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New UK Drone Laws???
1809 34 2016-12-21
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fans3fb806ff
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As with anything else I think this will impact on responsible drone owners more in the long run, allthough I know something has to be done. But i doubt it will stop ll the idiots out there who want a good passanger plane shot for youtube will be at the front of this registration idea.


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/21/drone-users-face-safety-test-new-uk-regulations

Any thaughts??
2016-12-21
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Nigelbrinkmann
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I read this news clip this morning, I think all the rules and regulations are only going to get worse in years to come!
2016-12-21
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Peter Galbavy
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Through a strange sequence of connections I was interviewed on the BBC for this I was described, somewhat wrongly, as an "expert". Oops.

The news at the moment is about a "consultation" by the CAA on future regulations based on the EASA stuff. It's all bull as the decisions have already been made and this is just part of the stautory requirement to consult. So, I suggest wandering around the CAA website and finding the consultation in the lock toilet in the filing cabinet marked "Beware of the Leopard" but what you say, regardless of how lucid, polite and informed you are, they will go ahead with what they have already decided.

On of my points was that if the rules are too complex or too discouraging we are either going to lose fliers and future talent and/or people will simply ignore the rules.
2016-12-21
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Nigel_
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Are people who haven't yet passed the test going to have to fly with L-Plates and under supervision?  

I think the same rules should also apply to other users of our airspace including balloons, kites, Chinese lanterns...

But until there is evidence of a need for a test, I don't see it happening, I think a compulsory bicycle test should be much higher on the list.

And we need some video of aeroplanes having close encounters with drones at 6000' altitude before I will consider their reports as evidence of anything other than UFOs, they have been reporting those since long before quadcopters existed, they are just taken more seriously if they report a drone instead of a UFO.



2016-12-21
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jorgerodrigues
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  Here in Switzerland they just adopted another bunch of flying restrictions. Were I live the municipality tried to implement a rule against flying in Sundays because they say drones are really loud. Also refered was that drones, specially in spring time, should not be alowed to fly because they can harm birds, specially eagles when is nesting time...  I'm just wayting to see what comes next...
2016-12-21
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Peter Galbavy
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https://www.gov.uk/government/co ... s-to-the-uk-economy

The main doc is so full of mistakes (factual and literal) it's almost laughable. Sigh.
2016-12-21
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njalex
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Here in the US, they have had drone restrictions for about a year now. We need to register our drones, and we can't fly them more than 400ft or out of LOS. To use them commercially, we have to take a test. These UK regulations sound worse, now you have to take a test just to fly a drone? I hope the regulations don't get this strict where I live...
2016-12-21
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tiansimpson62
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Peter Galbavy Posted at 2016-12-21 14:25
https://www.gov.uk/government/co ... s-to-the-uk-economy

The main doc is so full of mistakes (factual and literal) it's almost laughable. Sigh.

Were you on the BBC this channel this morning? I do remember a guy holding a drone saying that the rules are to complex now.

As with all legislation of this nature I find it laughable. Terrorists are not going to be registering nor is the rich kid asshole who wants to annoy people off with it. Only genuine people will be affected.
2016-12-21
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Peter Galbavy
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Yes, much to my feigned embarrassment it was me. A tech journo friend introduced me to Rory C-J and before I knew it, having carried my Mavic to work for some diagnostic playing, I was in front of a camera.

:-)
2016-12-21
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Matt-and-Riley
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Amazon own all your airspace
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38320067

Interesting video on the amazon site, I'm sure that drone is out of VLOS, guess rules don't apply to these people.

Anyone know where their secret drone base is?
??

2016-12-21
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BeamMeUpScotty
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I agree it is going to get worse with the restrictions.  Hobbyists here in the US try to follow the rules but many just are not aware.  I have seen so many great night photos/videos (awesome).  Interestingly according to the FAA you can only fly 30 minutes post and pre-twilight with aviation lights (the phantoms do have these.)  One hobbyist even shot a video on how he turned the lights off to improve the quality of the shots.  Nothing like a permanent record of your violation on the net!  You can get a waiver from the FAA from this requirement, but you better have a good reason and be able to demonstrate safety.

Violating a TFR can potentially land you in jail for a year.  Most hobbyists don't know how to check NOTAM's. It's gonna get interesting!
2016-12-21
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BeamMeUpScotty
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Ohh the other thing that is happening here in the US is that the local states, townships, bourough, and cities are also instituting restrictions, statues and laws which are not uniform to make it even more confusing.
2016-12-21
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tiscali
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The thing that struck me, which I hadn't actually realised before, is that the present 120m/400ft flying height restriction only applies to UAVs over 7kg.

