regarding his loss, and he is not agreeing with the outcome that DJI is not considering this a warranty issue. I reposted one of their replies above, here it is again.

"Regardless of firmware, once you armed the motors, you were given a warning that the battery temperature was below 15° C and was told to allow the battery to warm up to at least 25° C before you continue to fly. This message was ignored, which unfortunately means that the consequences could not be covered under the warranty. The battery barely warmed to 13° C when the flight log ended."

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 05:38
Really? Check post #23.

You are again completely missing the point. I know the battery failed bec ...

OMG you are being so narrow minded. You confirm the battery was at 14°c, and that's too cold for these batteries. And confirm you did get a warning message not to fly until the battery gets to 25°c, and you just forge ahead and take off anyway!! All because back on their website it states an operating temp range you were within at the moment. Give it up, you made a poor decision not to follow the message the software was giving you, because if you did the Phantom would have flown in that temp range just fine. That's NOT false advertising because the battery needs to be at 25°c, not the ambient temp.

wmcvey Posted at 2016-10-11 15:58
That's because this is now at least the third thread started regarding his loss, and he is not agr ...

This is not about warranty - this is about DJI misleading customers by exaggerating the performance of their drones.

wmcvey Posted at 2016-10-11 16:13
OMG you are being so narrow minded. You confirm the battery was at 14°c, and that's too cold for t ...

These warning messages were not even present until version 1.5 of the P3 firmware, when DJI clearly realized their mistake and tried to cover their tracks. It seems to be working as you think this means they can advertise whatever they want as long as a warning message pops up on screen!

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 22:23
The DJI website is advertising that you can fly with a cold battery:

AIRCRAFT

Those figures specify that the aircraft can operate at that temperature range, it does not guarantee that it can fly in them.  That means you can turn it on and get it ready and the electronics will operate.  If it overheats the components can fail or the component specifications could change causing it not to run.  Same in cold conditions.  You also run the risk of mechanical changes with contraction of metal surfaces, changing the machining tolerances of moving parts, e.g. the motors, meaning they might not spin as expected, or the accelerometer could seize.  The manufacturer gives a typical range of operation, in reality you might get problems before you hit those upper or lower tolerances, or it may be able to operate reliably beyond the tolerances.  Did you consider wind chill?  It is impossible to specify a tipping-point and failure to one degree of precision!

In your case the problem is with the battery and its sudden shutdown.  It is able to operate in a wider range of temperatures before temperature affects the chemistry of the battery.  Operating it outside the range specified will cause permanent damage to the cells and perhaps cause a dangerous condition like fire, explosion or leakage.  It drastically alters the discharge characteristics and it may not be able to provide the discharge current required to attain flight or acceleration in cold and thin air environments.

In both cases, the temperature ranges stated for these two components are correct and accurate.  There is no false advertising.

You conveniently rely on the app telling you you had a green "Safe to Fly" message, yet somehow feel it is appropriate and responsible to overlook multiple cold battery warnings on the same app.  By the way, the "Safe to Fly" message doesn't guarantee everything is fine in all respects for flight; you still have to rely on the pilot to make the final determination.  It doesn't know if a child has suddenly run up to it and put their face in the spinning props.  All it is saying is that it has passed all its internal checks and there are sufficient GPS signals, it has an accurate compass reading, motors are spinning with no obstruction, IMU is stable etc.  I'm not sure why novice pilots take this so literally...

We don't know the condition of this second battery.  Did it get wet from condensation, has it been dropped or was it swollen?  Did you check for this?  These and other conditions are not recorded in the logs.

DJI also clearly "advertise" in their documentation to take care and offer advice which would supersede any published "specifications".  The following common-sense advice is advertised throughout their publication "Phantom 3 Safety Guidelines and Disclaimer" which is provided with every aircraft, which of course, you read thoroughly.  These are particularly applicable to your case:

• "Read and understand the warning messages before using the Auto-take off and Auto-landing features."
  

• "Read and understand the warning message and disclaimer before setting the altitude beyond the default limit."
• "Read all prompted safety tips, warning messages, and disclaimers carefully."
• "Read and understand the warning messages..."
• "Land your aircraft immediately if there is an alert shown on the app."
• "Examine and check all warning messages on the checklist displayed in the app prior to each flight."
• "Aircraft and battery performance is subject to environmental factors such as air density and temperature."
• "When battery warnings are triggered, promptly bring the aircraft back to the Home Point or land to avoid losing power during flight and causing damage to the aircraft, property, animals, and people."
  

