Not trying to promote my video, but look at this:





Skip @ 1:03, you will see how close i got to that Power Cable, if i had hit it, i'd probably would be left wondering the same as you are right now. Sometimes there is an obstruction and you've never knew (or currently know) about it, until it's too late.

Sry for your loss.

Ange1walk Posted at 2017-3-2 07:41
Not trying to promote my video, but look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBl4SGLPo70

Did you get that close unintenionally??

Maxxgold Posted at 2017-3-2 06:46
This exactly. He comes in here with strong accusations, and then he can't even back them up. There are holes all through his analysis. He is flying at night which is risky, yet he takes no responsibility, he is flying over water with a low battery, yet he takes no responsibility. He thinks he can see everything that is happening from 2 football fields + 100 more feet away, when it's dark out, I call bs. He loses GPS because of his choice of location, yet he takes no responsibility.

If this was me flying and this happened, I would have started a thread where I admitted that this crash was most likely my fault. I would have owned up to the risky aspects of this flight, and I would have simply asked for,help to determine what happened.

I believe if the crash/loss is due to his actions then he should most definitely take responsibility. However, this tech does sometimes spontaneously fail, so the OP has the right to want justification for what DJI has said happened, though it goes against what the OP states he experienced first-hand. If the tech failed for reasons unrelated to the pilot's "irresponsible" flying, then the pilot's actions are not relevant whatsoever.

For instance, I lost a quad last year and posted my flight log here. I was told by multiple forum members that I should not complain because I had initiated my flight on a battery that was not fully charged, that I had been irresponsible in my actions. Ok, it may be true that my actions were not wise. However, those actions are not what caused me to lose my drone. DJI ultimately agreed that the fault was not mine, and they replaced my quad at not cost to me.

After that experience, I greatly appreciate DJI for their decision, and I assume their assessment in the OP's case is appropriate. But, if the OP accurately attests that there was not a crash before the fall/fail, perhaps others here can cut him some slack. Perhaps there is more to this story than a log and a few images can show. That was certainly the case in my situation and I too had been labeled on the forums as so irresponsible and the cause of the loss of my quad.

Ange1walk Posted at 2017-3-2 07:41
Not trying to promote my video, but look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBl4SGLPo70

Wow - that was a close encounter!
Maybe a wire cutter on the drone would protect - like the ones helicopters have.  

AlecW Posted at 2017-3-2 08:11
Exactly!   They look for reasons to blame the drone owners. Oh you landed and took off again with 60% battery, it's your fault for being irresponsible.  They even argue with each over flight log interpretation trying their hardest to "prove" you wrong.   It's taken me a while to figure this out but it's the same group of guys time after time after time.  You dare to interject something "they" don't like and boom, they attack you all over the forum.  

Maybe I'm being paranoid but it's sure seems to be aimed at US drone owners more than any other country.

You are sounding a bit paranoid, you for one are around this forum cracking jokes making fast quips about others and what they post, and I for one find it funny in the main and as soon as I cracked a joke in a post earlier your up on your high horse.

The truth is I don't think this has anything to do with the US against the rest or visa versa , but you give a little and take a little and get on with it..

AlecW Posted at 2017-3-2 07:40
Sure the OP was a little defensive in his OP but there does indeed seem to be a core bunch here that are like attack dogs.  They (mostly Australian's and Brits for some reason) relish ganging up on people and it's typical people from the USA that they target.  I've seen others try to mention this and watch as they get pummeled to the point of getting so angry they get banned.  They've tried to attack me several times now when I respectfully try to disagree with them.  I think they want me gone but it wont work.

    Well if that is true then maybe start a thread so it can be discussed.  I'm not sure that sniping @labroides in this thread is the way to go about it.  For his part in this thread at least, @labroides is giving his opinion, and backing it up with some content.  And you know just like I do, that we have seen time after time, that it is operator error, and we have to put up with rants and people unwilling to take any blame themselves.

My opinion is that this was a total and obvious case of operator error. Just based on his rant, and unwillingness to take any responsibility for his actions.  If he proved his point, I would be more than happy for him, but so far he hasn't done that.

