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[Story] DJI Drones visible to ATC Radar!?
3290 23 2016-12-13
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Ange1walk
lvl.4
Flight distance : 30305 ft
Austria
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Ok so, i was having a really calm flight with my P4Pro in a very Uninhabited area, where maybe 1 Person in 2 hours passes by.

10 Minutes into the flight, a Person did indeed pass by and unfortunately our Population as in People in  Austria  are in general very cold and very spiteful and never know what fun is, i said to myself i'm sure this guy will call the Cops just because he can.

And sure enough after some minutes, out of nowhere a cop car detected me.

Officer and his Partner walked towards me and asked me what i was doing, i said i'm flying.
He wanted to see my logs to make sure i didn't pass 150 Meters (our Altitude Limit)

He was dissapointed that i was flying very Responsibly and within Laws limits, so he couldn't give me a 22.000€ Ticket.



After that just out of curiosity, i asked him did a guy passing by here call you guys, how did you find me!?

He said: "It showed up on ATC Radar, that's how we knew your general location."
I said: "How can it show up, it's a "small" Copter, in Terms of any ATC Radar picking it up"
He said: "ATC can fine tune their Radar to detect almost everything in the Air, from little Birds to a 747"

What do you guys think, is it possible? Imo it's BS what he said

& Share your Stories!

2016-12-13
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RedHotPoker
Captain
Flight distance : 165105 ft
Canada
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Yes, you have got a dirty rat in the pack. Hahaha
Not a simple friendly bypasser, but a jealous and envious, to a fault, shallow person.

Instead of congratulation, they look to give negative comment and turn in the offender.
Thanks for following the guidelines and being a positive ambassador for our drone world and vast hobbiest family. ;-)

Good stuff, hopefully others in your general area, read this and will follow your positive lead. Well done. Thanks for the welcomed news.

RedHotPoker
2016-12-13
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Ange1walk
lvl.4
Flight distance : 30305 ft
Austria
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RedHotPoker Posted at 2016-12-13 20:29
Yes, you have got a dirty rat in the pack. Hahaha
Not a simple friendly bypasser, but a jealous and envious, to a fault, shallow person.

Thanks for the Kind Words

It's a shame really, that we need to be scared over here in Austria to fulfill our Hobby.
You see, if someone mentions a Drone, they act immediately & check it out, because they know they might gain huge Funds for the State to Cash in if they give you a ticket (22.000€) in that case.

But if any other real crime occurs, they act like "Eh, it's another one of them".

And about our People in general here, it's beyond my imagination what they would gain to call Cops on their Fellow Countrymen and Women, Humankind is really strange these days

But as always, i can say to everyone here, stick to the Rules and Enjoy your Hobby & nobody can take that away from us!

Drone ON
2016-12-13
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RedHotPoker
Captain
Flight distance : 165105 ft
Canada
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Ange1walk Posted at 2016-12-13 13:53
Thanks for the Kind Words

It's a shame really, that we need to be scared over here in Austria to fulfill our Hobby.

Yeah, always stick to the rules of your countrymen to keep a friendly fellowship, and enjoy the view from above. ;-)

Please disregard to ones who would only bring bad news, to us. ;-)


RedHotPoker
2016-12-13
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Kneepuck
Captain
Flight distance : 275102 ft
United States
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In short, no they cant.  Air traffic control radars rely on transponders to get their data.  Commercial aircraft use these transponders to send data to atc radars.  No transponder, no aircraft is basically the situation.They aren't really radars in the typical sense.  Military radar is a different story.  Your walker by ratted you out and the cop lied to you.  Tune in birdies.  lol.
2016-12-13
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Geebax
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Australia
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Kneepuck Posted at 2016-12-14 08:27
In short, no they cant.  Air traffic control radars rely on transponders to get their data.  Commercial aircraft use these transponders to send data to atc radars.  No transponder, no aircraft is basically the situation.They aren't really radars in the typical sense.  Military radar is a different story.  Your walker by ratted you out and the cop lied to you.  Tune in birdies.  lol.

I agree fully with what Kneepuck says, the ATC radar cannot see you, it is only set up to see transponder carrying aircraft. And the cops lied to protect the idiot who reported you.
2016-12-13
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Kneepuck
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United States
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Geebax Posted at 2016-12-13 16:41
I agree fully with what Kneepuck says, the ATC radar cannot see you, it is only set up to see transponder carrying aircraft. And the cops lied to protect the idiot who reported you.

