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WindSoul
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Augustus Brian Posted at 2017-2-24 18:38
WindSoul:

"dont know exactly about that cinematic feel. such a concept is new to me. cant counter there."

maybe i will get filters afterall. makes the world more colorful than it needs to be, at the expense of ever expanding darkness.
2017-2-24
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Phantomjim
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Chole Posted at 2017-2-23 07:19
If you short of funds best go for VARIABLE ND2-400 many will tel you here they give X but that happens only when you go too deep if  you are operating within level of ND4-ND64 their is no problem with them.

Correct, I would never swap my variable ND for and single filter.
2017-2-25
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Shayn
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This was my original Post..."I am somewhat short of funds since my P4 purchase....only a temporary issue......if you could only buy one filter what would be best suited for general use...mostly sunny days.", simple question....where did it all go wrong./??

2017-2-27
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fansb1fe1104
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Shayn Posted at 2017-2-27 17:49
This was my original Post..."I am somewhat short of funds since my P4 purchase....only a temporary issue......if you could only buy one filter what would be best suited for general use...mostly sunny days.", simple question....where did it all go wrong./??

Not stating any facts here, just my opinion....I thought auto looked really good until I bought the Polar Pro filters and tried the manual ISO....ND16 on a bright sunny day looks absolutely amazing. If I had to go with just one filter I would probably choose ND16.
2017-2-28
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WindSoul
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Shayn Posted at 2017-2-27 17:49
This was my original Post..."I am somewhat short of funds since my P4 purchase....only a temporary issue......if you could only buy one filter what would be best suited for general use...mostly sunny days.", simple question....where did it all go wrong./??

You got the answer right away. Check first reply
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Gubes17
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Shayn Posted at 2017-2-27 17:49
This was my original Post..."I am somewhat short of funds since my P4 purchase....only a temporary issue......if you could only buy one filter what would be best suited for general use...mostly sunny days.", simple question....where did it all go wrong./??

I use my ND8 the most
2017-3-2
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Focus4
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I have a set that includes ND's 8, 16, 32 and 64. Without a doubt, the most frequently used is the 16. The 8 is my cloudy day and golden hour filter. The 32 is for bright afternoon summer sun. The 64 is for a bright sunlit winter or beach scene. I also have a set of polarizing filters that I use quite often, but that's whole new discussion - and they're also tricky to use on a drone because they can require adjusting for different angles relative to the light source. For casual shooting they're not worth the trouble.

To respond to some of the convoluted discussion I've read in this thread - ND's are very valuable, especially for a camera like the P4 with a fixed aperture lens. When shooting video the most realistic-looking imagery comes at lower shutter speeds. For example, if you're shooting for U.S. television (which is how I make my living, so I know a thing or two about it) you want to keep your P4 shutter at roughly 1/30 for the best look. Video shot at very high frame rates pixelates and doesn't look good.
2017-3-3
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WindSoul
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You can buy filters based on what a guy or another claims based purely on their own experimenting or even worse-based on nothing. Real present-day knowledge has certain attributes: is seeded in curiosity, is built on logic and amazingly, proves ultimately wrong, or false, as is getting replaced by new knowledge. There is a fundamental value in knowledge: no further progress can be achieved unless based on something the future proved fundamentally wrong. Next is the knowledge I have in regard to filters, my understanding on how photo sensor works and why buying filters is the same with buying Coca-Cola: foolish in any possible way.


