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(POLL) 1080p/60 isn't usable currently, do you need/want it?
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7464 65 2016-11-19
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Nees
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With what we have seen already in 1080/60, it is not usable.

I created this poll to rise awareness and see if people really actually care about this mode.

I would like to use it.

How about you.

Because not everyone seems to know what the problem is, here is a perfect example. Look at the windows from buildings and look at all vertical obstacles in a distance, look at the white lines from the road. They are all "wavey" because of the aliasing. You know it from in games, those jaggies. It is most obvious on vertical/curves lines with contrast, but it affects the whole picture.



Cant correct typos in the poll, damn So that has to be:"I only film 4K"
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2016-11-19
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Wind Junkie
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This is news to me, 1080@60fps doesn't work? How so? I haven't tried it bc I've done 4k, but I'd like to do 1080 for zooming purposes. Thanks for the info
2016-11-20
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trance728-
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Wind Junkie Posted at 2016-11-20 08:48
This is news to me, 1080@60fps doesn't work? How so? I haven't tried it bc I've done 4k, but I'd lik ...

I don't have mine yet, but people are reporting any framerates higher than 30 have been showing a jelly effect making them unusable for video recording. Supposedly those framerates are only meant for FPV flying where that effect doesn't matter but having low latency does. Which is really dumb since there is no indication that the goggles will ever be released.
2016-11-20
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Wind Junkie
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trance728- Posted at 2016-11-20 08:58
I don't have mine yet, but people are reporting any framerates higher than 30 have been showing a  ...

Interesting, I'll test today and follow up. Thanks
2016-11-20
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NavigatorNL
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There are several examples of Mavic footage shot at 1080 / 60fps. Looks good. I do not understand the panic and 'hear say'.
2016-11-20
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Flybee
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NavigatorNL Posted at 2016-11-20 17:17
There are several examples of Mavic footage shot at 1080 / 60fps. Looks good. I do not understand th ...

Can you you post a link of it? Would be nice to see some evidence on pointing at the other side
2016-11-20
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Wind Junkie
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I forgot that I recorded this in 1080/60, second time I flew the Mavic. Looks good to me
2016-11-20
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bigcheese
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the "problem" is the line aliasing effects on sharp edges like the roofs...  
2016-11-20
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Flybee
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Wind Junkie Posted at 2016-11-20 19:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dRdE1r1Qqg I forgot that I recorded this in 1080/60, second time I  ...

Agreed I think it looks totally good, what kind of post did you do?
Thanks for posting this one.
2016-11-20
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Wind Junkie
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Flybee Posted at 2016-11-20 14:25
Agreed I think it looks totally good, what kind of post did you do?
Thanks for posting this one.  ...

What do you mean what kind of post did I do?
2016-11-20
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Schwavic
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Wind Junkie Posted at 2016-11-20 12:41
What do you mean what kind of post did I do?

He means post processing for color and image correction, like Adobe Premiere, DaVinci Resolve, or Apple Final Cut Pro...
2016-11-20
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Nees
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Wind Junkie Posted at 2016-11-20 19:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dRdE1r1Qqg I forgot that I recorded this in 1080/60, second time I  ...

Doesn't look like 1080p/60. I think you uploaded the wrong video. Youtube even goves option for 2160p. Perhaps you converted it to 60fps?

It is also not smooth at all like 60fps would look like.
2016-11-20
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Flybee
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Wind Junkie Posted at 2016-11-20 21:41
What do you mean what kind of post did I do?

I'm sorry that I was mumbling Schwavic is correct, that was my question

What software did you use? If you did use some?
Color grading?
Sharpening?
Others?
2016-11-20
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Wind Junkie
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Flybee Posted at 2016-11-20 16:19
I'm sorry that I was mumbling Schwavic is correct, that was my question

What software did you use ...

Ah sorry, yeah I edited the raw footage in Final Cut Pro X, perhaps there was some sort of conversion within FCPX I inadvertently did while cutting some footage to reduce time. I really threw this together to send to my Dad who lives across the state, not for purposes for showing 1080 @ 60, I just thought that was the setting I recorded in. I'll try to record in 1080p @ 60fps and upload an example video directly from the raw file to YouTube, no FCPX involved.

Thanks
2016-11-20
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Flybee
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Wind Junkie Posted at 2016-11-20 22:31
Ah sorry, yeah I edited the raw footage in Final Cut Pro X, perhaps there was some sort of convers ...

Ok, don't stress do it when it's suitable for you.

2016-11-20
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fschilder
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According to the manual (still waiting for mine), it records 1920x1080 at 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60 and 96 fps.
2016-11-20
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Nees
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fschilder Posted at 2016-11-20 23:41
According to the manual (still waiting for mine), it records 1920x1080 at 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60 and ...

Yes.... But unusable.
2016-11-20
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lucrousseau
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I have m'y Mavic for a week now, I really like it except for the overall 1080p quality, especially 60/96fps that unusable, really bad quality.