Hello Captain Geebax,  and congratulations on your promotion.  Does that lofty altitude inspire nose bleeds much?
2016-12-13
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Geebax
Captain
Australia
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Kneepuck Posted at 2016-12-14 08:49
Hello Captain Geebax,  and congratulations on your promotion.  Does that lofty altitude inspire nose bleeds much?

Nah, I am a low and dirty Captain, I fly in the weeds.
2016-12-13
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PhantomPhil
Second Officer
Flight distance : 44731 ft
United Kingdom
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I think Austrians have an historic identity crisis that they still can't come to terms with. I wouldn't worry about their misinformation - enjoy yourself. "Austria are in general very cold and very spiteful and never know what fun is"
2016-12-13
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fans0d31b435
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While I don't know if ATC radar could identify something as small as a DJI Phantom, I DO know that they can see things on radar that DON'T have a transponder.  They call this a "skin paint".

As a pilot, I've had ATC tell me that they see another plane on radar but that they don't have any detailed data (altitude, intentions, etc.) since they're only getting a "skin paint" on the aircraft (transponders communicate altitude data, etc.)

Just wanted to share that...
2016-12-15
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Skyclip
Second Officer
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fans0d31b435 Posted at 2016-12-16 06:51
While I don't know if ATC radar could identify something as small as a DJI Phantom, I DO know that they can see things on radar that DON'T have a transponder.  They call this a "skin paint".

As a pilot, I've had ATC tell me that they see another plane on radar but that they don't have any detailed data (altitude, intentions, etc.) since they're only getting a "skin paint" on the aircraft (transponders communicate altitude data, etc.)

Thats correct. Here in Germany we have a regular Radar combined with Transponder Receiver. So, ATC sees planes on the Radar, regardless of Transponder on or off. The Transponder transmits Altitude, Speed,  Heading, Squawk Code.

Objects as small as an Phantom wont be recognized, especially under 150 Meters.
BTW: For VFR flights in Germany, Transponder is not mandatory as long as you dont enter a TMZ (Transponder Mandatory Zone). You dont even have to report to FIS (Flight Information Service).

I would love to have an Mode-S ADS/B Transponder on Board of my Phantom/Inspire, but the receivers
and regulations are not ready for that here in Europe. That would help safety a lot.
http://sagetechcorp.com/index.html
2016-12-16
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Mitel
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United Kingdom
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Skyclip Posted at 2016-12-16 01:21
Thats correct. Here in Germany we have a regular Radar combined with Transponder Receiver. So, ATC sees planes on the Radar, regardless of Transponder on or off. The Transponder transmits Altitude, Speed,  Heading, Squawk Code.

Objects as small as an Phantom wont be recognized, especially under 150 Meters.

Air traffic control radar can see objects which don't have a transponder, it is called Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR). Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) does require a transponder.

Many (not all by far) commercial airports have a local PSR and either their own SSR or take a feed from elsewhere.

That said, it is pretty unlikely that an airport PSR would detect a drone for any length of time, especially if it is some distance away, manoeuvring and below 150 metres.
2016-12-30
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CineView Media
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If you fly in regulated airspace you get a squawk code, if you fly outside you dont always get one, then it will show up on the radar as squawk 7000, which is a general code for unidentified aircrafts. All registered aircrafts have a radio transponder.
Unless youre close to the airport, the radar cant see you, those radars are made to detect birds and other unwanted visitors in close proximity.
I say he was just out to brag and to scare you ;)
2016-12-30
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fansd2e77d65
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Perhaps you just weren't given the full information.  Here in Hawaii we have a Radar unit called the floating golf ball, but it is really an Xband radar unit.The x-band radar, or XBR, was designed, built and tested by Raytheon for Boeing, the prime contractor of the SBX-1 development. It is the most advanced electro-mechanically steered phased array x-band radar derived from the radar of the Aegis combat system.  The radar beam is formed by the 45,000 transmit / receive modules, mounted on an octagonal flat base. It can see an object similar to the size of a baseball at a range of 2,500 miles. About 69,632 multisectional circuits are used in the radar for transmitting, receiving and amplifying signals.   
2016-12-30
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Ange1walk
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fansd2e77d65 Posted at 2016-12-30 07:57
Perhaps you just weren't given the full information.  Here in Hawaii we have a Radar unit called the floating golf ball, but it is really an Xband radar unit.The x-band radar, or XBR, was designed, built and tested by Raytheon for Boeing, the prime contractor of the SBX-1 development. It is the most advanced electro-mechanically steered phased array x-band radar derived from the radar of the Aegis combat system.  The radar beam is formed by the 45,000 transmit / receive modules, mounted on an octagonal flat base. It can see an object similar to the size of a baseball at a range of 2,500 miles. About 69,632 multisectional circuits are used in the radar for transmitting, receiving and amplifying signals.