This document hasn't changed since at least 2015, and there is a disclaimer at the end "This content is subject to change".  It's up to you the pilot to keep up-to-date.   The temperature ranges are the same as they have always been.  There has not been a coverup since a firmware change as you allege.  It wasn't a mistake, there were obviously a lot of people not heeding this published advertised advice and crashing in cold weather, so they added a warning.  The operation of the aircraft didn't change in that respect.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-10 12:15
Yes, DJI blamed the reason for the battery failure as low temperature, but you can see that it is  ...

The specs say it is capable to fly in those temps and it will .

I have flown as low as 0 F a few times and often at 10-30F

However that does not mean one is absolved of using common sense about batteries.
batteries always loose power when cold, anyone that has driven a car in winter knowns they often fail and are weaker in cold weather

just don't start your flights with a COLD battery,
keep in pocket or vehicle or some such


good luck and have fun flying!

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 06:52
"if the operator does it properly" - can you elaborate? That sounds like a bit of a cop out...
If y ...

then it would be wrong!

endotherm Posted at 2016-10-11 16:30
Those figures specify that the aircraft can operate at that temperature range, it does not guarante ...

"Those figures specify that the aircraft can operate at that temperature range, it does not guarantee that it can fly in them.  That means you can turn it on and get it ready and the electronics will operate."

Sorry but nobody buys a drone for it to sit on the ground. Next you will say that the 'maximum wind resistance' is referring to when it is on the ground and will not be blown over!

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 05:12
I never said everything else is irrelevant - but you are missing the point entirely. Why advertise  ...

seriously ,
get over the false advertising issue...

It is NOT FALSE

They fly fine well under 14c ALL the time
you simply thought you did not need to pay attention to the COMPLETE picture.
any warning or caution should have most operators  stopping and checking it out prior to continuing.

again a little common sense can go a long way

DJI said that the battery was barely at 13° when it crashed, not the 14° you stated its temperature was, giving the impression it was at that temperature for the whole flight, and marginally under the 15° warning threshold.  For a two minute flight the battery would have started around 10°C.

So you were 5° colder than necessary to generate a warning, and 15° lower than recommended for safe flight.  Clearly a bad decision if it were deliberate.  Pilot error if you were unaware of it.

The battery will operate just fine, even at -10°.  Just don't expect it to happily deliver 25 Amps at that temperature!

endotherm Posted at 2016-10-11 17:08
DJI said that the battery was barely at 13° when it crashed, not the 14° you stated its temperatur ...

What are you talking about? Here is the screenshot that DJI themselves posted in another thread:

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 02:02
"Those figures specify that the aircraft can operate at that temperature range, it does not guaran ...

No one said anything about leaving it sitting on the ground.  I said the electronics would operate in that range.  First thing you would do is "get it ready".  Then you can absolutely fly it.  Stop making up stuff and misleading people if you can't understand the intent of what is being said.  You are being childish and deliberately obtuse.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 02:15
What are you talking about? Here is the screenshot that DJI themselves posted in another thread:

...

I'm going by DJI-Jamie's comment quoted in post 17, as you haven't uploaded your flight log, that's all we have to go on.

I do see 15 low battery warnings and 10 critical battery warnings, and you pushing the sticks at 100% vertical and 100% horizontal speeds, your battery was down to 12V and you were pulling 29 Amps, and you are surprised that it shut down and fell out of the sky???   Right.

endotherm Posted at 2016-10-11 17:24
I'm going by DJI-Jamie's comment quoted in post 17, as you haven't uploaded your flight log, that's ...

What are you trying to achieve here? I'm trying to figure out why DJI are lying about the performance of their drones, causing them to drop out of the sky at cold temperatures. I therefore want to know the true temperatures in which these drones can operate. You seem intent on trying to lecture me about reading manuals and adding useless information to the discussion. Whether it was 13 or 14 degrees is irrelevant. The point is it was more than the minimum specified on their website.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 02:34
What are you trying to achieve here? I'm trying to figure out why DJI are lying about the performa ...

How many people have replied to you explaining how things work, why the figures are quoted, telling you that the aircraft work just fine at the quoted temperatures but the batteries need to be warmed up to a safe temperature otherwise they will shut down?  Point to the lies for us.  You are just conveniently ignoring all the facts and just persisting with your insane version of what constitutes performance and lies.   

In post 56 you asked me specifically "what are you talking about?"  I replied, and apparently that is useless information.

Seek help elsewhere mate, and I don't mean with your drone.

endotherm Posted at 2016-10-11 17:48
How many people have replied to you explaining how things work, why the figures are quoted, tellin ...

You seem to have an agenda here, and have resulted to personal insults, which says it all really. If you can't see the lies and performance exaggerations then so be it, I'm sure it won't affect you anyway.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 17:38
Really? Check post #23.