Long story then:
1. Sensor photoelements
The 4k sensor of the camera has a bit over 8 million photoelements.
Each photoelement is composed of three photodiodes (or phototranzistors, but is not relevant here).
Each photodiode is able to detect light in the visible range, of one particular colour: either red, green or blue.
The photodiode outputs a current which is digitized by an analog do digital converter (ADC), into a number say between 0 and 256, corresponding to a 8-bit
2. Characteristics of a photodiode:
If the light of a certain intensity falls on the photodiode, then the analog output keeps on increasing, so the ADC output will end up being 256. Therefore the exposure time needs adjusted as to obtain a reading relevant for the real colour.
  2.1. Note on sensitivity: the sensitivity of a diode is the speed at which the diode output translates into the max ADC value and can be adjusted in the same way as the exposure time. Since sensitivity and exposure are two variables, i will exclude sensitivity in order to maintain the optimum logic of a mono-variable problem.
3. Exposure time on a photodiode:
If the exposure (time) is too short, the colour is more likely to be rendered a dark one. If on the contrary, the exposure is too long, the colour rendered from the photodiode will become the purest color visible by the eye. Please note the main difference between short exposure (rendering black) and long exposure (rendering not white but the purest colour).
Exposure time is the same for all photoelements of the 4k frame. The ideal exposure of a photoelement is the time needed such as one component (either red, green or blue) reaches saturation. Imagine a sensor where each photoelement is sampled after ideal exposure. The ultimate HDR.
Exposure range of a photodiode:
  1. under-exposed: the ADC outputs a value under 32: the eye can hardly see anything but black. This is the range of black
  2. correctly exposed: the ADC outputs a value between 33 to 224: the eye can easily see all different nuances. This is the visible range
  3. over-exposed: the ADC outputs a value between 224 and 256: the eye can see a pure colour, but can hardly detect nuances. This is the saturation range.

How a photoelement gets the colour depends on each photodiode. A photoelement is correctly exposed when at most one photodiode reached saturation. Now turning from photodiodes to how photoelements work together to generate a unique exposure for all.

4. Metering
There is a process of adjusting exposure time for the entire 4k frame, called metering. It functions like this:
  1. There are a number of photoelements on the frame which can be read independently. These photoelements are involved in exposure metering at first, but are also part of the entire 4k frame sampling which follows the metering.
  2. These special photoelements are scattered around on the frame in a way to make the exposure relevant for the entire frame.
  3. The stages of metering:
    3.1. The shutter opens
    3.2. The metering process makes the first sampling (of the metering photoelements)
      * at the end of the sampling, a ratio is generated: how many elements are dark to how many are bright (saturated). After first sampling, that ratio is usually well above unity
    3.3. Second sampling
      * since the photoelements have the additive property while the shutter stays open, then the dark/bright ratio decreased towards 1, meaning more photoelements which before rendered dark colours now render correctly, but also that more photoelements now render bright colours.
    3.4. Further sampling
      * the sampling process continues untill the number of correctly exposed photoelements is maximized. This metering process is irreversible (happens while the shutter stays open) and requires that the ratio dark/bright doesnt fall well bellow 1, because if the scene becomes over-exposed, the only way to reduce brightness is close the shutter and restart the process from 3.1.
  5. Sampling the entire 4k frame
      * after consecutive samplings and measurements while the shuttter stayed open, the metering has reached an optimum of maximum correctly exposed photoelements.
      * next, the entire 4k frame is sampled and the image is stored. Note: since the shutter speed can be up to 200 faster than frame rate (1/4000 to 1/24), then consecutive shutter actuations can be employed in order to further correct the optimal shutter speed, before the shot is taken and sent to video compressor.
  6. The role and limitations of the ND filter
    6.1. About colour refection from material surfaces:
      * any material has a light absorbtion characteristic. Any surface has in addition, a light reflection characteristic. For example the leaves are green because they absorb red and blue light entirely, and whatever they reflect back is the green component of the incident light;
      * in certain illumination, surfaces reflect a certain amount of color. If the incidental white light increases, then the surface is able to reflect more of the specific surface colour. This ability is limited and if white light increases further, then the surface will start reflecting along with the max amount of coloured light it can, also the extra white light. This renders the surface colour white-washed.
    6.2. The role of the filter is to remove the white-wash from the light reflected, therefore rendering the colour at its strongest, without any extra white in it.
    6.3. The limitation of a filter is that it removes white light from all photoelements of a sensor. While the subject of a shot may appear with the best colouring possible, the rest of the scene will appear dark or even black.
    6.4. Filter use:
      * in cinematography, to render colours in close setups-requires the lights on the stage;
      * in still photo-protraiture, for exactly the same purpose as in cinematography;
      * in still landscape photo, where the motion-induced blur can generate artistic effects, while long exposures take advantage of additive effect of photo sensor in order to render the still subject with clarity.
  7. In conclusion:
      * there is nothing a filter can do which can not be obtained by the variable shutter speed;
      * sensor sensitivity only gives extra leverage by offsetting light detection levels up or down;
      * the camera on the P4 has no shortcomings. the P4Pro camera is hardly an improvement at all.