Good to know, i'm lucky then, i'm 100% sure they don't have any of these Radars over here, as i'm guessing this piece of Radar costs like ALOT
2016-12-30
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Alyn Walsh
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Ange1walk Posted at 2016-12-30 09:30
Good to know, i'm lucky then, i'm 100% sure they don't have any of these Radars over here, as i'm guessing this piece of Radar costs like ALOT

Hi, A pilot informed me that civil aviation radar in general cannot detect an object as small as a "phantom"  (x distance from source) but a Military radar can detect one. Worth knowing the difference!!

2016-12-30
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Mitel
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United Kingdom
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Alyn Walsh Posted at 2016-12-30 12:50
Hi, A pilot informed me that civil aviation radar in general cannot detect an object as small as a "phantom"  (x distance from source) but a Military radar can detect one. Worth knowing the difference!!

^^^ Yes, some types of military radar uses phased-arrays (sometimes called holographic 3D) which can be specially tuned for identifying smaller objects like drones.

Registered aircraft do not necessarily have a transponder (commercial ones do). The whole reason for airports to spend $millions on primary radar is to see non-transponding aircraft.

However, who knows, they might have been trialling systems like this one in Germany ;)
2017-1-1
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CineView Media
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Alyn Walsh Posted at 2016-12-30 12:50
Hi, A pilot informed me that civil aviation radar in general cannot detect an object as small as a "phantom"  (x distance from source) but a Military radar can detect one. Worth knowing the difference!!

Thats correct.
2017-1-1
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MacPap
lvl.3
Greece
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Who needs a radar with drone detection capabilities if one has access to "Mr. I will call the Cops just because I can"?
2017-3-14
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fansb1fe1104
Captain
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United States
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Kneepuck Posted at 2016-12-13 13:27
In short, no they cant.  Air traffic control radars rely on transponders to get their data.  Commercial aircraft use these transponders to send data to atc radars.  No transponder, no aircraft is basically the situation.They aren't really radars in the typical sense.  Military radar is a different story.  Your walker by ratted you out and the cop lied to you.  Tune in birdies.  lol.

That is not true, on 9/11 the hijackers turned off the transponder to one of the planes headed for the WTC, and air traffic control said they watched the blip go right into the wtc area then just vanished...They said they couldn't tell what altitude the plane was at or any info but they could see the blip.
2017-3-14
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Kneepuck
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fansb1fe1104 Posted at 2017-3-14 16:30
That is not true, on 9/11 the hijackers turned off the transponder to one of the planes headed for the WTC, and air traffic control said they watched the blip go right into the wtc area then just vanished...They said they couldn't tell what altitude the plane was at or any info but they could see the blip.


That aircraft was somewhat larger than a drone in any case.  I imagine major hubs like NYC could operate that way, but they typically don't.   Imagine if they did.  Every bird in radar range would be showing.  Totally clutter the screen.  And, I may be wrong on this, but it seems I recall that any aircraft in controlled airspace must have a transponder.

2017-3-14
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Cabansail
Second Officer
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Australia
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MH370 effectively disappeared because the Transponder was not active. It did appear on some military radar (Primary)  after it had changed course. The estimates of it's final location were made from enging reporting systems via satelite and the ping times.
2017-3-14
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blackcrusader
First Officer
Flight distance : 689774 ft
Taiwan
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I'm so happy I only fly legally where I live   
The Yushan National Park Police watching my screen in amazement as my Phantom races across the skies in search of good scenery to film.

2017-3-14
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Zeldon50
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Flight distance : 11634 ft
United States
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Post deleted (by me). It was redundant!
2017-3-15
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