The cause of flyaways is >99% pilot error (the remaining small percentage being inadequacies in safety provision / failure to account for black swan events e.g. IMU FW problem pre Jan 15 2015 for Inspire 1)  and in turn this is because people do not read the manual. The thing that has changed dramatically in 2 years is that when enthusiasts who had to figure out how to put their flight controllers and GPS systems and batteries and... together to get a short flight, people also made mistakes but kicked themselves and learned. Now, we have a whole new generation of flyers who have never flown before, who don't believe in reading manuals, but who are very ready to call the manufacturer names when they make elementary mistakes. Not nice but this is the price of 'ease of use' marketing and success.

I would not say 99%, but I agree that not knowing how to fly the craft in Atti mode is often the cause. I think before flying a drone of this size people should learn how to fly a small drone like this: (http://www.banggood.com/Cheerson ... r-RTF-p-926614.html).

Now, I still think Dji has to fix the problem with the compass ASAP, right now you can't rely on having GPS all the time, so that is a product issue, not a pilot issue. If the drone has GPS lock (with more than 6 satellites) it can't just drift away because of an issue in the compass.

Also that prevents RTH to work, which is also an important feature to have in emergencies.  

Hi Mike

I agree that one should know your craft, set your Home, Calibrate diligently, read the manual, learn to fly, all these things.
Sudden drift and unexpected ATTI should not scare us, we should be in control.
My simple solution is bugger Auto take-off, I take off manually, and aggressively, and let it hover at 20m or so, then I fiddle with the gear, let it get GPS lock etc, and manually keep it more or less in one spot until it gets lock.  As long as there is a bit of space to drift, all is good, we need to control our craft.
Staying calm is another biggie.
I lost drift control indoors the other day in a confined factory filming situation, because I went just too high for the optics to work, and boom, its out of control.  Just by staying calm, looking at the craft and letting my muscle memory work the sticks, ignoring the iPad etc, I could regain orientation, and drift control without hitting walls etc.
This is something we as pilots should PRACTICE, and get good at.

HOWEVER

This losing signal at the peripheral of our flying radius, and the Inspire taking off in an opposite direction, this is not pilot error, and that shit needs sorting NOW.  It plain and simple software bugs.  If a homepoint is set and active, and the Inspire decides to "RTH", starts in the right direction, then does a 180 and fly away and the Inspire is lost at sea,..  well...

Muscadel Posted at 2015-2-20 17:15
Hi Mike

I agree that one should know your craft, set your Home, Calibrate diligently, read the manu ...

Hi Muscadel,

Thanks for your post. Common things are common, rare errors and exceptions are interesting but what happens on this forum is that newbies get scared off and less technical flyers get anxious for no reason.

You seem to be referring to a Malaysian flight (hmm ...) which was very actively discussed in an enthusiast's forum http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2280074&page=1238

Yes, there is some concern about the programming involved in an edge of control situation where compass failure could have also been a factor in addition to loss of control signal, GPS or both. I have put forth a logical theory about what could have happened in another post there and Tahoe Ed from DJI suggests that the loss of home point co-ordinates is something that has been flagged.

The flier was clearly pushing the limits and if you want to do so, does it make more sense to 1) do it over an open field where you can trace the aircraft 2) put a GPS tracker in the craft or best still 3) create a RF attenuator (how about a simple copper mesh cage around the transmitter antennae)  that reduces transmit power to and then do crazy things to see if RTH activates properly. While doing this, why not fly to Russia and see if the aircraft survives lightning bolts:  http://www.engadget.com/2015/02/ ... ower-drone-footage/ to see if can withstand a lightning strike

For people who want to push limits I can forsee a day when, as a result of such behaviour (and then posting it for the world to see instead of through channels where the issue can be fixed), firmware electronic geofencing that cannot be over-ridden without conceding liability to prosecution will be implemented. DJI has already done this in part as a result of the White House Phantom event. Is this the flying environment we want to create? If not, lets have fun but think about making accommodations for imperfect equipment so that we CAN continue to push limits thoughtfully.

It is certainly useful to post info on negative events  but more needs to be done to ask: what could I have done to avert that?  before kicking blame to someone else.

Mike-the-cat,

That's exactly the position of the DJI CEO. Blame amateur use of a sophisticated device. While I agree with this position to some extent, it's still a "cop out." Let's face it, they have great products, extremely innovative and sophisticated, many users; and shit will happen.

How often to you hear Apple product complaints when children drop and break their expensive IPhones. it's 100% user fault.  

The difference is a phone drop is significantly less dramatic than an Inspire crashing into a garage door, and the crash, unlike a drop, is attributable to manufacturer defect. DJI has to "own it," and they rarely do.

