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Zenmuse X5 Jello/Rolling Shutter (98% SOLVED) M600,D-RTK,X5
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lt
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Dmitry, you can try those mag balancing weights and cut them to weight and stick them to the camera. They have double-sided adhesive at the back that sticks like crazy. I'm also looking into getting a few ND filters for video.
2017-1-22
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lt
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Tahoe Ed, can you please also remember to point us in the direction of the torque settings for the props please
2017-1-22
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Dmitry_R
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-22 20:21
Hi Chaps,
After looking at your pictures and then my craft I have found another place of weakness, the diagonal arms connecting the bottom plate, the ones facing forward, they offer very little lateral stiffness and if it were possible a diagonal brace between the arms would help tie the beast together. due to space and its odd shapes this is not an easy mod but I have some 4mm ally tube with brass threaded inserts from an old frame that can be cut to fit inside the front and rear arms and screwing in place adding some rigidity to the weak design. I will put the horizontal tube at mid distance on the stays to firstly divide the flex by 50% while transfering loads horizontaly and also half (aprox) any hamonics transmitted through them. will post pictures upon completion.

Good idea with coating, Ricci!
it was -33C two weeks ago (Rus, Moscow region), but its abnormal. usually its about 0C which is bad, wet snow is a killer.  i have silicon spay, do you think i can apply it on props?

when flying in colds or snow we put gaffer tape (or duck tape will do) over all holes of the main body to keep snow out and keep a bit warmer.
2017-1-22
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Dmitry_R
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lt Posted at 2017-1-22 20:46
Dmitry, you can try those mag balancing weights and cut them to weight and stick them to the camera. They have double-sided adhesive at the back that sticks like crazy. I'm also looking into getting a few ND filters for video.

HI lt, good idea with those mags, will try to find them down here.  
as for the filters i got Tiffen on amazon for 10-15 USD
2017-1-22
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lt
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Just returned from a trial run.
I can confirm that Jello still exist with the current solution but it is a lot less and borders on just acceptable.

With regards to the gimbal disconnect, I've had about 5 disconnects on the camera/gimbal whilst trying to do a mapping mission...

Inspite of this, I see that DJI have marked the issue as solved on their support site as well... Feel that this is a bit questionable!
2017-1-23
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lt
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Dug into data viewer just now and you can see the resonance around 30Hz is reduced by approximately 3 orders in magnitude in the X and Y axis (horisontal plane). Z Axis (vertical) vibration is down 2 orders in magnitude. Will add an additional 15 grams to the fixed plate tomorrow and try again. Another anomily I found in the data is that the M600 teleported upwards about 30 meters in altitude & pressure altitude and then teleported back down 30 meters in the space of a few milliseconds (No wonder I did not see it). Don't know what to make of this.

What I still do not understand is why the camera have these disconnects. It will work 7-10 times in a row and then continue to fail 3-5 times in a row during survey missions. Only feedback from DJI so far on this issue was upgrade firmware (check), check cables (can & video), try a different SD Card (tried 3 different sd cards), try another idevice (tried 3 different models), try another cable between idevice and RC (tried 5 different cables) as well as a lot of silence (about 12 days to be exact and then marking the issue as "SOLVED" on the support site and closing the issue for comments).

Accelerometer FFT

Accelerometer FFT
2017-1-23
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lt
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Just redid the propeller tensions (3rd time in 14 hours of flight) and would appreciate it if Tahoe Ed can chime in with the proper torque settings. Some customers do have access to various torque wrenches and would appreciate the information to ensure properly maintained crafts.
2017-1-23
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ricci2
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Dmitry_R Posted at 2017-1-22 21:05
Good idea with coating, Ricci!
it was -33C two weeks ago (Rus, Moscow region), but its abnormal. usually its about 0C which is bad, wet snow is a killer.  i have silicon spay, do you think i can apply it on props?

Hi Dmitry,
Carbon has a porous surface so if you really clean the props with Isopropyl alcohol or similar then spray  with silicone or more preferable teflon it should adhere but will probably need coating each outing.
There is a product that waterproofs material and its a two part application so has a hard repellent surface for much longer and can be used on electronics as well, tent waterproofing spray also works well.
Ricci
2017-1-23
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ricci2
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lt Posted at 2017-1-23 12:35
Just redid the propeller tensions (3rd time in 14 hours of flight) and would appreciate it if Tahoe Ed can chime in with the proper torque settings. Some customers do have access to various torque wrenches and would appreciate the information to ensure properly maintained crafts.

LT, The thorny issue of torque was raised many months ago and there was never a direct answer so I found a torque chart for the type of screws we use, I guess you already have charts like this but if not here it is. heres the thread.  http://forum.dji.com/thread-63995-1-1.html.

ricci
Metric torque chart.jpg

2017-1-23
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ricci2
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Greetings,
This is a new brace to help stop the lateral flexing in the camera support arms to help reduce rolling shutter. 6mm tube with threaded inserts fits in the channel nicely.
new brace bar.jpg

ricci
2017-1-23
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ricci2
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lt Posted at 2017-1-23 12:35
Just redid the propeller tensions (3rd time in 14 hours of flight) and would appreciate it if Tahoe Ed can chime in with the proper torque settings. Some customers do have access to various torque wrenches and would appreciate the information to ensure properly maintained crafts.