Like Peter said, it reads as if they've already made their decision. If you want to see what the future will be like, have a look at the new NATS Drone Assist app -
http://dronesafe.uk/drone-assist/

A lot of the reviews on the App Store comment on the fact that it's intrusive on details they want from you before you even access it.
2016-12-21
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Nigel_
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tiscali Posted at 2016-12-21 19:20
The thing that struck me, which I hadn't actually realised before, is that the present 120m/400ft flying height restriction only applies to UAVs over 7kg.

Like Peter said, it reads as if they've already made their decision. If you want to see what the future will be like, have a look at the new NATS Drone Assist app -


"A lot of the reviews on the App Store comment on the fact that it's intrusive on details they want from you before you even access it."

Yes, I haven't installed it purely because it is run by a private company that asked for my email and telephone details for no apparent reason before letting me even see it.  If it was actually run by NATS then I might trust it, but an external private company presumably looking to make money from my details?  Expect a load of emails and phone calls with advertising localised to the areas you fly in and which know when and where you go on holiday!
2016-12-21
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Aardvark
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Nigel_ Posted at 2016-12-21 21:29
"A lot of the reviews on the App Store comment on the fact that it's intrusive on details they want from you before you even access it."

Yes, I haven't installed it purely because it is run by a private company that asked for my email and telephone details for no apparent reason before letting me even see it.  If it was actually run by NATS then I might trust it, but an external private company presumably looking to make money from my details?  Expect a load of emails and phone calls with advertising localised to the areas you fly in and which know when and where you go on holiday!

They are tied to the data protection laws the same as all the other private companies that do your banking, electricity, gas, telecoms (broadband, data, telephony), to name but a few. So there shouldn't be any issues regarding personal data.
I installed the App' but in terms of mapping areas of interest it was no better than the NOTAMS site I use anyway. I suspect they're hoping to make money by offering additional services.
2016-12-21
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Nigel_
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Aardvark Posted at 2016-12-21 21:53
They are tied to the data protection laws the same as all the other private companies that do your banking, electricity, gas, telecoms (broadband, data, telephony), to name but a few. So there shouldn't be any issues regarding personal data.
I installed the App' but in terms of mapping areas of interest it was no better than the NOTAMS site I use anyway. I suspect they're hoping to make money by offering additional services.


I assume you didn't read their privacy statement, presumably their data protection registration reads in a similar way:

https://www.altitudeangel.com/TermsAndPolicies/Privacy


b. Data we collect about you.

With regard to each of your visits to our Website and/or Mobile Application and your use of the Service, we will automatically collect the following Data:

i. technical information, including the Internet protocol (IP) address used to connect your computer to the Internet, your login information, web browser type and version and operating system and platform;

ii. information about your visit, including URLs starting with a referring site, your activity on this Website and the site you exit to, analytics about your use of our Drone Safety Map, a list of errors that have occurred associated with your visit (if any) and performance information about how well our Website pages were delivered;

iii. information about your drone including drone log data, real time drone telemetry and/or drone flights made or to be made;

iv. information about the device upon which you access and use the Service;

v. payload data;

vi. data in respect of your location / GPS;

vii. unique application numbers (for example, when you install or uninstall the Service containing a unique application number or when the Service searches for automatic updates, that number and information about your installation, for example, the type of operating system, may be sent to us); and

viii. any other data that may be generated by or used by the Website or the Mobile Application.

4. Our Use of Data
Unless we are obliged or permitted by law to do so, and subject to Clause 5, your Data will not be disclosed to third parties.

This excludes: our partners, affiliates and/or other companies within our Group from time to time and

ii. other Users who may access and use your Data for safety planning purposes; and

iii. fully anonymised Data that we may send to third parties for the purpose of market research.

Specifically, Data that you provide to us may be used by us for the following reasons: to carry out our obligations arising from any contracts entered into between you and us and to provide you with the information and services that you request from us;

ii. to provide you with information about other services we offer that are similar to those that you have already purchased or enquired about;

iii. to provide you, or permit selected third parties to provide you, with information about goods or services we feel may interest you;

e. We may also use the Data that we collect about you for the following reasons:
vi. to make suggestions and recommendations to you and other Users of our Website and Mobile Application about goods or services that may interest You or them; and

vii. to combine the Data with data received from third parties for all of the purposes set out in this clause 4.