These products take time to develop, with growing pains among users. Not fair to cast 99% blame on pilot error. I fell sorry for every user that has lost an Inspire to non pilot error.

Mike-the-cat Posted at 2015-2-20 21:03
Hi Muscadel,

Thanks for your post. Common things are common, rare errors and exceptions are intere ...

totally agree

I have to agree with the Original Posters here.  I have been active in this industry for 30 years and the last 8 years working for the largest heli retailer in the US.  I have seen this with all the Multi Rotor aircraft that use GPS lock for positional hold.   Maybe not 99.9% but I would say about 75% to 80% is most likely the result of either GPS signal being lost due to what ever reason, or never actually being established and then the aircraft drifts with the wind and the pilot freaks out and can't get it back.   

Believe me, if you are in a 10 or 15 MPH wind...it may not seem that much, but the aircraft is going to drift with the wind at that speed and quickly feels like it is out of control or "flying away" on its own.  Hitting Return to Home isn't going to do anything if the aircraft has lost or never a good GPS lock.

As others that have been in the RC hobby a long time, I also recommendation getting a smaller, less expensive "NON-GPS" enabled Multi-Rotor and learn to completely control it in ALL orientations!   This is the way I taught my wife to fly mutli-rotors...she loved the "GPS lock" as if she let go of the stick it sat in one place no matter what the wind was doing.  But when I put it in "atti" mode with no GPS lock and the wind started pushing it around she then realized that she was not really controlling the aircraft at all.  She really believed there was an issue with the multi-rotor and it was "flying away" out of her control...all actuality, she was out of control and had no idea what stick movements she needed to make to "fly" it back to her with the wind wanting to push around.  She didn't believe me until i took the transmitter and flew it back to us.  By that time (probably no more than 45 secs to a minute), the aircraft was probably 200 yards or more downwind and getting smaller all the time.

After a few weeks of not letting her fly in GPS mode at all, she became very proficient at compensating for wind drift, etc.   Now I am completely comfortable with my wife and I trading off on who flies the inspire and who controls the camera.

I have been dealing with DJI issues long enough to know that not all "fly aways" are Pilot Error...but a VAST majority of them are....

I always try to keep in mind this old story when I fly. There was a stagecoach company that wanted to hire a new driver to haul freight over the local mountain range. The interview question was "how close to the edge of the road can you drive without going over the edge? One candidate said he could drive the coach with 2 inches of the edge and not go over....the next candidate said he could take the coach out so far that two wheels would be out in the air. The last candidate said...'Mister...I stay as far away from the edge as I can." He was the last candidate because he was hired on the spot. I am not interested in sacrificing my aircraft to see how far it can go...I take it out as far as I think I need to go to get my photo and maintain LOS and bring it back. Boring?....perhaps. But I have had nearly 100 Inspire flights and still have the aircraft. Do random failures happen? Do cell phones drop calls? That's the difference....a cellphone drops a call and you curse and redial.....an aircraft drops a call and it can turn into disaster. There is no firmware that can make one of these electronic wonders perfect. Even the Space Shuttle had a 1% catastrophic failure rate. Advice? Know what to do when the systems fail....practice flying in ATTI to develop muscle memory. And understand...this is an expensive hobby that can have random failures. The Inspire is too new to be pushing the limits....that is why experimental planes are tested in a desert setting....and why the death rate is so high among test pilots.

pete1144@me.com Posted at 2015-2-21 00:17
I always try to keep in mind this old story when I fly. There was a stagecoach company that wanted t ...

Good post. It's too cold to fly mine right now, but I've been practicing in the Inspire simulator (in ATTI, with wind speeds cranked up), and in some other Quad sim apps I've found. I always try to push whatever parameters the app has (such as wind, no GPS, etc) to make it difficult to fly. I'm hoping this helps me when I finally do get to fly my Inspire.

My old Parrot AR 2.0 drone also had no GPS, and if you were up higher, no optical either. Could be downright scary when the wind got it. Happened to me once, where the wind grabbed it, and the little quad didn't have enough power to overcome, quickly disappearing on me. Kept getting flipped by the wind. I managed to run after it hitting the "emergency stop" button, and luckily brought it down into a tree unharmed. But lesson learned, I never took it too high, and started thinking about a more powerful drone with GPS.
Edit: Before anyone tells me I shouldn't have been flying it in the wind, there was little wind at ground level, but a lot more above the trees where I was. Ground level wind speed can be deceiving.  

Now, my little Dromida Kodo, that's another story. Still can't fly that stupid thing for more than a few seconds before crashing it...