L.T,
I replaced two sets of props and the new ones had all bolts included and were coated in thread lock too so I did them up until they were just tighter than the originals props were and then backed them off a few flights later.
Do you have a second camera to plug into the hdmi port of the LB2. If they both cut out then it's the LB2 causing the issues and if its good footage then it's the x5 setup. forgive me for asking the obvious but was the cutout on the video footage on the sd card or the live feed.

ricci
2017-1-23
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lt
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Hi Ricci,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm thinking of borrowing a GoPro and mounting it pointing towards the X5 to see what the heck is going on there. This will also give indication of the possible LB2 issue you are talking about but the disconnect is quite strange. Basically the camera settings on left of the Go app changes to N/A. I can still move the gimbal around and still receive a video feed. It is just I cannot control anything camera related (ISO, Shutter, AF, Fstop). Once this happens and I exit the app and reopen, the whole camera control side is missing but I still have the feed as well as gimbal control. When in Map Pilot, I get a camera disconnected warning and then have to cancel the mission, RTH and restart to M600 to resume. I'm also getting blank photo's with no image data in them. Yesterday, Had 4 of these whilst mapping. One instance the app was able to continue, all other instances, the mission was a fail.

The fact that it comes and goes makes me think it is related to the connection between the gimbal and the bracket because it inconclusively improved yesterday when I removed the camera and reinstalled it. I did check the contacts and it seems to be making good contact that is not out of alignment.
2017-1-23
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Dmitry_R
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-23 13:00
Hi Dmitry,
Carbon has a porous surface so if you really clean the props with Isopropyl alcohol or similar then spray  with silicone or more preferable teflon it should adhere but will probably need coating each outing.
There is a product that waterproofs material and its a two part application so has a hard repellent surface for much longer and can be used on electronics as well, tent waterproofing spray also works well.

thanks for the info Ricci !

to DJI: the problem is not solved!!! did lots of tweaks and still have jello on the video. had to cancel a well payed job because of it.   
2017-1-24
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ricci2
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lt Posted at 2017-1-23 20:59
Hi Ricci,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm thinking of borrowing a GoPro and mounting it pointing towards the X5 to see what the heck is going on there. This will also give indication of the possible LB2 issue you are talking about but the disconnect is quite strange. Basically the camera settings on left of the Go app changes to N/A. I can still move the gimbal around and still receive a video feed. It is just I cannot control anything camera related (ISO, Shutter, AF, Fstop). Once this happens and I exit the app and reopen, the whole camera control side is missing but I still have the feed as well as gimbal control. When in Map Pilot, I get a camera disconnected warning and then have to cancel the mission, RTH and restart to M600 to resume. I'm also getting blank photo's with no image data in them. Yesterday, Had 4 of these whilst mapping. One instance the app was able to continue, all other instances, the mission was a fail.

LT,
When you look at the data from a flight with a disconnect is there a break in any of the information feeds.
I ask because if the data is present it looks like the issue might not be the camera but the transmission link systems, LB2, remote control unit broken antenna. I run a second controller to do just the video manipulation so easy to change it to master to eliminate controller.
I have an idea, can you get the new Ground-station software for your iPad, this has full data readout but not camera control, if you have a glitch free bunch of sessions and all info remains on the screen we can narrow down where to look. GS is ok, I was on the beta test and it is quite good as a route planner.
ricci
2017-1-24
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lt
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Hi Ricci

I will try to borrow an iPad to get the GS software and do a run. There are no break in the log file data. I'm beginning to suspect that abrupt movement by the aircraft when flying on autopilot cause the disconnects. I will keep analysing the data to see if I can correspond a disconnect with another parameter. Just getting tired of doing work on something that is not supposed to be a problem. Thinking a time billing invoice to DJI  would be in order.

I have just removed the Gimbal connector from the gimbal plate to check for some flexibility or play in the connection. There is a small amount of free play in the rotational axis but not enough to be causing problems with the spring contacts.
2017-1-24
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lt
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What must we do to get DJI interested in assisting and resolving the problems we are having here? (If you did forward the problem to a "higher" department - please tell us. Suspense and silence does not work well in this regard).
I do not want to spend my time troubleshooting. Since receiving the M600 and identifying the problems and logging a support request I have spent in the order of 124 hours trying to fix it, doing research and looking for solutions with absolutely none forthcoming from DJI. Would much rather spend it flying but at the moment I'm having no joy!


Thanks to Ricci and Dmitry and their inputs and feedback we are trying to find a solution but we seriously need some input from DJI at this moment. We can all confirm that the problem DO exist
2017-1-24
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DJI-Jamie
DJI team
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lt Posted at 2017-1-23 09:56
Dug into data viewer just now and you can see the resonance around 30Hz is reduced by approximately 3 orders in magnitude in the X and Y axis (horisontal plane). Z Axis (vertical) vibration is down 2 orders in magnitude. Will add an additional 15 grams to the fixed plate tomorrow and try again. Another anomily I found in the data is that the M600 teleported upwards about 30 meters in altitude & pressure altitude and then teleported back down 30 meters in the space of a few milliseconds (No wonder I did not see it). Don't know what to make of this.

What I still do not understand is why the camera have these disconnects. It will work 7-10 times in a row and then continue to fail 3-5 times in a row during survey missions. Only feedback from DJI so far on this issue was upgrade firmware (check), check cables (can & video), try a different SD Card (tried 3 different sd cards), try another idevice (tried 3 different models), try another cable between idevice and RC (tried 5 different cables) as well as a lot of silence (about 12 days to be exact and then marking the issue as "SOLVED" on the support site and closing the issue for comments).