AlecW Posted at 2017-3-2 08:43
It's not just this thread, everywhere I post some clown from Australia or the UK brings up the wall or whatnot.  It all started a couple of days ago when they all ganged up and attacked me over US politics.  Literally one of them said China was a better country to live in, which is funny but shows you how much they must hate us.  I can link to the thread if you want.

I don't understand it, this is a drone forum.  Carry on, it is what it is, I can and will defend myself.

Hey AlecW, I for one find your contribution and wit and humour very valuable asset to this forum, I was not aware of the political thread so my quip about the wall, was not intended to drag up other stuff that went on, so apologies for that, I'm not one to disrespect another's country.

I can give it but I can also take it, good luck..

Mariuss Posted at 2017-3-2 07:54
Did you get that close unintenionally??

Yep, i never saw this on my live feed while recording, when i got home . . . i was like OMG

I keep preaching State Farm insurance! for me its $60 per year that covers two P3P kits. No deductible, no fault, no problems! Refer to the many threads posted so far.

MJLSTUDIOS Posted at 2017-3-2 10:50
I keep preaching State Farm insurance! for me its $60 per year that covers two P3P kits. No deductible, no fault, no problems! Refer to the many threads posted so far.

This depends on your agency/agent. My SF folks will not under any circumstances, insure my drone. I have a commercial policy with them, but not for much longer. I don't care about the cost of the drone, I care about the liability. I won't be with them much longer...The potential to cause harm to people and property is serious.

As to the OP, he was flying in a situation that I would not. That doesn't mean he was wrong. His experience and comfort level are higher than mine.

Maxxgold Posted at 2017-3-2 06:46
This exactly. He comes in here with strong accusations, and then he can't even back them up. There are holes all through his analysis. He is flying at night which is risky, yet he takes no responsibility, he is flying over water with a low battery, yet he takes no responsibility. He thinks he can see everything that is happening from 2 football fields + 100 more feet away, when it's dark out, I call bs. He loses GPS because of his choice of location, yet he takes no responsibility.

If this was me flying and this happened, I would have started a thread where I admitted that this crash was most likely my fault. I would have owned up to the risky aspects of this flight, and I would have simply asked for,help to determine what happened.

I can clearly see my drone better at night than during the day because of the lights on it    I don't have perfect vision but even I can see my drone to 1200-1300 ft.

His account that he saw it at 700 feet is completely plausible.

However, his assumption that taking off with a battery at 54% was adequate is flawed.

There is a considerable difference between loaded an unloaded voltage.   The Phantom doesn't consider loaded voltage after landing and before the next flight nor is actual capacity remaining measured.  The battery can sag during loaded current draw and then rebound once the load is removed.    It is ALWAYS unwise to attempt an additional flight on the same battery charge regardless of the Pilot app or any other battery charge level report.   The ONLY wise decision is to fly once, on a fully charged battery.   This is why it is strongly recommended by DJI.

Ange1walk Posted at 2017-3-2 10:35
Yep, i never saw this on my live feed while recording, when i got home . . . i was like OMG

haha thats scary!!

Bickering between users should be done through PMs.

@ DJTek or anyone who knows:
In post #44 the images provided: Are these screen shots from screen recording? Is that how the app looks on an Ipad?
On my android stick control is not shown but I like that feature.
Thanks!

AlecW Posted at 2017-3-2 08:11
Exactly!   They look for reasons to blame the drone owners. Oh you landed and took off again with 60% battery, it's your fault for being irresponsible.  They even argue with each over flight log interpretation trying their hardest to "prove" you wrong.   It's taken me a while to figure this out but it's the same group of guys time after time after time.  You dare to interject something "they" don't like and boom, they attack you all over the forum.  

Maybe I'm being paranoid but it's sure seems to be aimed at US drone owners more than any other country.

"Exactly!   They look for reasons to blame the drone owners.  ..  They even argue with each over flight log interpretation trying their hardest to "prove" you wrong.   It's taken me a while to figure this out but it's the same group of guys time after time after time."  