Thanks Greg and Pete, I'm glad that you chimed in on this issue. Nobody likes a crash or a flyaway and it's clear that products stand to be improved all the time. One interesting stat is that although there are more cars than ever and more vehicular accidents each year, the relative number of fatal accidents has fallen consistently. That technology had an easier time meeting expectations. With personal flying machines that can be launched anywhere the stakes for getting it right early have gone up tremendously.

I thought Petes comments hit the nail on the head

I received my Inspire 1 four days ago. I have also been flying RC helis for over 20 years. That being said, for the price I've invested in the Inspire, I approach the "bird" quite differently from any other craft I own/fly. First, I've read the manual twice before arrival. Second, the tutorials are a must since they have valuable "learned lessons" and insight.

The first day out, I flew att mode only to get the feel of the RC controls and confidence in my connection to the bird. Quite a machine, to say the least. After the initial two 15 minute flights in att mode, I did a thorough pre-flight and methodical process readying the bird and myself for a new adventure. I elected to use the transmitter as the Home point and executed takeoff manually. Hovered at 3m for 3 minutes to allow for GPS lock. Every thing worked perfectly and my confidence is sure to grow as more flights are achieved.

In the past, I have built and flown helis with far less technology than the Inspire. Becoming "intimate" with the bird and controls is imperative to achieve "muscle memory" and instincts that will help the pilot survive in awkward situations. Practice is my next priority to gain more confidence and instincts specific to the Inspire. Both will benefit me greatly when I venture over the water to get the best shots of the market targets I am planning to get.

I'll save the aggressive flying and trickery for the much less expensive birds in the barn. I intend to use the Inspire with a great amount of respect and methodical preparation. Safety and preparation are first for a good pilot/operator! The unfortunate fact is that common sense isn't so common.

The only "fly away" I ever had with NAZA v2 was my own fault, since I configured the RTH on transmitter signal loss. Now, you test the drone in the garden, it came through IMU and initial GPS pos determination, you fly 2 minutes at 2 meter and you land safely, but, after the quadcopter has landed with the motors still idle and during an unthoughtful moment you turn the transmitter off. No sir, you should not do that, it caused a fly away to 20 meters and I was able to pick it up again by turning the transmitter on, but it was simply 100% pilot error here. With the inspire flyaway movies that I saw on youtube I couldn't tell.

I have had experience with quad-copters for several years now. I have read the manuals and still made mistakes that resulted in crashes.  The number one learning tool for me has been these forums. I have learned so much from other peoples mistakes and then even more from the discussion that follows. This has allowed me to avoid so many pitfalls and, quite frankly, it has been priceless.

I would like to thank everyone whom contributes to the forums and to our collective knowledge base.

Thank you.

That is the beauty of it. Separating the wheat from the chaff. Looking at different  persptives then making a decision.

I understand what you are saying but I'm doubtful you will get much traction, the times they are a change'n. First let me say that I would fall under your label of newbie, I didn't read the manual first (it wasn't in the box) and I certainly didn't have any prior experience with drones. Nonetheless, here I am, trying to enjoy myself and learn  thing or two. It seems like the problem you have is that this isn't hard to do, right out of the box. There is no 'school of hard knocks' with regard to crashing and rebuilding. While I personally wouldn't complain to DJI if I didn't something stupid, like fly into a tree. I would expect DJI to stand behind a bird that didn't preform as expected / designed and that failure ended in damage to property (regardless of perceived common sense practices from 'old pros'). These products are extremely sofisticated, impressively self-correcting and when fully functioning, very safe for very novice flyers. That is why DJI is making a boatload of money, they made an awesome product. Is practice good, yes always. Is more practice better, yes always. Is years of experience good, yes always. Should newbies be allowed to fly these very power remotes, yes always. The newbies of today, will be the 'old dogs' of tomorrow... it is just a matter of time before I start complaining about how "those youngsters don't know what lost signal really means damnit!"

Again, I recognize that I am new to the hobby but it seems like this is more about your frustration in reading online forums. I wouldnt get to twisted over malcontents complaining about DJI failures. DJI can do the math on who to help and who to send a bill. The rest of it is just internet ramblings... and they are worth exactly what you paid for them. Yep, just like this one.

** Please note, this was not written to be malicious or spiteful. It is hard to know how it will be received as it is a counter argument but it is simply meant to add depth and perspective to the conversation.

Cheers,
Fubar

perhaps its changed since as ive not read the manual since october for my first ever drone, dji phantom 2 vision plus and again in jan for my inspire.  Neither one of them mentioned that moving the aircraft after powering it on while it was performing the power on self test would cause issues.  Fortunately it only took me a couple times with the phantom which can crash without causing any damage other than breaking props to realize moving it during this time causes erratic flight behavior, fly away/crash problems.  I think this is the main cause of flyaway issues/erratic flight problems people have.  