Given what you have already done to reduce the vibration from the aircraft itself, the only other thing that could be affecting the shots is the pitch motor itself on the gimbal. Is there anyone that you now, or a local dealer, who could allow for you to connect this camera to either an OSMO or an Inspire 1? These gimbals are supposed to be able to handle aircraft vibration to a certain extent. If the motor is weak or not working completely, it can attribute to the vibration.

Just for future reference, it does help to hit 'reply' when you're responding to a particular post. That way, they can receive a notification to check for a response.

Regarding the disconnects, do you notice whether the iOS devices are getting warm or hot when this happens (since you mentioned that this happens even when the unit is stationary)? While manually selecting the channels are not ideal, does it actually keep it from disconnecting?
2017-1-24
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lt
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Hi Jamie, thanks for the reply. I am trying to get a hold of someone that has an Inspire 1 to test the kit and identify the root of the problem. Being in South Africa it is a bit of a problem because of the availability. Have to travel 250km to the nearest reseller.

Just some feedback: I've disassembled the whole gimbal bracket and reassembled it and the bracket seems to be a lot more rigid. I will go out today and have a test flight to see if the problem is still there. About the disconnect: It does not happen when flying manually anymore. It only happens when on autopilot missions such as the mapping apps (I've seen the same in the log files and the craft is being flown much harder when in this flymode leading to more abrupt movements than ever possible when in manual mode)

I will give feedback as soon as I'm back from the demo today. Hopefully problems would be resolved by the increased stiffness.
2017-1-24
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Dmitry_R
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DJI-Jamie Posted at 2017-1-24 16:08
Given what you have already done to reduce the vibration from the aircraft itself, the only other thing that could be affecting the shots is the pitch motor itself on the gimbal. Is there anyone that you now, or a local dealer, who could allow for you to connect this camera to either an OSMO or an Inspire 1? These gimbals are supposed to be able to handle aircraft vibration to a certain extent. If the motor is weak or not working completely, it can attribute to the vibration.

Just for future reference, it does help to hit 'reply' when you're responding to a particular post. That way, they can receive a notification to check for a response.

Hey Jamie, thank you for the feedback.
i do hope that you will help. I fly for aerial video only for few years and my research show that DJI is the best. Your Phantoms is beautiful, i did lots of amazing projects using your aircrafts and i wonted to go further. i work as a free-lance DP for BBC, National Geografic, ARTE, CBS, ZDF, NHK, etc. and i need a reliable tool that i can take out from a pelicase and shoot… freefly was an option but your solution was much better regarding to online research. M600 is amazing aircraft, solid as a rock, tripod in the sky, but DJI needs to improve it.  there are too much problems with X5 (or X5Raw as i have).
the owner of this topic, lt and a lot of people have same problems that DJI is not helping in solving. if there is no solution,  you just say so, and i will not spend my time.
Thanks,

Dmitry
2017-1-25
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lt
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Here are some more feedback from flying today: By reassembling the whole gimbal bracket (Think I've overtightened all the screws because it is now as rigid as the airframe), I have eliminated Jello (I would say 98-99%) when shooting upto a downwards angle of about 70 degrees.  With this now stable, I have a point of reference to continue testing to sort out the other problems and I can report the following: When filming straight down, I do have the same horrible and dreaded Jello as posted in the first video of this topic. I was filming a sports event where the guys want to analyse their team moves in debrief. This also made me realise that if this is present when filming downward, It does translate and confirm that the camera disconnect is related to vibration rather than any other factor. Earlier this morning I did a mapping mission of around 40 hectares and had to cancel at around 30% complete because of the disconnect. When I had a look at the SD Card the last photo taken was a blank photo with only the Exif metadata captured in the JPEG and the rest of the file corrupt. Before we go on a "SD Card error" mission I would like to state that I have the same issue on 3 different SD cards (which includes the one supplied with the camera). I have even set the mapping app to 3 second intervals instead of the "recommended" 2.5 seconds to give the camera enough time to save the photos as this was my first suspicion. This also confirms the vibration present. I will add another stiffening plate (similar to the one I stuck to the front of the gimbal bracket) to the back of the plate to eliminate vibrations tomorrow. I also got hold of a GoPro camera that I will mount to record video of the gimbal in flight. This should help me analyse and hopefully closer towards a working product. I do feel that it is not my responsibility to sort these problems out without any concrete input being received from DJI but having made the investment I HAVE to continue my efforts to get a working product. This is almost now like buying a new car only to find out that you have to balance the crankshaft without any guidance from the manufacturer.
I agree with Dmitry on the fact that the M600 is an amazing aircraft almost to the point where it is boring to fly because it does it so good and it provides the pilot with unmatched confidence (You can use this in your marketing efforts).
I'm just another victim of the system currently in place to serve it's customers. Jamie - this is not pointed at you - I know you are doing your best but you are also being failed by DJI from a support perspective. The forum (and I have mentioned this before) is a good place where semi- and inexperienced people can find answers to teething problems and limited technical queries but here we have had 2/3 extremely technical people joining this discussion (including myself) as well as a pro photographer and I do feel that the root of the problem and the solution will ultimately only be found if this if forwarded and expedited as a critical issue to the R&D and Technical guys at DJI because it is DJI's responsibility. They should chime in and ask to analyse logfiles to see if any parameter is out of spec to determine what the heck is going on here. The customer is never supposed to dig this deep into the technical stuff unless it is marketed as a build and fix your own problems drone to be built by people hacking stuff together.