You are again completely missing the point. I know the battery failed bec ...

DJI never said the drone will work in colder conditions without following the proper procedure.. if the battery was warmed up to 25C it would have worked.. or would have been their fault if it did not. That is why serious flyers in cold environments get a lipo battery warmer or make sure to carry their battery on their body.....
This is not meant to attack you; but you are actively attacking DJI - and many of us, after reading what seems to be facts, think that is inappropriate.. if the battery is below certain temp and dji app warns you of it, and you ignore it, then it is not their issue, and does not reflect on their advertisement. They say they will operate in certain temps,and they will, provided you follow the procedures outlined elsewhere. This is standard approach in aviation - there are rules to be followed with every aircraft, and they may differ.. The pilot and the technicians of the aircraft have responsibilities to follow certain processes, if they do not, it is not the aircraft manufacturer/part fault....

I do hope that all, including I, can learn from you negative experience, so we do not get in the same bind as the winter approaches, and for that, I do thank you for sharing your experience.. As far asd giving a black eye to DJI, in this case, I believe they do not deserve it.

Hope you made enough $ on your projects where you can afford buying another drone, and can insure it for such issues in the future... accidents will happen, they always do..

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 03:05
You seem to have an agenda here, and have resulted to personal insults, which says it all really.  ...

This whole post is now irrelevant, DJI have said no to warranty coverage, so you can moan and bleat all you like, end of story. You act like a dying man clutching at straws, man up and take responsibility.

Geebax Posted at 2016-10-11 23:33
This whole post is now irrelevant, DJI have said no to warranty coverage, so you can moan and blea ...

How many times, this is not about warranty! A lot of people are looking at this from a hobbyist point of view, and saying that it's the pilots fault end of story. Unfortunately that is not good enough in the professional world. These devices are authorized by aviation authorities based on their ability to prevent malfunctions, regardless of pilot action. The simple fact is, you cannot have drones falling out of the sky. The drone knows the temperature of the air and the battery. It knows the cell voltages and so should be able to prevent such problems with relative ease. Something isn't working with their current systems.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 09:18
How many times, this is not about warranty! A lot of people are looking at this from a hobbyist poi ...

Fine, you keep telling us that, and we, collectively as a community, will keep telling you that you screwed it. And this drivel will go on endlessly.

Maybe this will clear things up for you:  The temp figures quoted that the battery and the Phantom will operate in are AIR TEMP's.  Not component temps.  Yes,  the battery will work at lower temps than 14.  But that is at lower AIR TEMP, not hardware temp.  The warning message,  had you taken it as literally as you take performance data,  would have saved your aircraft.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 09:18
How many times, this is not about warranty! A lot of people are looking at this from a hobbyist poi ...

"The drone knows the temperature of the air and the battery. It knows the cell voltages and so should be able to prevent such problems with relative ease. Something isn't working with their current systems. "

The drone knows the cell voltages but is limited with what it can do to prevent such problems because of physics and chemistry.
DJI tried to prevent your problem by warning you.
But the thing that DJI can't prevent is idiots who ignore warnings.
YOU are the element that isn't working.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 19:43
DJI said it crashed due to battery failure. I also immediately lost connection to the drone, which ...

Aloha DroneAlps,

     Well, if that is the prognosis, then that is what you have to deal with in the future.  I hope you are not going to let this slow you down in your flying.  Learn to fly the batteries if that is the environment you want to fly in.

     On the other hand, look at that other thread I posted and look into high altitude effects on VRS.  If you are going to fly in that environment, maybe this was a good discourse so the problems of that Pakistani do not become your problem.  In that extreme environment, even the P3 series, P4, Inspire and other heavier lifters DJI designs and makes to reduce the effects of VRS will become more susceptible to VRS, especially on those nice, hot days like the Pakistani had.

     Hope this helps!

Aloha and Drone On!

well, i will do my best to stay out.., this is going nowhere, but i think i understand the frustration of the OP, he is simply pissed and is looking for closure... not in the right way, but such is the way if we get blinded by anger and want something, anything to be our way... so somewhere deep inside I do sympathize.. but for me, this went on long enough...
So, good day all. See you on other threads ;) Perhaps ones not so emotional.... or emotional in a good way - like proclaiming a resurrection of a drone, or something....

I completely agree with Phantomski, this thread is going nowhere. The OP is not and will not take ownership of his mishap. Maybe one of the mods will put this to bed and just close it down, enough said.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 06:46
Ken, thanks for chipping in. The flight logs have been analyzed by DJI and show that the temperatu ...

What app and firmware version were you on.
What is your email and I'll take a look a the flight.
But if DJI overseas from me already made their determination there's nothing I can do.