Wherever You are required to submit Data, You will be given notifications and options regarding our use of that Data. This may include the following:

8.1.1 use of Data for direct marketing purposes; and

8.1.2 sharing Data with third parties.


2016-12-21
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Aardvark
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Nigel_ Posted at 2016-12-21 22:19
I assume you didn't read their privacy statement:

https://www.altitudeangel.com/TermsAndPolicies/Privacy

"Wherever You are required to submit Data, You will be given notifications and options regarding our use of that Data. This may include the following: "

They are tied to very strict personal data privacy laws. They cannot release your personal data to anybody else without your express permission.
2016-12-21
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Nigel_
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Aardvark Posted at 2016-12-21 22:25
"Wherever You are required to submit Data, You will be given notifications and options regarding our use of that Data. This may include the following: "

They are tied to very strict personal data privacy laws. They cannot release your personal data to anybody else without your express permission.

But you can not use their app without giving them express permission, it is written in their terms and conditions:

https://www.altitudeangel.com/TermsAndPolicies/Terms

".                How We Use Your Personal Information (Data Protection)  

9.1             All Personal Information that We may collect from You or any third party in connection with your use of the Goods and/or Services including, but not limited to, data provided by Your drone and any software associated with it (including, but not limited to, Your name, e-mail address, residing country, telephone number, information regarding Your drone and drone flight telemetry) will be collected, used and held in accordance with the provisions of the Data Protection Act 1998, your rights under that Act and in accordance with Our Privacy Policy, which forms part of these Conditions and thereby, Our contract with You.

9.2         We may use Your Personal Information to:

9.2.1     Provide Our Service to You;

9.2.2     Process Your payment of Fees to Us; and

9.2.3     Inform You of new products and services available from Us.  
"
2016-12-21
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Aardvark
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9.2 must be pretty standard for any contract surely, to provide services, to collect payment. To provide new products and services from them only, not any third party vendor. For that to happen (third party vendor) they would need your permission.

As I've grown older my spam e-mail has generally moved from those offering physical extensions, to those offering extensions of stamina

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think there is anything ominous going on. Given that the information I require (airspace classifications) is available from another source, it is unlikely I shall use the App' to its fullest extent ( Informing them when/where I am flying so that other like minded people will know and not crash into my aircraft).

It was more out of curiosity to see what it had to offer that I thought I would give it a go.
2016-12-21
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Nigel_
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Aardvark Posted at 2016-12-21 23:02
9.2 must be pretty standard for any contract surely, to provide services, to collect payment. To provide new products and services from them only, not any third party vendor. For that to happen (third party vendor) they would need your permission.

As I've grown older my spam e-mail has generally moved from those offering physical extensions, to those offering extensions of stamina

I wouldn't mind telling NATS where I was flying and being able to see where other are flying, but when they insisted on my phone number for no good reason I became suspicious, then I realised that it wasn't NATS but probably an ex-NATS person trying to make his private fortune with the help of some ex-colleagues!

So instead I went  to http://www.noflydrones.co.uk/ which freely gave me the info with no demands.

2016-12-21
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Aardvark
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Nigel_ Posted at 2016-12-21 23:15
I wouldn't mind telling NATS where I was flying and being able to see where other are flying, but when they insisted on my phone number for no good reason I became suspicious, then I realised that it wasn't NATS but probably an ex-NATS person trying to make his private fortune with the help of some ex-colleagues!

So instead I went  to http://www.noflydrones.co.uk/ which freely gave me the info with no demands.

This is what I use:-

http://notaminfo.com/nationalmap
2016-12-21
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trance728-
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BeamMeUpScotty Posted at 2016-12-21 09:40
I agree it is going to get worse with the restrictions.  Hobbyists here in the US try to follow the rules but many just are not aware.  I have seen so many great night photos/videos (awesome).  Interestingly according to the FAA you can only fly 30 minutes post and pre-twilight with aviation lights (the phantoms do have these.)  One hobbyist even shot a video on how he turned the lights off to improve the quality of the shots.  Nothing like a permanent record of your violation on the net!  You can get a waiver from the FAA from this requirement, but you better have a good reason and be able to demonstrate safety.

Violating a TFR can potentially land you in jail for a year.  Most hobbyists don't know how to check NOTAM's. It's gonna get interesting!