I hope you understand my reasoning in this regards.
2017-1-25
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ricci2
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lt Posted at 2017-1-25 11:38
Here are some more feedback from flying today: By reassembling the whole gimbal bracket (Think I've overtightened all the screws because it is now as rigid as the airframe), I have eliminated Jello (I would say 98-99%) when shooting upto a downwards angle of about 70 degrees.  With this now stable, I have a point of reference to continue testing to sort out the other problems and I can report the following: When filming straight down, I do have the same horrible and dreaded Jello as posted in the first video of this topic. I was filming a sports event where the guys want to analyse their team moves in debrief. This also made me realise that if this is present when filming downward, It does translate and confirm that the camera disconnect is related to vibration rather than any other factor. Earlier this morning I did a mapping mission of around 40 hectares and had to cancel at around 30% complete because of the disconnect. When I had a look at the SD Card the last photo taken was a blank photo with only the Exif metadata captured in the JPEG and the rest of the file corrupt. Before we go on a "SD Card error" mission I would like to state that I have the same issue on 3 different SD cards (which includes the one supplied with the camera). I have even set the mapping app to 3 second intervals instead of the "recommended" 2.5 seconds to give the camera enough time to save the photos as this was my first suspicion. This also confirms the vibration present. I will add another stiffening plate (similar to the one I stuck to the front of the gimbal bracket) to the back of the plate to eliminate vibrations tomorrow. I also got hold of a GoPro camera that I will mount to record video of the gimbal in flight. This should help me analyse and hopefully closer towards a working product. I do feel that it is not my responsibility to sort these problems out without any concrete input being received from DJI but having made the investment I HAVE to continue my efforts to get a working product. This is almost now like buying a new car only to find out that you have to balance the crankshaft without any guidance from the manufacturer.
I agree with Dmitry on the fact that the M600 is an amazing aircraft almost to the point where it is boring to fly because it does it so good and it provides the pilot with unmatched confidence (You can use this in your marketing efforts).
I'm just another victim of the system currently in place to serve it's customers. Jamie - this in not pointed at you - I know you are doing your best but you are also being failed by DJI from a support perspective. The forum (and I have mentioned this before) is a good place where semi- and inexperienced people can find answers to teething problems and limited technical queries but here we have had 2/3 extremely technical people joining this discussion (including myself) as well as a pro photographer and I do feel that the root of the problem and the solution will ultimately only be found if this if forwarded and expedited as a critical issue to the R&D and Technical guys at DJI because it is DJI's responsibility. They should chime in and ask to analyse logfiles to see if any parameter is out of spec to determine what the heck is going on here. The customer is never supposed to dig this deep into the technical stuff unless it is marketed as a build and fix your own problems drone to be built by people hacking stuff together.

LT, just read your last report, great concise info. I think I might of found an issue that could be causing some of the rolling shutter when the camera points down, actually its two things but one is engineering geometry that we can't fix but the other upon inspection is a tolerances issue. I have made mention there is play on my camera where the locator tongue on the back of the camera connection has a few mm of movement, this movement translates a force vector in an all but vertical direction (craft upright). with the camera horizontal  the force is pushing the sensor on the horizontal plane, however point the camera down and the same horizontal force now moves the camera sensor left and right exaggerating the rolling shutter movement. most of my technical flying is done with the camera pointing down where it is at its worst. what I am saying is I can't compromise so it has to be sorted but because the complex nature of all the various interfaces I don't see DJI coming up with a bolt on fix, I feel it needs a gimbal redesign to strengthen the gimbal arms and larger motors. can you see if you have any movement on the locating tongue because it might just be my setup, I flipped it on its side to get better visuals and access when applying a force. if you have movement could you be inventive and pack to see if it improves when you are out next.
cheers

Ricci
2017-1-25
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lt
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-25 18:42
can you see if you have any movement on the locating tongue because it might just be my setup

Hi Ricci. I had a look at the locating tongue and the only fix I could come up with for this is to dip the tip of the plate in latex to create some sort of a boot to take up the space and slack. Latex is not ideal because it's too soft and comes off easily. I might try the same with some gasket sealant which I think will work better. What I have found with my installation is that the top motor that locates in this is about 0.1mm from the plate and this would also add to the jello if the camera moves around and bumps into the plate.

Thanks for your feedback.
Other tests I intend on doing today is to add another stiffning plate and maybe create some sort of a gasket to put between the plate and the gimbal where is is touching the plate (just behind the connector) as this would also help in addressing the play in the gap of the tongue.

Rgds, LT

Latex boot

Latex boot

Latex boot

Latex boot
IMG_5998.jpg
2017-1-25
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ricci2
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lt Posted at 2017-1-25 22:17
Hi Ricci. I had a look at the locating tongue and the only fix I could come up with for this is to dip the tip of the plate in latex to create some sort of a boot to take up the space and slack. Latex is not ideal because it's too soft and comes off easily. I might try the same with some gasket sealant which I think will work better. What I have found with my installation is that the top motor that locates in this is about 0.1mm from the plate and this would also add to the jello if the camera moves around and bumps into the plate.

Thanks for your feedback.