Are the quoted temperatures in the manual and on the specifications page for BATTERY TEMPERATURE or AMBIENT AIR TEMPERATURE? I believe the temperatures are for AMBIENT AIR TEMPERATURES, not specific BATTERY TEMPERATURE, that is why people (including myself) are successful flying in very cold temps.  (BTW, I am not trying to ensnare anyone to further this discussion, I am just curious.)

My interpretation: The DJI website does not say you can fly with a cold battery, it says you can fly in the specified cold AMBIENT AIR TEMPERATURES.

Kneepuck Posted at 2016-10-12 00:41
Maybe this will clear things up for you:  The temp figures quoted that the battery and the Phantom w ...

Nothing backs up your claim at all. In fact, all you have to do is look at their website. Even the battery heater page says the following:

"It uses the battery's power to raise the battery temperature to the optimal operating range: 41℉ to 95℉ (5℃ to 35℃)."
http://store.dji.com/product/phantom-3-battery-heater

So as you can see, 14℃ (the temperature at which my drone fell out of the sky) is right in the middle of their "optimal operating range".

Nevermind.  Despite being told by every single person who replied essentially the same thing,  you refuse to accept any part of the responsibility.  Get your lawyer and have at it.  I hope you have lots of money to pay legal fees with.

Kneepuck Posted at 2016-10-12 22:10
Nevermind.  Despite being told by every single person who replied essentially the same thing,  you r ...

Hold on, you previously said the following:

"The temp figures quoted that the battery and the Phantom will operate in are AIR TEMP's.  Not component temps."

Do you still hold this position after seeing this: http://store.dji.com/product/phantom-3-battery-heater

"It uses the battery's power to raise the battery temperature to the optimal operating range: 41℉ to 95℉ (5℃ to 35℃)."

Are they talking about the air temperature or the battery temperature? Doesn't it fit nicely inbetween the 0-40 range I was talking about?

i havent flown in these temps but from what i gather from reading all the posts, phantom can,and does fly in these temps,but only if you wait for the battery to heat up, and DJI GO warned you of this at take off.
it seems you ignored this and suffered the consequences.

personally i think you thought the battery would heat up quickly in flight(maybe from previous experiance?), as it does, and cause no problems. but unfortunatly it didnt work this time around for whatever reasons.

so to me there is no issue of false advertising here,only pilot error.

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 23:18
How many times, this is not about warranty! A lot of people are looking at this from a hobbyist poi ...

one more thing,

it seems from this post you are blaming DJI for letting you take off with a cold battery,that DJI GO should prevent take off until the battery is warm enough?

shakin Posted at 2016-10-12 22:58
i havent flown in these temps but from what i gather from reading all the posts, phantom can,and doe ...

You're missing the point - it should work as advertised, without compromise.
Can you not see the false advertising in this latest example?

"It uses the battery's power to raise the battery temperature to the optimal operating range: 41℉ to 95℉ (5℃ to 35℃)."
http://store.dji.com/product/phantom-3-battery-heater

Remember, my drone dropped out of the sky when the battery was 14℃ - perfectly in the middle of their advertised "optimal operating range".

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 22:04
You're missing the point - it should work as advertised, without compromise.
Can you not see the fa ...

okay,from further reading and reading the battery warmer specs ill retract my previous post,you should have been within limits, 5-35, so why would DJI use low battery temp for cause of crash??  are they basing it on the take off temp and warning??

since the drone CAN opperate at those temperatures,complying with advertised specs, but they gave you low battery temp for cause and you WERE within given specs,id be inclined to push for warrenty also on those grounds

DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-12 16:14
Hold on, you previously said the following:

"The temp figures quoted that the battery and the Phan ...

Dji is notorious for poor documentation, and even incorrect documentation.  If you wish to press a case on that,  fine.  But the fact is,  the app warned you about the battery temp.  Apparently more than once.  I will concede that the written documentation is not up to date with current knowledge.  If you concede that you lost your aircraft because you knowingly ignored the warnings from the Go app,  which is constantly updated.  I am no Dji fanboy,  you can check some of the complaints that I have posted about re: range problems on the standard.  But if the app tells me not to fly for some reason, I pay attention to it.
As far as documentation, check the manual for the P4.  Full of contradictions rebstacle avoidance when in sport mode being on or off.   Lets face it, non native English speakers make as many mistakes as do native English speakers.  Advertised range for my Phantom was, at first far less than what I, and many others , were getting.  When Dji realized that,  they changed the specs.  It took a while. I don't think a large number of people base their purchasing decision on battery operating temps, so its not that big a deal for most,  especially if you heed the warnings in the Go app, which are the latest info available.