As a hobbyist the night restriction is not there, that's only for commercial Part 107 users. For the hobbyist it just states that the drone has to have lights and be visible for orientation and stay in LOS.
2016-12-21
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BeamMeUpScotty
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trance728- Posted at 2016-12-22 08:33
As a hobbyist the night restriction is not there, that's only for commercial Part 107 users. For the hobbyist it just states that the drone has to have lights and be visible for orientation and stay in LOS.

Thx, I asked the FAA since I'm a newbie.  Here was their response.

Thank you for your inquiry. In order to operate under section 336 of Public Law 112-95, a model aircraft must, among other things, be “operated in accordance with a community based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization.”  Currently, the largest nationwide community-based organization that operates model aircraft is the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). AMA's safety code specifically states, “RC night flying requires a lighting system providing the pilot with a clear view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times.  Hand-held illumination systems are inadequate for night flying operations.”


Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
UAShelp@faa.gov
http://www.faa.gov/uas
2016-12-21
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BeamMeUpScotty
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AlecW Posted at 2016-12-21 23:45
That night time rule only applies to commercial (paid for) 107 flying.  As a hobbyist you can fly at night, obviously you have to maintain LOS.

Thx, I asked the FAA since I'm a newbie.  Here was their response.

Thank you for your inquiry. In order to operate under section 336 of Public Law 112-95, a model aircraft must, among other things, be “operated in accordance with a community based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization.”  Currently, the largest nationwide community-based organization that operates model aircraft is the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). AMA's safety code specifically states, “RC night flying requires a lighting system providing the pilot with a clear view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times.  Hand-held illumination systems are inadequate for night flying operations.”


Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
UAShelp@faa.gov
http://www.faa.gov/uas
2016-12-21
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tiscali
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Nigel_ Posted at 2016-12-21 21:29
"A lot of the reviews on the App Store comment on the fact that it's intrusive on details they want from you before you even access it."

Yes, I haven't installed it purely because it is run by a private company that asked for my email and telephone details for no apparent reason before letting me even see it.  If it was actually run by NATS then I might trust it, but an external private company presumably looking to make money from my details?  Expect a load of emails and phone calls with advertising localised to the areas you fly in and which know when and where you go on holiday!

You're right Nigel, why would I want to volunteer lots of  private information to a private company. My concern is that it will probably be this model which will be used if/when the government decides we all ought to be registered and need to register our flight plan before we fly.
If you read the government's paper on their consultation they are very complimentary about the NATS app.
2016-12-22
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tiscali
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Aardvark Posted at 2016-12-21 21:53
They are tied to the data protection laws the same as all the other private companies that do your banking, electricity, gas, telecoms (broadband, data, telephony), to name but a few. So there shouldn't be any issues regarding personal data.
I installed the App' but in terms of mapping areas of interest it was no better than the NOTAMS site I use anyway. I suspect they're hoping to make money by offering additional services.

When I give my personal details to my bank, broadband provider etc, it's in return for a service. I can't see what service this app is providing to me in return for the private company being able to monitor what I do.
2016-12-22
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Aardvark
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tiscali Posted at 2016-12-22 12:12
When I give my personal details to my bank, broadband provider etc, it's in return for a service. I can't see what service this app is providing to me in return for the private company being able to monitor what I do.

They are providing a service by displaying a map of your area and where it is advisable to fly or not to fly; different classes of airspace, that's the free bit. Taking it further they can, I believe, log your flight details (at your discretion), and those of other flyers in that area so that everybody is aware of what is happening in their immediate vicinity (I think that these 'facilities' are paid for). They are still tied to the same strict data privacy laws we have in the UK. Heavy fines, or closed down should there be any misuse of that data.

It's your choice whether or not to use it (at least at the moment).
2016-12-22
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Peter Galbavy
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In my view, having read the consultation document quickly, registration requirements have a number of problems, especially for recreational fliers.

1. Why register? Whats the benefit to the end-user? There is no sales pitch, no attempt to even pretend that you could use it to recover found aircraft etc.

2. What is the cost benefit to the state versus the registration (they can't call is licensing!) of other common recreational items such as bicycles, as one example?

3. No mention is made of tourism and visitors to the UK. This problem is already happening in the US, where you can register but opnly after you are in the country, and the associated growth of modern, monied tourists wanting to capture their trip by drone will only increase - and can be an attration to bring money into the exconomy.