Greetings LT,
I found another route to fill the gap. I had some felt sticky pads and then sliced the back off to about 1mm aprox, then stuck it to the motor top adjacent to the connector. This has two benefits in that it takes up the play in the tongue because it touches the top-plate and it also pretensions the camera connection acting as a movement damper.Have a good flight. We should offer our services to DJI as Post development service designers  (P.D.S.D) if all our efforts work.

ricci

tongue spacer

tongue spacer


2017-1-26
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lt
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-26 05:21
Greetings LT,
I found another route to fill the gap. I had some felt sticky pads and then sliced the back off to about 1mm aprox, then stuck it to the motor top adjacent to the connector. This has two benefits in that it takes up the play in the tongue because it touches the top-plate and it also pretensions the camera connection acting as a movement damper.Have a good flight. We should offer our services to DJI as Post development service designers  (P.D.S.D) if all our efforts work.

Hi Ricci. Agree with you fully on the pre-tension. I added a latex gasket for testing but think your concept would be the better one. I have some adhesive velcro lying around and will try it out.

Like your idea about the post design services. It almost feels that DJI is hoping we find a solution because they don't have the answer for the problem. Really feel 400+ views and 65 replies (3 from DJI) and discussions between a few loyal customers on the problem would warrant a reply and full investigation from DJI or maybe they are thinking that these customers are just whining too much imagining they are experiencing a problem that according to them cannot exist.

Anyways, enough of the pieces of my mind that is growing in frustration towards them. I was grounded today because of wind. Will hopefully get some testing tomorrow. Also got a GoPro but being in SA and living in the countryside, I am waiting for a bracket to mount the GoPro as well as a micro HDMI cable +adapter to get a live feed to the RC. This should allow me to check and better understand the movement of the sprung plate... and hopefully spot the source of the vibration/resonance.
2017-1-26
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DJI-Jamie
DJI team
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United States
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lt Posted at 2017-1-25 11:38
Here are some more feedback from flying today: By reassembling the whole gimbal bracket (Think I've overtightened all the screws because it is now as rigid as the airframe), I have eliminated Jello (I would say 98-99%) when shooting upto a downwards angle of about 70 degrees.  With this now stable, I have a point of reference to continue testing to sort out the other problems and I can report the following: When filming straight down, I do have the same horrible and dreaded Jello as posted in the first video of this topic. I was filming a sports event where the guys want to analyse their team moves in debrief. This also made me realise that if this is present when filming downward, It does translate and confirm that the camera disconnect is related to vibration rather than any other factor. Earlier this morning I did a mapping mission of around 40 hectares and had to cancel at around 30% complete because of the disconnect. When I had a look at the SD Card the last photo taken was a blank photo with only the Exif metadata captured in the JPEG and the rest of the file corrupt. Before we go on a "SD Card error" mission I would like to state that I have the same issue on 3 different SD cards (which includes the one supplied with the camera). I have even set the mapping app to 3 second intervals instead of the "recommended" 2.5 seconds to give the camera enough time to save the photos as this was my first suspicion. This also confirms the vibration present. I will add another stiffening plate (similar to the one I stuck to the front of the gimbal bracket) to the back of the plate to eliminate vibrations tomorrow. I also got hold of a GoPro camera that I will mount to record video of the gimbal in flight. This should help me analyse and hopefully closer towards a working product. I do feel that it is not my responsibility to sort these problems out without any concrete input being received from DJI but having made the investment I HAVE to continue my efforts to get a working product. This is almost now like buying a new car only to find out that you have to balance the crankshaft without any guidance from the manufacturer.
I agree with Dmitry on the fact that the M600 is an amazing aircraft almost to the point where it is boring to fly because it does it so good and it provides the pilot with unmatched confidence (You can use this in your marketing efforts).
I'm just another victim of the system currently in place to serve it's customers. Jamie - this is not pointed at you - I know you are doing your best but you are also being failed by DJI from a support perspective. The forum (and I have mentioned this before) is a good place where semi- and inexperienced people can find answers to teething problems and limited technical queries but here we have had 2/3 extremely technical people joining this discussion (including myself) as well as a pro photographer and I do feel that the root of the problem and the solution will ultimately only be found if this if forwarded and expedited as a critical issue to the R&D and Technical guys at DJI because it is DJI's responsibility. They should chime in and ask to analyse logfiles to see if any parameter is out of spec to determine what the heck is going on here. The customer is never supposed to dig this deep into the technical stuff unless it is marketed as a build and fix your own problems drone to be built by people hacking stuff together.

Since a lot of this is while it's being used with autopilot mapping software, is there any reduction in vibration when flying manually?
2017-1-26
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Hi Jamie,
Jello is present when flying manually. I had disconnects out of the box when flying manually but this now only happens when flying on auto. With the efforts we have put in, we managed to reduce Jello quite significantly. It is now most noticeable with the camera pointing downwards (even when hovering) but dare I say "barely" visible when shooting towards the horizon (I have captured and trialed around 200Gb of video footage with different camera settings). The reasoning around this is that both issues are related. Even though they are separate issues, the Jello is caused by vibration and the vibration results in the disconnects.
I've been grounded today due to windy conditions. I added another stiffening plate to the rear of the CF bracket that holds the forwards pointing arms which I want to test tomorrow. I also want to try out the felt patch/velcro Ricci added to the top of the gimbal on the camera. I noticed that there is a possibility that gap between the aluminum plate holding the quick release connector and the camera can create these vibrations when the two touch in resonance.
Rgds
LT
2017-1-26
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lt Posted at 2017-1-26 08:37
Hi Ricci. Agree with you fully on the pre-tension. I added a latex gasket for testing but think your concept would be the better one. I have some adhesive velcro lying around and will try it out.