Epilogue: how HDR works

HDR is a techique of combining different exposures.
The main goal is to render as many photoelements at their ideal light output, where at most one light component is at saturation.
The usual method is to render the same scene at different sensor sensitivities, each sensitivity bringing a different region of the scene at ideal colour output.
For clarifications on sensitivity and exposure, read note 2.1.

I believe that is only a matter of time until each photoelement will be sampled at ideal exposure. Is technologically complicated in present day to sample 8 million photoelements each at its own exposure and all at the same time, but I am confident that a means to measure the saturation levels in real time for each photoelement via a dedicated micro-circuitry is only a matter of microelectronics. What we see with artificial coloring of deep space shots taken beyound visible range along with pictures of the sun, i expect to be unified as a whole picture during our lifetime.













2017-3-5
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joe_gadget
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OK TLDR- skipped to conclusion and each of your asterisk points.

* yes you are correct
* yes you are also correct
* P4P camera is a huge improvement over the P4 due to the larger sensor - in particular improved low light capability (bigger surface area = more light captured). Also the larger sensor captures more of scene than a smaller sensor at the same settings, hence better resolution.

However  you are still missing the point of ND filters in video work, which is to alter the relationship between shutter speed and fps to one which the human brain finds most pleasing (refer again to various posts or even research this for yourself).

And in still photography you may **want** to force a low shutter speed for the nice water motion blur effect which otherwise won't be possible in broad daylight. (of course this is less relevant when taking about aerial platforms like the P4 although in good conditions the P4 can be stable enough to do this type of photography which normally requires a tripod.)
2017-3-5
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Geebax
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WindSoul Posted at 2017-3-5 07:49
You can buy filters based on what a guy or another claims based purely on their own experimenting or even worse-based on nothing. Real present-day knowledge has certain attributes: is seeded in curiosity, is built on logic and amazingly, proves ultimately wrong, or false, as is getting replaced by new knowledge. There is a fundamental value in knowledge: no further progress can be achieved unless based on something the future proved fundamentally wrong. Next is the knowledge I have in regard to filters, my understanding on how photo sensor works and why buying filters is the same with buying Coca-Cola: foolish in any possible way.

Amazing - that is the most incoherant collection of absolute garbage I have ever seen posted on this forum, congratulations, you have reached a new low in misinformation. I just hope the readers on here are able to see that rubbish for what it is.

2017-3-5
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Augustus Brian
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WindSoul Posted at 2017-3-5 07:49
You can buy filters based on what a guy or another claims based purely on their own experimenting or even worse-based on nothing. Real present-day knowledge has certain attributes: is seeded in curiosity, is built on logic and amazingly, proves ultimately wrong, or false, as is getting replaced by new knowledge. There is a fundamental value in knowledge: no further progress can be achieved unless based on something the future proved fundamentally wrong. Next is the knowledge I have in regard to filters, my understanding on how photo sensor works and why buying filters is the same with buying Coca-Cola: foolish in any possible way.

WindSoul:

Glad to see you've been studying up. Some knowledge is often open to interpretation. However, knowledge with regard to facts, not hypotheses, with regard to scientific theories, not guesses and opinions, is and remains stable, most always. For thousands of centuries, you know, millenia.  So, you are wrong to support the notion that all knowledge becomes wrong. I won't  bother to invoke the most basic of examples refuting this.