The document also makes by implication it clear that the inevitable next-step is permission based flying where you have to have positive confirmation before being allowed to fly via an app. How will this work when you have no 'net connectivity in a valley in a rural area?

These are only my first-pass issues with registration. I haven't even written down the problems with the other parts and the false assumptions and errors-in-fact in the consultation document. sigh.
2016-12-22
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trance728-
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BeamMeUpScotty Posted at 2016-12-21 18:40
Thx, I asked the FAA since I'm a newbie.  Here was their response.

Thank you for your inquiry. In order to operate under section 336 of Public Law 112-95, a model aircraft must, among other things, be “operated in accordance with a community based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization.”  Currently, the largest nationwide community-based organization that operates model aircraft is the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). AMA's safety code specifically states, “RC night flying requires a lighting system providing the pilot with a clear view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times.  Hand-held illumination systems are inadequate for night flying operations.”

Exactly, according to that statement you as a hobbyist can fly at night as long as you maintain LOS, the Phantom already has lights which show its orientation.
2016-12-22
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fans110c880a
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tiscali Posted at 2016-12-21 19:20
The thing that struck me, which I hadn't actually realised before, is that the present 120m/400ft flying height restriction only applies to UAVs over 7kg.

Like Peter said, it reads as if they've already made their decision. If you want to see what the future will be like, have a look at the new NATS Drone Assist app -

AIR NAVIGATION ORDER Article 166 & 167 Small Unmanned Aircraft Under 7kg.
States shall not be flown at a height exceeding 400ft agl or beyond VLOS of the said aircraft or a maximum range of 500mtrs.
2016-12-22
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Mallettron
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The uk ano refers to models over 7kg - 400ft, under 7kg - no limit
For more information try and read cap658     http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/moda ... ail&pagetype=65
2016-12-22
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Peter Galbavy
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This is part of the problem, you're on the wrong/old ANO because the CSA is failing to update even it's own references. The current one is updated and even the poor consultation document says there is no limit under 7kg except line of sight.
2016-12-22
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Nigel_
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Peter Galbavy Posted at 2016-12-22 13:49
In my view, having read the consultation document quickly, registration requirements have a number of problems, especially for recreational fliers.

1. Why register? Whats the benefit to the end-user? There is no sales pitch, no attempt to even pretend that you could use it to recover found aircraft etc.

The reasons for registration are given in the last document, see page 4:

https://www.gov.uk/government/up ... registration-ia.pdf

Basically it is in order to collect data about drone usage, plus, for unexplained reasons, a £5 registration fee.

While I can see that this data would be useful, I do think that like registration for bicycles, they should wait until it is shown that there is a problem that can be solved before collecting data about UK citizens and charging fees.   Currently I don't see the evidence of a problem or evidence that the problem can be solved through registration.   I don't consider a few reports of UFOs flying in places that the average drone can't reach or can't reach for more than a couple of minutes at a time to be evidence of a problem, plus there are other methods of collecting data that would be adequate for the purposes specified.

2016-12-22
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tiscali Posted at 2016-12-22 10:25
You're right Nigel, why would I want to volunteer lots of  private information to a private company. My concern is that it will probably be this model which will be used if/when the government decides we all ought to be registered and need to register our flight plan before we fly.
If you read the government's paper on their consultation they are very complimentary about the NATS app.


"If you read the government's paper on their consultation they are very complimentary about the NATS app."
The app is not a bad idea, although since it relies on having an internet connection with all flying drones I don't see how it will work.   Where I flew today there was no phone signal let alone internet.  In future I suspect that drones flying autonomously (beyond visual range), such as Amazon delivery drones, will fly higher than the 400ft band of consumer drones and thus will all be out of mobile communications range, the mobile towers transmit and receive directionally and cover the ground, not the sky.  So the autonomous drones will have to have obstacle avoidance on-board, not on the web server of that private company, maybe using short range transmissions to talk to other drones in the near vicinity to exchange location, direction and speed data and thus avoid each other.
2016-12-22
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Peter Galbavy Posted at 2016-12-22 19:07
This is part of the problem, you're on the wrong/old ANO because the CSA is failing to update even it's own references. The current one is updated and even the poor consultation document says there is no limit under 7kg except line of sight.

Yes, sorry, the site hasnt kept up with any changes
The updated agreed file is here


http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1168.pdf

Its been renewed for 2016
2016-12-22
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