Like your idea about the post design services. It almost feels that DJI is hoping we find a solution because they don't have the answer for the problem. Really feel 400+ views and 65 replies (3 from DJI) and discussions between a few loyal customers on the problem would warrant a reply and full investigation from DJI or maybe they are thinking that these customers are just whining too much imagining they are experiencing a problem that according to them cannot exist.

Greetings Lt,
pm me if the pdsd is something we might pursue. I had in the M600 a mini hdmi to usb A, connector, so if you want to run a GoPro to hdmi I can show you the output cables, you just need a usb A female and a usb mini B connector for the GoPro and and mod the cables.. let me know.

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To all concerned about X5 and X3 rolling shutter and vibration.
I have just looked at the specs of the new Z30 industrial zoom camera DJI are offering and although it sounds good in the blurb the only benefits are de-fogging and a few software enhancements, you would be better off getting the X5S which is far superior to all the range at present in the specs anyway and the fact you can have aftermarket lenses makes this the camera to have.
Now L.T, Dmitry, and myself have been experimenting to reduce rolling shutter in the X5 cameras on the M600 with no support from DJI and I think I know why, The X4s, X5S and z30 all have one thing in common,
Improved vibration damping with "three damper balls"  there is no incentive for DJI to fix a problem they have dealt with in later iterations  of the cameras.
We are on our own boys or buy a new camera.
Question is anybody having issues with rolling shutter on the X5S?

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2017-1-27
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-27 06:50
To all concerned about X5 and X3 rolling shutter and vibration.
I have just looked at the specs of the new Z30 industrial zoom camera DJI are offering and although it sounds good in the blurb the only benefits are de-fogging and a few software enhancements, you would be better off getting the X5S which is far superior to all the range at present in the specs anyway and the fact you can have aftermarket lenses makes this the camera to have.
Now L.T, Dmitry, and myself have been experimenting to reduce rolling shutter in the X5 cameras on the M600 with no support from DJI and I think I know why, The X4s, X5S and z30 all have one thing in common,

Hi Ricci

I'll managed to rig a GoPro pointed on the whole gimbal bracket and camera assembly. I'll try to capture and upload a video tomorrow morning that will assist in analysing the way the whole setup moves around. I was grounded by wind yesterday and we had rain today. I managed a quick trial today with what you have done as mentioned in post #63. Did the felt sticker (similar to what you have done but on mine the top gimbal motor angle is not exactly parallel to the aluminum plate - will try to capture a photo using a light source at the back to show the alignment) as well as the soft part of Velcro as well as the foam gasket material you find in enclosures and none of them worked at improving the video. It only seems to transmit hard vibrations to the footage. Took a video with the iPhone7+ of the M600 whilst the camera were focused downwards and you can see the camera dancing around like a drunk amateur ballerina. I think the problem with this route is basically (Even though the pre-tension concept works and I had a disconnect whilst on the ground because it changes the dynamic structure of the mounting) that it would put more strain on the gimbal connector and wear it down quickly. Don't even want to think about the Jello that would be present when the connector is worn down with a lot of freeplay present.

As it stands, I'm thinking of trying to design and manufacture a bracket similar to what you are mentioning with the Z30/X5S... with only 3 legs down and constructing a plate that would fit this with the gimbal connector. My feeling is that this type of mounting would break up most of the tri-axial vibration because of the triangular mounting. Maybe we should combine out efforts through the pdsd on this (will pm you this). Alternatively we could go extremely high tech (similar to some of the concepts they use in F1) and develop a tuned dynamic damping system to eliminate the vibrations. A physical gyro stabilised system could also work.

I'm also still questioning the reasoning behind the function of the carbon fiber plate that mounts between the carbon rods on the M600 and the arms (My opinion is that it only provides real estate to stick accessories to and a breeding ground to transmit resonance to the gimbal). This plate could just as well be completely eliminated by a properly designed arm that mounts directly on the CF rods and connect via the vibration dampers to the gimbal bracket.

If the issue is related tolerances going out of spec and related and dependent on how tight the screws are tightened, I think most people owning the M600 and have an X5/R are in for a serious surprise at some point because the if the theory holds, the optimum operational envelope is too small.

I'm also still trying to figure out why the lead weights have a better effect (as per photo's in #62) than mounting an 90 degrees angle aluminum strip at the back. This iteration was ultimately the best solution I could (and dare I say accidentally) find).

Maybe we should coordinate a visit to the design department to get more answers.

Once again thanks for your input and I sincerely hope DJI are also secretly (without telling us) looking into the issue to find a solution.

Regards
LT
2017-1-27
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lt Posted at 2017-1-27 10:03
Hi Ricci

I'll managed to rig a GoPro pointed on the whole gimbal bracket and camera assembly. I'll try to capture and upload a video tomorrow morning that will assist in analysing the way the whole setup moves around. I was grounded by wind yesterday and we had rain today. I managed a quick trial today with what you have done as mentioned in post #63. Did the felt sticker (similar to what you have done but on mine the top gimbal motor angle is not exactly parallel to the aluminum plate - will try to capture a photo using a light source at the back to show the alignment) as well as the soft part of Velcro as well as the foam gasket material you find in enclosures and none of them worked at improving the video. It only seems to transmit hard vibrations to the footage. Took a video with the iPhone7+ of the M600 whilst the camera were focused downwards and you can see the camera dancing around like a drunk amateur ballerina. I think the problem with this route is basically (Even though the pre-tension concept works and I had a disconnect whilst on the ground because it changes the dynamic structure of the mounting) that it would put more strain on the gimbal connector and wear it down quickly. Don't even want to think about the Jello that would be present when the connector is worn down with a lot of freeplay present.