Just hope that can be fixed in the next firmware
2016-11-20
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fansae63899d
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Jitter effect 1080p 48fps:


2016-11-20
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QuanthonyTrang
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Its bad.. in 1080p, anything higher than 30fps is pixel dumping. This is causing the moire effect. I think its a hardware limitation on the sensor (its a different sensor to the p4). DJI has done this to accommodate for the goggles. The goggles need to be minimum 60fps with zero latency for decent experience.
2016-11-20
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NavigatorNL
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fansae63899d Posted at 2016-11-21 03:51
Jitter effect 1080p 48fps:


Not only jitter imho. Looks like a compression thing too. Or zoomed in in post processing. Footage is so much worse than the footage WInd Junkie posted.
2016-11-20
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AusAir
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QuanthonyTrang Posted at 2016-11-21 14:30
Its bad.. in 1080p, anything higher than 30fps is pixel dumping. This is causing the moire effect. I ...

The sad thing is, there is still far too much latency for fast FPV flying as suggested in the original Mavic promo video. Ocusync has >100ms latency (around 130ms or the like compared to 220ms for Lightbridge). Sure it's better but that's still far to much for FPV at speed or around obstacles. Hence most FPV racers sticking with SD analogue.

There are now dedicated 0 latency FPV systems available but they'll cost you more than the Mavic combo.
2016-11-20
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MavPro
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Does anybody know what sensor and what DSP-chip is in the mavic? (I'd like to look at the datasheets)
There has been a pdf where DJI stated why 1080p 48fps and up is not able to get decend image quality, but I can't find that pdf and therefore I'm not able to read it.

What I read was that 4k 60fps could also be possible from the image sensor, but the processing is not possible, because the DSP-chip (?) has not enough power or does not support that mode.
It is also said that the processing for 1080p30fps works that way that it gets down sampled from 4k 30fps, which of course needs some processing power as well. So 1080p 60fps is not possible because there is not enough power to down sample 4k 60fps to 1080p 60fps.

But the fact that it is possible to record in 1080p up to 96fps and those are real 96fps (and not just 30fps upsampled to 96fps, you can see that in the slow motion videos) means that the sensor must be capable of that.
Can anyone tell me if there is a crop when shooting in 1080p 96fps? That would mean that they just use 1920x1080 pixels out of the sensor and not all pixels and scale them down to 1080p.
This would be an option to get 1080p 96fps without the moire effect, but worse image quality.

I'm would also be interesting to know if the DSP chip is from a supplier and it looks like that:

image sensor => DSP chip => DJI hardware to transmit to the ground
image sensor => DJI DSP hardware to manipulte the image for OcuSync => DJI hardware to transmit to the ground

I am just curious about all this, because I don't know any camera that is capable of 4k 30fps, but can NOT shoot in 1080p 60fps.
So I don't believe that it is a problem of the sensor/dsp chip, but more a decision made by DJI because of the goggles they sell.

As a customer that read in the product description of the mavic 4k 30fps/1080p up to 96fps I would be fine with being able to choose between a "OcuSync" mode and a "normal" mode.



2016-11-21
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Revs
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MavPro Posted at 2016-11-21 08:27
Does anybody know what sensor and what DSP-chip is in the mavic? (I'd like to look at the datasheets ...

This thread has technical info... http://forum.dji.com/thread-68842-1-1.html
2016-11-21
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ENG101
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AusAir Posted at 2016-11-21 15:40
The sad thing is, there is still far too much latency for fast FPV flying as suggested in the orig ...

I'm not familiar with FPV racing tech, doesn't the latency increase with distance the signal has to travel regardless?  At the maximum Mavic range of 4 miles we should expect a large latency right?
2016-11-21
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MavPro
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Thanks for the link.

I got it now.

- The sensor can output 1080p at max 120fps, but only with binning
- when using all pixels it is capable of 4k 60fps, but using the (now old) h264 codec would also give poor results, because the bitrate is too slow
- if it were possible to raise the bitrate there would also be the problem that the writing speed to a sd card gets limiting
- that could only be solved by using the never h265 codec which has better compression and would bring down the needed writing speed

Right?

P.S.:
I read that the Phantom 4 Pro is able to record 4k 60fps only with h264 and with h265 only 4k 30fps.
So I think the h265 needs more processing power to compress it?

What is the limiting factor for the mavic that makes it not possible to shoot in 4k 60fps?
Codec? => P4Pro can do it with h264
Writing speed? => Does the P4Pro have an SSD on board?
Processing power => Could that be it?





2016-11-21
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AusAir
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ENG101 Posted at 2016-11-21 20:23
I'm not familiar with FPV racing tech, doesn't the latency increase with distance the signal has t ...

RF travels close enough to the speed of light that distance doesn't impact on latency.
2016-11-21
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Wind Junkie
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Here is some raw footage I took this morning in 1080p@60fps. One thing to note: I forgot to focus {:4_157:}

Otherwise, I think it looks pretty smooth. This was just an example video, nothing interesting here to see other than the resolution and FPS

2016-11-21
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McFussel
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check at 60 sec the lines of the roof....this is so poor.

otherwise it looks nice.