I have the 4, 8 and 16. I'll be getting the 32 next week.

You've certainly proven that you have an opinion. Nothingmore, Raven.

Keep Smiling,

Augustus

2017-3-5
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WindSoul
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Geebax Posted at 2017-3-5 14:33
Amazing - that is the most incoherant collection of absolute garbage I have ever seen posted on this forum, congratulations, you have reached a new low in misinformation. I just hope the readers on here are able to see that rubbish for what it is.

You appear to be technically ignorant, as ample evidence has been presented to you that your statement is wrong. This forum would be better off without your uninformed advice. Simply put, go away and stop propagating bad advice.
2017-3-5
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WindSoul
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Augustus Brian Posted at 2017-3-5 14:34
WindSoul:

Glad to see you've been studying up. Some knowledge is often open to interpretation. However, knowledge with regard to facts, not hypotheses, with regard to scientific theories, not guesses and opinions, is and remains stable, most always. For thousands of centuries, you know, millenia.  So, you are wrong to support the notion that all knowledge becomes wrong. I won't  bother to invoke the most basic of examples refuting this.

is good you wont bother, cause if you did, then would be easy to see who's right. so far, is your word against mine and since my word is about something while yours is about the author of something, i guess the only one affected is not you. well done!
ps: check kurt godel and theorem of incompletitude. it basically says that any axiomatic system (a frame of laws) can be used to build sentences that do not obey the system, can not be interpreted using the laws of the system and require an extrapolation (another system containing the previous and with aditional laws to treat the abnormality alone).
obsolescence (mortality if you want) is the drive of progress. i believe i made a similar reference in a previous post.
2017-3-5
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Geebax
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WindSoul Posted at 2017-3-5 14:47
You appear to be technically ignorant, as ample evidence has been presented to you that your statement is wrong. This forum would be better off without your uninformed advice. Simply put, go away and stop propagating bad advice.

So - that's the best you can do? Recycle my reply to you.

But no, I will not be going away. I have appointed myself a watchdog for your technical gloop and I will be standing by - ever Vigilant  - to refute it at every opportunity. Onwards and Upwards, The Quest For Truth and Enlightenment!!

2017-3-5
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Aardvark
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WindSoul Posted at 2017-3-5 07:49
You can buy filters based on what a guy or another claims based purely on their own experimenting or even worse-based on nothing. Real present-day knowledge has certain attributes: is seeded in curiosity, is built on logic and amazingly, proves ultimately wrong, or false, as is getting replaced by new knowledge. There is a fundamental value in knowledge: no further progress can be achieved unless based on something the future proved fundamentally wrong. Next is the knowledge I have in regard to filters, my understanding on how photo sensor works and why buying filters is the same with buying Coca-Cola: foolish in any possible way.

I would disagree with your conclusions :-

  7. In conclusion:
      * there is nothing a filter can do which can not be obtained by the variable shutter speed;

         With the fixed aperture of the P4 camera filters are needed to reduce the exposure value where manual shutter and framerate are desired.

      * sensor sensitivity only gives extra leverage by offsetting light detection levels up or down;

The Sensors 'sensitivity', and I assume you mean the ISO value on a digital camera is set by amplifying the signal, unfortunately this means it also amplifies 'noise' in the image, which is why lower ISO settings are desirable.

      * the camera on the P4 has no shortcomings. the P4Pro camera is hardly an improvement at all.

The camera on the P4 Pro is a major improvement over that used in the P4 with larger pixels making it much more sensitive in low light conditions. And the variable aperture allowing better control of the exposure.
2017-3-5
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fansb1fe1104
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Aardvark Posted at 2017-3-5 16:06
I would disagree with your conclusions :-

  7. In conclusion:

Plus the camera on a p4p is now 20 megapixels instead of 12 that all the older models have. This obviously will capture more detail.
2017-3-5
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WindSoul
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Aardvark Posted at 2017-3-5 16:06
I would disagree with your conclusions :-

  7. In conclusion:

first of all, let me say something : you're welcome. I will take the risk to assume you at least tried to read my post.
secondly, i would like to say thank you for your reply. i've made one more exception to read it and- as earlier in this thread, while i can not find real arguments in it, this time at least i dont find this:
"
So - that's the best you can do? Recycle my reply to you.