Good test today LT, with the GoPro and I might have an option why the lead across the rear of the plate helped. if you look at the location of the camera mount on the bottom plate its on the fwd leading edge so maybe the lead is a counterbalance for the camera??
2017-1-27
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-27 11:00
Good test today LT, with the GoPro and I might have an option why the lead across the rear of the plate helped. if you look at the location of the camera mount on the bottom plate its on the fwd leading edge so maybe the lead is a counterbalance for the camera??

Thanks for the feedback Ricci.

It makes complete sense. Inertia is then key here. I'll play around with the weight added. Previously had 85 grams mounted as far back as possible. Will trial 100 g tomorrow. Think it is all about finding the spot inside operation envelope of the design where it would work as advertised. I've also been thinking/speculating about the RTK mounted on top of the M600 that might cause an additional moment force when the M600 tries to stabilize. Don't want to venture into Bode diagrams of the control system yet, but if the A3 tries to fix this moment force and oscillates, it can also be a source of vibration especially because the RTK keeps the craft true to holding point (I'm able to hover at 2-5 cm above ground without the landing gear making contact with the ground). This however does not seem to be the real problem (might be a contributing factor) and if other users without RTK mounted above the CoG also have the problem. The M600 may be designed with a payload of around 5-6kg and the minimal weight of the X5 might also contribute. Maybe adding 1-2kg payload to the carbon fiber plate of the gimbal bracket will also help (bringing the vibration and natural frequencies and intensities down) at the expense of battery life (not ideal but if it works, it can be seen as a compromised workaround and not a solution).

Feeling frustrated: Must reiterate to DJI that I never intended or willfully signed up to investing this much time at the expense of earning income to get this issue sorted. Very few people buy the M600 for "fun" and "recreation". If you are selling equipment that needs this much fiddling to make it work, please change your marketing strategy. I really want to believe that this will be sorted out from your/DJI's side, but being a client that purchased equipment after extensive research and decided to climb the DJI bandwagon I'm starting to feel disgusted by the way it is currently being handled. This is also compounded by the fact that I am also completely ignored on the support site. Had a support ticket on the same issue marked as "SOLVED" after about a month of ignorance whilst it is still not resolved. The other tickets logged have now been completely ignored by support for more than 4 and 7 days respectively. Unrelated but simptomatic of what I'm experiencing: I've sent an enquiry about the Agras to the email posted on the website which has been unanswered since 16 January (We have a few customers that are interested in purchasing but if this is the way things are going I refuse to recommend the products and they are all following the way this issue is currently being handled)

I do not want to keep complaining about the problems I have. I want to go around confidently promoting DJI's products to other people as well as have be able to use it without worrying when the next error will occur! Please give me a reason to do the latter!

ps. If DJI can design a drone that performs as well as the M600 does, I'm sure DJI are capable of finding a solution to the Jello and disconnects experienced.
I hope you understand my point and perspective.
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had the thermal camera out today so took some vid of the X5, you can really see what parts gets the warmest.

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2017-1-28
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Finally got some flying in thanks to a break in the weather. Here are some footage taking with a GoPro pointed towards the gimbal in flight. The is some movement but I assume nothing to warrant the issues. Biggest movement of the Gimbal plate is with the camera pointed downwards. I've added 85 grams on the carbon fiber plate as well as the aluminium 9mm angle plate and added a 10g towards the back of the gimbal plate. You can also see the bracket stuck to the front. This seems to cure most of the issues. I finally did manage to complete a survey mission without camera disconnect. Still don't know if this is a fluke and I will report as soon as it happens again.
The weirdest thing that happened (just before the flight) was that I had 8 disconnects with the M600 shortly after powerup having to reboot everytime. N/A showed up in the Go app whilst waiting for the RTK to get a fix. Eventually got it going by turning the M600 with the camera pointing away from the sun and waiting 3 or so minutes and I suspect that it might be temperature related. The M600 was standing in the sun for around 35 minutes before. This leads me to believe that the disconnects I'm having is Gimbal bracket tolerance/vibration related. Will continue the efforts.

ps. Ricci great work on the thermal image of the X5.
2017-1-29
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lt Posted at 2017-1-29 10:11
Finally got some flying in thanks to a break in the weather. Here are some footage taking with a GoPro pointed towards the gimbal in flight. The is some movement but I assume nothing to warrant the issues. Biggest movement of the Gimbal plate is with the camera pointed downwards. I've added 85 grams on the carbon fiber plate as well as the aluminium 9mm angle plate and added a 10g towards the back of the gimbal plate. You can also see the bracket stuck to the front. This seems to cure most of the issues. I finally did manage to complete a survey mission without camera disconnect. Still don't know if this is a fluke and I will report as soon as it happens again.
The weirdest thing that happened (just before the flight) was that I had 8 disconnects with the M600 shortly after powerup having to reboot everytime. N/A showed up in the Go app whilst waiting for the RTK to get a fix. Eventually got it going by turning the M600 with the camera pointing away from the sun and waiting 3 or so minutes and I suspect that it might be temperature related. The M600 was standing in the sun for around 35 minutes before. This leads me to believe that the disconnects I'm having is Gimbal bracket tolerance/vibration related. Will continue the efforts.
https://youtu.be/g4FGLFPHb40

Hello LT,
I have some footage very similar and I have to say the bottom plate moves so much less.
I don't know if you have done the test of almost locking the rubber balls solid with bolts, if not it might be worth running that same test again.
Are you using autopilot or go app?
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2017-1-30
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-30 15:54
Hello LT,
I have some footage very similar and I have to say the bottom plate moves so much less.
I don't know if you have done the test of almost locking the rubber balls solid with bolts, if not it might be worth running that same test again.