You're aiming this at me and it's nonsense.
I put over an hour into my analysis of this case and you imply it's wrong but offer no evidence to back that up (and pages later there's no correction from anyone).
I'm not trying to prove anyone is wrong - I just analyse the data to solve mysteries and would welcome any other analysis that might point out something I missed.
Look at the one I worked on before this - I recommended referring it to DJI and the owner is getting a replacement from them now:  http://forum.dji.com/thread-84639-1-1.html

"Maybe I'm being paranoid but it's sure seems to be aimed at US drone owners more than any other country."

That's irrational.  Where the owner comes from isn't relevant but since the majority of owners are in the USA, the majority of cases that are user error (as well as equipment malfunction) will come from there.

Now ... how about interpreting the data or commenting on someone's analysis?

Eric13 Posted at 2017-3-2 01:59
I guess that was a stupid question ;-)
I assumed the drone was recovered and DJI had access to the internal log (.dat) files.
Now I understand that the analysis is based on the .txt files from the app. Sorry...

In the Android app, when you replay a flight record, if you click on the little controller icon you will get that stick input display too.

Interresting view: This is the view of the final seconds from the river on Google Earth.

Sure is a lot of censoring going on in this thread...

Eric13 Posted at 2017-3-2 13:45
@ DJTek or anyone who knows:
In post #44 the images provided: Are these screen shots from screen recording? Is that how the app looks on an Ipad?
On my android stick control is not shown but I like that feature.

From the home screen (with the picture of a drone in the center), click on the icon in the upper left. That takes you to the list of flights you have recorded. In the upper right of that screen you can sync all your flights with the DJI servers so that your flights are not lost (in case of device failure etc) and can been seen on any other device you may use with the Go app as well. Now back to the list of flights, select a flight and you can play it back by clicking the play button in the center. Next to the play button there is an icon that kinda looks like the remote control. Click on that to display the stick commands you used during the flight.

skywalker91 Posted at 2017-3-2 16:16
Interresting view: This is the view of the final seconds from the river on Google Earth.

With a  very low count of satellites, I wonder how accurate the course track is. Could the error rate have placed it closer to the building (close enough to hit)?

Ange1walk Posted at 2017-3-2 07:41
Not trying to promote my video, but look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBl4SGLPo70

I've seen your video before. Still gives me the heebie jeebies.

KM5RG-Robert Posted at 2017-3-2 16:25
With a  very low count of satellites, I wonder how accurate the course track is. Could the error rate have placed it closer to the building (close enough to hit)?

I believe it depends on the separation of the satellites. From my geocaching days, if I got few satellites with poor triangulation, I would be lucky to have 30ft accuracy.

I am curious and not that it really makes a difference, but if you are flying for commercial purposes, don't you have to possess a Part 107 license from the FAA, which in turn prohibits operators from flying at night?

skywalker91 Posted at 2017-3-2 16:31
I believe it depends on the separation of the satellites. From my geocaching days, if I got few satellites with poor triangulation, I would be lucky to have 30ft accuracy.

My point.
With the building blocking the sky, there may have been poor satellite separation and therefore lower accuracy.

Mariuss Posted at 2017-3-2 07:54
Did you get that close unintenionally??

I could not see my drone through the fog.  No VLOS.

However I knew I had to turn from where the tea fields were.  Looks a lot closer than it was.

Now everyone is trying to blame the OP for flying on a low battery. I do so all the time but not over water. This was done all as one flight. I was going to land then thought nah, lets dawdle around some more.

This is a 24500 foot total mileage flight I did where the max distance was about 9922ft.   You can see I did some sight seeing on this flight.
I got a low battery warning at 52% as I had been flying into a head wind so DJI software calculates consumption used and what you would need to make it home.
Well I zoomed home reaching speeds over 42mph.  Got back to home point with nice green light battery showing 35%.