But no, I will not be going away. I have appointed myself a watchdog for your technical gloop and I will be standing by - ever Vigilant  - to refute it at every opportunity. Onwards and Upwards, The Quest For Truth and Enlightenment!!

"
but not in your reply. cheers!
Let me try a wild guess: is that one of your friends, here on this forum?
Of course that given your past at rallying people against me, like you recently managed to have my message erased, I shall refrain from honestly divulging what kind of trap ive set this time, in the post you just replied to.
for us to have a normal conversation i propose having a conversation first about what normal means.
otherwise, i never reply to your posts cause there's nothing good off it. i know why characters like the one i just quoted above do stick to my posts, i wonder why do you do it? good days-bad days, perhaps- this one being good? is not an invitation to conversation, just a rhetorical question.
2017-3-5
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Punchbuggy
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[Putting my head up from the trench]

Just thought I'd mention the Youtube videos posted by Frederick Hagan. He has one specifically on 'ND filters: Why you really need them' and some others on camera-related subjects. I find them quite informative and, frankly, easier to understand than some of what's been posted above. Which I do appreciate btw, as I am very keen to understand.

Edit: and the tutorials posted by Sergeant were quite helpful too.

[Pulling my head back into the trench]
2017-3-5
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Augustus Brian
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Punchbuggy Posted at 2017-3-5 20:01
Just thought I'd mention the Youtube videos posted by Frederick Hagan. He has one specifically on 'ND filters: Why you really need them' and some others on camera-related subjects. I find them quite informative and, frankly, easier to understand than some of what's been posted above. Which I do appreciate btw, as I am very keen to understand.

Edit: and the tutorials posted by Sergeant were quite helpful too.

Punchbuggy:

I just about had you in my X hairs, when you ducked down again. C'mon, poke that noggin up just once more...

Keep Smiling,

Augustus
2017-3-5
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Augustus Brian
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WindSoul Posted at 2017-3-5 19:02
first of all, let me say something : you're welcome. I will take the risk to assume you at least tried to read my post.
secondly, i would like to say thank you for your reply. i've made one more exception to read it and- as earlier in this thread, while i can not find real arguments in it, this time at least i dont find this:
"

WindSoul:

I like traps.

Keeep Smiling,

Augustus
2017-3-5
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Punchbuggy
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Augustus Brian Posted at 2017-3-5 20:18
I just about had you in my X hairs, when you ducked down again. C'mon, poke that noggin up just once more...

Huh? What do you mean?
* Arrrggghhhh *  Man down! Man down! Medic !!!

Anyway, on a serious note, if you DO buy ND filters, go for a quality brand. I bought a set from eBay and they were absolute rubbish. Apart from one of the lenses popping out, the ND8 did nothing but wash the whole video out. I had to darken them in post to get anything useable. Polar Pro for me soon I think.

And this thread is not about Polarising lenses, I know, but I used one recently over a lake with brilliant effect. So the Polar Pro set I have my eye on is the ND/PL series.
2017-3-5
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WindSoul
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Punchbuggy Posted at 2017-3-5 20:01
Just thought I'd mention the Youtube videos posted by Frederick Hagan. He has one specifically on 'ND filters: Why you really need them' and some others on camera-related subjects. I find them quite informative and, frankly, easier to understand than some of what's been posted above. Which I do appreciate btw, as I am very keen to understand.