DJI has to fix that.....
2016-11-21
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Username Taken
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Am I the only one that sees no problem with the footage?
I'm no video expert.  I've been a photographer for some time, and I do like sharp crisp edges, but you're having highly contrasting features that're slowly moving across different columns or rows of pixels.  Is it not possible that this is just the result of the pixels?  
I flew my Mavic yesterday in 1080 @ 60 (which is my preferred filming mode), and although I haven't loaded it onto the computer yet, I saw no issues upon playback.  Just as I see no issues with all of the videos posted above.
2016-11-21
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Wind Junkie
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McFussel Posted at 2016-11-21 23:40
check at 60 sec the lines of the roof....this is so poor.

otherwise it looks nice.

Yeah, I can see the lines at 60 seconds, it does indeed look funny. I'm not sure if DJI can fix that or not, we'll see I guess
2016-11-21
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NavigatorNL
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I'm at my iMac 2016 27" with Retina display. I can see it too.  Take a look at 2:35 at the numbers on the house: kind of jello.......
2016-11-21
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nils_heidorn
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Hi !
Honestly this has been discussed over and over again, also revealing Sensor datasheets and DJI's explanation (= excuse) as PDF for this lacl of Interpolation Quality in >= 48 FPS modes.
I can offer a bit of relief here:
http://forum.dji.com/thread-71084-1-1.html

But dont expect this to be magically fixed. While its not 100% impossible if you browse the older threads its highly unlikely.
So:
Get used to it or buy another drone if you feel you need 1080p60 mode. Or try the workaround rendering i describe in the above thread.

Greetings,

Nils
2016-11-21
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QuanthonyTrang
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Username Taken Posted at 2016-11-22 03:03
Am I the only one that sees no problem with the footage?
I'm no video expert.  I've been a photograp ...

The playback video from your cached device is 720p @ <30fps. Lower frame rates will not show the moire effect (pixel oversharpening pattern).
2016-11-21
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QuanthonyTrang
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ENG101 Posted at 2016-11-21 20:53
I'm not familiar with FPV racing tech, doesn't the latency increase with distance the signal has t ...


Nope..
The latency is from processing and compression and decompression.

In Analogue, there is no compiling hence zero lag for FPV. If it doesn't know what is transmitted then its just static.
In digital, it has to wait for enough ones and zeros to compile an image. If it cannot compile, then you just get a black screen or some green boxes. It is this compiling that slows everything down. And the further you are away, the lower chance of receiving ones and zeros to compile. The Lightbridge 1.5 is doing this at 720p @ possibly 15-30fps with high compression. It is sending 2-4 megabit per second minimum 7ks away to compile a 720@<30fps.
2016-11-21
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Wind Junkie
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nils_heidorn Posted at 2016-11-21 13:08
Hi !
Honestly this has been discussed over and over again, also revealing Sensor datasheets and DJI' ...

Interesting, thank you
2016-11-21
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McFussel
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Sorry, the workaround is CRAP!

U loose quality and and colors - even if you use ProRes....
2016-11-22
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nils_heidorn
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McFussel Posted at 2016-11-22 10:34
Sorry, the workaround is CRAP!

U loose quality and and colors - even if you use ProRes....

There are many users who disagree, even pros. Did you really try it for yourself or is this guesswork ?
If you could be more detaild in your critics i may can help otheriwse you are stuck..

Nils

P.S. i am following the first YT guide, not he hybrid approach and i adjust the resulting Bitrate to be 1,5 x as much as incoming.
So for a 60 MBit/s inpout i go to 100MBit/s output to minimize re-compression artifacts.
Colors are *completely* unchanged if you follow the guide.
And "ProRes" sounds like you are using a different Software that has a crappy inter frame interpolations. Liek iMovie or Adobe premiere for example.
If you did THAT i can understand your critics although not your harshness...
2016-11-22
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McFussel
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I used Hybrid and tried aroud for several days.

If DJI would fix that - there is no need for such an extensive rework.

Please do not misunderstand: My critics is not against the people who did that workaround - it is because of such a stupid situation on such a cool product.

I will try to play with "that specific" workaround on the weekend. But the pixel binning on 60 and 96 is so uncool.....I am frustrated on that - not on you or anybody else (exept DJI ;-) ). Just to make that clear.
2016-11-22
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nils_heidorn
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McFussel Posted at 2016-11-22 12:59
I used Hybrid and tried aroud for several days.

If DJI would fix that - there is no need for such  ...

Hi !
I can only offer you to upload a 30FPS for me that "needs" a workup too-fast pans - no ND resulting in not-smooth-enough video.

I would love to convert that and give back to you.

Without a doubt the "real thing" would be better but i was bale to produce some astonishing results and some shitty ones :-)
But i am getting better to reduce the latter.
As will all such software they will fail at some point, predicting wrong (ghost) movements and producing artifacts. Question is always if the benefit of smoothness is bigger then the problem of some Artifacts.

Lets try. c'mon, gimme that downlioad :-)
(native 24/25/30 FPS 1080p / 2.7 / 4k file, best unchanged directly cut out of a Mavic file)

Nils

P.S. need to play with that Hybrid setup too, as i said i am using the other setup but a pro member of my home forum found it and was able to produce identical results PLUS having more options (Chroma-Luma compression Biit distribution and stuff)
2016-11-22
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