So I decided to fly around withing 400ft of where I was at low altitudes taking photos of some tea farms and guest houses.  then I decided I would let my battery go down to critical level to test the autoland. I know autoland works have used it before instead of RTH. Don't worry about me flying below take off point I flew down a valley and at dusk it's easier to see the drone.  The 169 road is my road home and in other flights have been taking photos of where we are having road works done and avalanche areas.

http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/ZP03WI8PU0UTU7TFGXH7/

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-3-2 05:53
I think there can be many different views your right about that.

But in your initial post you were saying people were spouting BS, but the truth is the OP's first post was vert aggressive accusing dji of lying and being liars, there was a certain amount of BS in that opening post, and it's hard to defend that.

You are absolutely right. I may have come off a bit strong here.

And I was definitely speaking out of sincere aggravation. But let's take some things into consideration here. I didn't reach out to DJI because I collided into something. I know what I saw. I live in this area. I take my boat down this river. I have the crash video. I have eye witnesses (which have been submitted with my case) and I do this often enough to understand the risks.

I would absolutely and completely accept responsibility if there were wires, and I was wreckless.

I would absolutely take responsibility if I loss compass and I fought to maintain stability, dreadfully crashing into something.

I take responsibility for flying at night.... That's the shot I was intending to take. This is not illegal. And I have years of experience night flying.

It seems split down the line on opinion. But for me there was only one true fact, I literally watch it drop with no power, into the Chicago river. In a crash there are typically digital artifacts and that dreaded spin before the crash. None of that. Just radio silence.

theGrindLab.com Posted at 2017-3-2 08:02
I believe if the crash/loss is due to his actions then he should most definitely take responsibility. However, this tech does sometimes spontaneously fail, so the OP has the right to want justification for what DJI has said happened, though it goes against what the OP states he experienced first-hand. If the tech failed for reasons unrelated to the pilot's "irresponsible" flying, then the pilot's actions are not relevant whatsoever.

For instance, I lost a quad last year and posted my flight log here. I was told by multiple forum members that I should not complain because I had initiated my flight on a battery that was not fully charged, that I had been irresponsible in my actions. Ok, it may be true that my actions were not wise. However, those actions are not what caused me to lose my drone. DJI ultimately agreed that the fault was not mine, and they replaced my quad at not cost to me.

Hats off to you my friend. #Respect

theGrindLab.com Posted at 2017-3-2 08:02
I believe if the crash/loss is due to his actions then he should most definitely take responsibility. However, this tech does sometimes spontaneously fail, so the OP has the right to want justification for what DJI has said happened, though it goes against what the OP states he experienced first-hand. If the tech failed for reasons unrelated to the pilot's "irresponsible" flying, then the pilot's actions are not relevant whatsoever.

For instance, I lost a quad last year and posted my flight log here. I was told by multiple forum members that I should not complain because I had initiated my flight on a battery that was not fully charged, that I had been irresponsible in my actions. Ok, it may be true that my actions were not wise. However, those actions are not what caused me to lose my drone. DJI ultimately agreed that the fault was not mine, and they replaced my quad at not cost to me.

Hats off to you my friend. #Respect

Cessna172 Posted at 2017-3-2 11:20
I can clearly see my drone better at night than during the day because of the lights on it    I don't have perfect vision but even I can see my drone to 1200-1300 ft.

His account that he saw it at 700 feet is completely plausible.

Thanks for cosigning the visual aspect to this.

I would like to respectfully challenge your argument in regardings to battery on a logical any technical level.

Logical - I have been flying the Phantom since the 2 and have become quite acclimated to the life of these batteries. That lithium cliff is much more rounded with the latest iteration of these batteries as I have experienced. Knowing that I was 1 minute 30 seconds flying distance from my objective to take several missing photos and come back, at 54% seems perfectly legitimate.  There was virtually no wind, no need to speed, and it's a light mission.