Edit: and the tutorials posted by Sergeant were quite helpful too.

i have took mmy time to check on your references. checked this video:
first of all, the video show is very impressive.
now the example of low-pass above grass he is presenting is a bit exaggerated, maybe to make a point.
couple of notes:
  1. the shot without filters was crisp throughout the frame. he must have used a P4Pro at maybe f/11, in order to get such a deep field of view.
  2. if he used f/2.8 focusing ahead to the center of the frame, then the field of view would have been restricted to the focus point. since the point of focus would be at infinity while the bottom-frame grass is located close, that grass would show blurred anyway, due to optics setup.
  3. the blurr effect he obtains using filters is cool. i agree it can be done that way. however, there is nothing in his technique different than in still- landscape shots. while in still shots there is a creative silky effect on motion while the static (usually the subject) appears in focus due to corrected long-exposure, in his shot he focuses on center frame where all is still (at infinity) and uses an exposure (1/50) short enough to render the infinity clear, while the fast transition (around focus point) are motion-blurred.
I understand what he is doing. I only contend that the same thing can be done without the use of ND filter. If there is a marginal improvement, yes, maybe. is it a complicated setup? oh yes, when you lock the shutter speed it means you can only shoot in the right light. if you turn around or the scenery changes and the light too, then the locked shutter would render the scene either too bright or too dark. If is worth investing for filters on a P4 (he presents results on a P4Pro), im not convinced.
2017-3-7
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WindSoul
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Geebax Posted at 2017-3-5 15:19
So - that's the best you can do? Recycle my reply to you.

But no, I will not be going away. I have appointed myself a watchdog for your technical gloop and I will be standing by - ever Vigilant  - to refute it at every opportunity. Onwards and Upwards, The Quest For Truth and Enlightenment!!

well, one can only dream to recycle the pollution of your posting. i was more practical,  about addressing you with a vocabulary you understand best: your own.
2017-3-7
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WindSoul Posted at 2017-3-7 08:28
well, one can only dream to recycle the pollution of your posting. i was more practical,  about addressing you with a vocabulary you understand best: your own.

Just stop posting idiotic advice, you are only confusing those who cannot seperate the wheat from the chaff. I see you are at it again with more ill-founded rubbish.
2017-3-7
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GreenHornet55
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I'm new to DJI and Phantom 4,  is the way the forum always functions?
2017-3-7
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Grizz 1
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lol, yep, sometimes the moderators kick em out for awhile, lol   for the op, ND 16
2017-3-7
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Grizz 1
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GreenHornet55 Posted at 2017-3-7 16:28
I'm new to DJI and Phantom 4,  is the way the forum always functions?

sometimes the australians, canadians, and the Uk cant seem to get on the same page. that aint no yam, its a sweet tater. just wait till red hot poker gets in !!!!!    lol for the op, ND 16
2017-3-7
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Geebax
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GreenHornet55 Posted at 2017-3-7 16:28
I'm new to DJI and Phantom 4,  is the way the forum always functions?

Nope, usually it is a good place to come to for advice or help. But there are some who put out bad advice, and get called out for it.
2017-3-7
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WindSoul
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GreenHornet55 Posted at 2017-3-7 16:28
I'm new to DJI and Phantom 4,  is the way the forum always functions?

yes it is. there are people here  who rather than getting involved at answering a question, get involved at denigrating other people. they don't even come with counter-arguments or proof, nothing constructive, just bad language and personal addresses.
2017-3-10
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Shayn
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I opted for an ND 8 file
2017-3-13
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Shayn
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I opted for an ND 8 filter..Will get ND16 when funds permit....my experience is that the quality of the videos I shoot now appear to look much better....for all those who gave advise THANKYOU for your input. I have much to learn. I would like to note that I did not beleive asking such a simple question would create so much drama.......:-(
2017-3-13
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Shayn
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Grizz 1 Posted at 2017-3-7 16:36
sometimes the australians, canadians, and the Uk cant seem to get on the same page. that aint no yam, its a sweet tater. just wait till red hot poker gets in !!!!!    lol for the op, ND 16

got the ND8 first...will get the ND 16 next...thanks..
2017-3-13
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Shayn
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Gubes17 Posted at 2017-3-2 15:09
I use my ND8 the most

I do now as well.  :-)
2017-3-13
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