It will guaranteed, never move it during start up when the camera is spinning. Power it in where you intend to launch from.

I must be that 1% then.

I have to agree to an extent. People are to quick to blame DJi for their errrors. I check myself before I throw the blame on someone else.

sultangris01@gm Posted at 2015-10-24 09:15
It will guaranteed, never move it during start up when the camera is spinning. Power it in where you ...

Yes it will, this should not be done. You are correct.

Dave

From what I have seen over the years, I agree that most all "Flyaways" are user error.

Dave

I read a couple people saying they were taking off, and then getting GPS lock.  I let the quad sit, and get GPS lock on the ground before even starting the motors.  With an Inspire GPS lock will happen within a minute of turning on the bird and going through boot up.  And usually within 10-15 seconds on mine.   After getting GPS lock, take off, hover and let the bird settle into a hover for a while.  If at that point I want to fly ATT mode, then I flip the switch.  Getting a GPS lock and home position established will allow for RTH if the need arises.   If you get a GPS lock sometime during the flight, guess what happens if you lose radio contact?  Where's it going to RTH or Immediate land when power gets to low?  It won't be where you are standing      

Before you say you don't want to waste power waiting for GPS lock, power up your Inspire, and let it sit without starting the motors.  It takes quite a while for the battery to start draining without the motors running.
I flew RC planes and helis for a lot of years, and have seen my share of newby mistakes.  The most cronic mistake is control reversal.  When coming back towards you the controls as you know reverse left to right.  But far more devistating is mentally reversing throttle and forward/reverse cyclic.  I taught several people to fly helis, and quit because I was getting tired of running for my life, or dodging broken blade pieces when they tipped over....... even with training gear.

Starship Posted at 2015-12-1 03:34
I read a couple people saying they were taking off, and then getting GPS lock.  I let the quad sit,  ...

Flyers who take off before GPS lock thinking they will 'save power' should recognise that the power consumption of the GPS is tiny relative to the energy required to drive the motors. It simply does not make any sense to risk losing your craft, taking off before GPS lock unless you are taking off to a position where there is less obstruction so as to enable you to lock to satellites.

Mike-the-cat Posted at 2015-11-30 15:26
Flyers who take off before GPS lock thinking they will 'save power' should recognise that the powe ...

Good point.

Dave

PaulKerry Posted at 2015-12-1 18:15
Hey, Dave. I see you edited my post. Did I post profanity or break some other rule?

My apologies  ...

Hi Paul.

No you are good to go. I did not edit or touch any of the type that that you typed.
I only edited the quote that you quoted of user Mowog2. I deleted most of what was visable in HIS quote on your post.    Leaving only his words, Pretty well...

His user account and all his posts have been deleted.

He has been violating rules for a long time, so we are done with him.

Just in his last post he violated 4 rules and even bragged about it! The 4 rules were:
Attacking a moderator.
Using Profanity.
Being rude.
Being offensive.

Dave

i'm going to more or less agree with the OP and Greg 7140.  I've been flying RC helicopters, with zero GPS, IMU, barometer etc since 86 and I'm a meticulous record keeper.  I kept stats on all my crashes over the years. I cannot claim anything but pilot or builder error for any of my crashes.  The gear and electronics were never the source of any incidents that I can recall.  
Now, the age of the 'drone' is a new phase of RC flying.  Fantastic stuff, which is why I recently purchased one.  But, the relative skills needed on a 1 to 10 scale is 10 for the older RC helicopters and 1 for the new DJI products.  (if you think that is an exaggeration, try flying a traditional RC helicopter, make sure you turn it nose in...but give yourself plenty of room to run if you've only flown DJI products
It is this jump in technology that has allowed the massive influx of new flyers.  And, there is no pre-requisite to actually learn to fly when all the training wheels are suddenly removed.  GPS lock goes and now theres a problem for someone who didn't have to learn to fly without computer/GPA assist.     I've seen it posted elsewhere, but learning to fly without all the assists (at least Attitude mode) will pay dividends when things go south.  It should be the first thing you master.      
This is a great time to be getting into RC, Mastering non assisted flight will save you money one day   Be safe.

photosbyhelo Posted at 2015-12-17 20:46
i'm going to more or less agree with the OP and Greg 7140.  I've been flying RC helicopters, with ze ...

Concur.
Automation dependency.  I see it in my job these days.....

Also known as:  Children of the Magenta