Technical - You are absolutely right about loaded and unloaded. But you are incorrect about the phantom's ability to precisely quantify the actual capacity remaining. The DJI Intelligent batterys' cells are using a very common serial-parallel battery cells. This allows for variable voltage or current configurations using the same size cell. This is also volatile. So to prevent over voltage, etc a IC (integrated circuit), placed between each cell every few ms is calculating cell metrics. If something is arie, the battery will cut the path to prevent damage.
Now the Phantom flight controller ever 14ms is querying these metrics, aggregating them and analysing them measuring for voltage, current and energy. This is called Instantaneous Parameters. These values can also passed along to a third party application using their SDK. The phantom is exceptionally Uber aware of it's battery down to the hundredth of a value. And these metrics are also captured in the flight data log.

Now...... with a healthy battery (used twice), and a short run ahead of me, [1:30sec] I was well within safe parameters to execute this flight.

blackcrusader Posted at 2017-3-2 20:28
I could not see my drone through the fog.  No VLOS.

However I knew I had to turn from where the tea fields were.  Looks a lot closer than it was.

That must be close tho!

Happy flights!

blackcrusader Posted at 2017-3-2 20:28
I could not see my drone through the fog.  No VLOS.

However I knew I had to turn from where the tea fields were.  Looks a lot closer than it was.

:: BlackCrusader ::

That's was insanely close! And I'm glad you didn't take the loss.....

buttttttt............. If you were to have stuck those lines, barring you closing a arc, we would have gasped as we watched your drone crash into the ground. Hence the millions of "Drone Crash Videos" on youtube.

Your telemetry would have been captured, compass and errastic GPS data logged, and video send back to your unit... cached... in horror. BUT it would have been captured.

That's what's missing from mine. ALL DATA CAPTURING STOPPED. The group could judge as they may... but this certainly defies such as well calculated, and self preserving level of aircraft!

Yup I knew the lines were there so it was my duty to avoid them. I did.

Back to your drone, the issue of your battery being at critical voltage was brought up. This is the only explanation that allows for a sudden loss of power that I can see.
As mentioned if the battery voltage was so critical for a moment it shut down power that would be reason to suspect the cause.
I am not sure if they will show up for DJI to asses.  

DJTek Posted at 2017-3-3 00:06
Thanks for cosigning the visual aspect to this.

I would like to respectfully challenge your argument in regardings to battery on a logical any technical level.

You are absolutely correct about DJI batteries, yes the loaded voltage is different from the unloaded for a 50% remaining battery but DJI is amazingly accurate with the amount of flying time left on their batteries. The only time the system becomes a little unstuck is when one cell looses voltage faster than its mates and power output has to be limited to save the weaker cell from permanent damage. If it said you had 54% of your battery left then you had 44% to use for the total flight assuming you didn't plan on triggering the auto land at 10% battery.

In seeking to understand the intelligent battery, it is important to know that battery capacity is not a measurable parameter. The only way the aircraft knows the capacity of the battery is because it asked the battery for that information. And the battery knows its capacity because it monitors the quantity of charge given to the cell stack, and also the quantity of charge drawn from the cell stack during use. While this method may seem pretty accurate and ideal, its weakness is that it must also factor in other influences such as the temperature of the pack and things like parasitic discharge through the battery intelligence circuits themselves. There is also a 'sag' that can occur after a battery has rested for a short while and is then called upon to deliver high current again. And when these factors combine, and you make a manouvre that will cause high current drain, the terminal voltage of the battery can drop to very low levels for brief instants in time. And this is what I alluded to earlier, if the voltage drops for a brief instant below the operating voltage of the processing circuits in the aircraft, the whole system can go through a logical reset, in which the aircraft will shut down briefly and restart. But in that instant of time, it will drop out of the sky, and all data recording will stop.

KM5RG-Robert Posted at 2017-3-2 16:21
From the home screen (with the picture of a drone in the center), click on the icon in the upper left. That takes you to the list of flights you have recorded. In the upper right of that screen you can sync all your flights with the DJI servers so that your flights are not lost (in case of device failure etc) and can been seen on any other device you may use with the Go app as well. Now back to the list of flights, select a flight and you can play it back by clicking the play button in the center. Next to the play button there is an icon that kinda looks like the remote control. Click on that to display the stick commands you used during the flight.

THANKS! I didn't even know that feature.
Everyday there is something new to discover  :-)