Hi Ricci

I tried locking the balls together but this didn't work and it was probably due to the fact that those arms were still able to move around (this was before stiffening the CF plate). With the increased stiffness of the Carbon plate, Since the video I added a rubber band pre-tensioning the two rear arms together (You could still see some movement in the GoPro video shared) which also seems to improve the situation. I'll try it again sometime.

I'm planning to do another trial mapping trial today with the current configuration. If I run into problems, I'll try locking them together.
I'm using Map Pilot which I found the least aggressive in flying the M600 for mapping runs. Most of the other apps on the market is not as graceful in flying the grids. As for Autopilot, I do have the app but to mapping missions require a lot more preplanning because you cannot set the overlaps beforehand and have to manually adjust the swaths to have the desired overlaps.
Map Pilot have good support as well and replies on questions on their support forum typically takes around 15 minutes to 1 hour. Very impressive I must say. DJI take notes on this please!

As for bracket design, I've had a good look at the difference between the bracket made for the Inspire and the M600 and this seriously makes me want to design and manufacture a custom arm setup that ties to front pair together into one piece and the same for the rear pair.

Regards
LT
2017-1-30
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Feedback from today's runs are as follow:
1. 1 Camera/gimbal disconnect whilst hovering (just before starting to shoot). Had to RTH and cycle power.
2. After landing, had 3 disconnects in succession whilst on the ground and waiting for RTK signal.
3. Eventually after 4th try, was able to take off and had no more problems with camera/gimbal connection issues and flew around 55 minutes (2 sets of batteries) with no problems at all.
4. After recharging, and setting up again, had 2 disconnects in succession (each one cleared by cycling power and reoccurring whilst waiting for RTK signal)
5. 3rd Power cycle, managed to fly 40 minutes with no problems.

6 disconnects in total
THIS IS HARDLY RELIABLE
I'm beginning to suspect that the Gimbal connector/connection is the actual source of the problem rather than anything else which I would classify a hardware problem. All the tweaking done to reduce Jello have changed the dynamics with the problem mostly (1 exception) occurring with the craft stationary and waiting for RTK signal. This is what I would call warranty replacement territory and I think DJI should step in here.

As for the Jello - still noticeable but bearable and I would say 95-98% gone when compared to the first video uploaded. It is only present when transitioning from stationary to full motion and whilst hovering. If there is play (difficult to determine by hand) due to small variations in manufacturing tolerances being out might be the actual root of all the headaches I've been experiencing.
2017-1-31
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lt Posted at 2017-1-31 11:38
Feedback from today's runs are as follow:
1. 1 Camera/gimbal disconnect whilst hovering (just before starting to shoot). Had to RTH and cycle power.
2. After landing, had 3 disconnects in succession whilst on the ground and waiting for RTK signal.

Hi LT,
well done for the tests today, that is dedication to finding a problem......

These disconnects sound like a problem I used to have with a bad cable to the big led and usb connector, sometimes it would start up and see the x5, controller and others it would not for a few tries. DJI sent me a replacement cable and usb unit as they are moulded  together., It did fix the problem.
I think I have mentioned about putting the GoPro into the hdmi on the LB2 and remove the X5, your still get live footage and can eliminate the LB2 and electronics back to the controller id you don't get any disconnects. If you do have disconnect with X5 removed it has to be the LB2.
You get disconnect with the go app? Do you get them with Autopilot?
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2017-1-31
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ricci2 Posted at 2017-1-31 16:06
Hi LT,
well done for the tests today, that is dedication to finding a problem......

Hi Ricci,

thanks for the feedback. I'm still waiting for the cable to arrive to test the gopro through HDMI/LB2. If this gives the same problem, I'll be able to eliminate one more possible problem. The problem with the disconnects is that there is no break in the video feed and I am still able to control the gimbal. It is just the settings for the camera that change to N/A and after that happens, not being able to capture and photos or video.
The same happens in all the other apps. Map Pilot gives a "Camera disconnected" or "Cannot change settings on camera" error. Autopilot also just stops taking footage but the feed remains.
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Have you seen the number of views LT. I think fellow users are interested to see the outcome.
Dji, step up and help LT please, he is proving a worthy customer that wants to remain loyal, plus he is like a dog with a nice bone, I would like him on my side in a battle!  how about you organise a pickup and study his craft and give him a nice new working one please........admins (DJI Jamie) pay attention to a dedicated owner who contributes so much time and effort and money into correcting what you are selling.

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LT,
I have had my first flight today for many days and I have discovered the strangest thing. when I fly fwd, i.e. red arms away from me I get rolling shutter under full speed or at least 75% throttle, camera facing fwd; however If I go full throttle to the rear green lights facing me there is no or very little Rolling shutter. I repeated this many times and the same result. This is getting interesting.

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2017-2-1
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