DJTek Posted at 2017-3-2 23:30
You are absolutely right. I may have come off a bit strong here.

And I was definitely speaking out of sincere aggravation. But let's take some things into consideration here. I didn't reach out to DJI because I collided into something. I know what I saw. I live in this area. I take my boat down this river. I have the crash video. I have eye witnesses (which have been submitted with my case) and I do this often enough to understand the risks.

"It seems split down the line on opinion. But for me there was only one true fact, I literally watch it drop with no power, into the Chicago river. In a crash there are typically digital artifacts and that dreaded spin before the crash. None of that. Just radio silence. "

I guess will never get a definite answer to what happened, there are too many possibilities and not enough evidence.

To me, the data in the log file looks like it collided with something, then the data ends almost immediately.  The lack of data after the impact can be explained by the low height, it would only have taken a second or so to fall into the water and if there is a second or so delay in the transmission of log data then it would fit.  I have seen a log with data and even video from when the aircraft was submerged, but in this case you were at a fair distance and a very low angle so it would have been very hard to receive anything as soon as the legs went underwater.

The biggest problem in this case is that you have lost the aircraft so can't send it in for warrantee diagnostics and repair, we can't see the aircraft logs, and even if you do go diving and find it, DJI's warrantee does not cover water damage.  It was you who decided to take the risk of flying over water, not DJI.

I do think that sending a "brand new" aircraft and 2nd use battery on a risky flight over water is not very sensible, these aircraft and batteries do not get extensive factory flight testing, the Phantoms are consumer products not professional aircraft and although I guess they probably do a hover test at the factory, initial flight testing is up to the owner.  The first few flights for both aircraft and new batteries, and an operator new to the specific model should be in safe and controlled conditions where they can easily be retrieved and with no danger to people or property if something goes wrong.

Geebax Posted at 2017-3-1 19:24
Yes. Since the first posting, all the photos are visible.

If you have been around this forum for a long time, you will have seen dozens of similar scenarios. So many, that the experienced pilots will not hesitate to say to any new flyer: 'Never take off for a flight on a less than fully charged battery'. The fact that your battery was new has nothing to do with the issue.

I have to agree. When my battery gets to 50% it's time to come home not take off.

Also the cold could have played a part. If it was "too cold for birds",as the OP said, it could have slowed that battery down a good bit. A low battery with a high and quick demand may have just blinked just long enough to shut off the motors.

Another thing I noticed was that there were GPS warnings 20 seconds into the flight. I probably would have sorted that out before I flew over water.

DJTek Posted at 2017-3-2 23:30
You are absolutely right. I may have come off a bit strong here.

And I was definitely speaking out of sincere aggravation. But let's take some things into consideration here. I didn't reach out to DJI because I collided into something. I know what I saw. I live in this area. I take my boat down this river. I have the crash video. I have eye witnesses (which have been submitted with my case) and I do this often enough to understand the risks.

Hi DjTek, look I don't think anyone really wants a bad outcome for you, but as I said earlier sometimes how you approach these matters, can reflect how people choose to put their twopence in.

There have been many interesting views on what caused your AC to crash, but I suppose because no definitive outcome is likely you are now at the mercy of dji who seem to have already made a decision on the matter.

My advice to you now is to try and negotiate with dji privately for some sort of deal on getting a replacement P4P, on the grounds that there is not an absolute 100% that this was all pilot error and they cannot provide you with comprehensive proof that you actually crashed into or hit an obstacle above the water.

If you are thinking of trying to negotiate I would temper down your header about dji lied and also your OP that dji are liars, I think this will help you going forward.

I thank you for having the foresight to post all the info that will help others going forward.

I wish you all the best and hope something good comes out of this for you.  Good Luck

The title of this thread is extremely misleading.  It appears the drone was flown into a building while in ATTI mode.  Even if that's not the case, it certainly looks like it.  That being the case, saying DJI lied about the cause - knowing it does appear the drone was flown into a building - is ridiculous.  

Ange1walk Posted at 2017-3-2 07:41
Not trying to promote my video, but look at this:

Question for anyone who has some advice:

At about 0:05 of the video, in the upper right area when the car enters view, traveling from right to left, what can be done to reduce the amount the vehicle seems to jump from one point to another? Most of my videos of traffic (even slow moving) suffer from this no matter what frame rate, shutter speed, resolution, etc. I use. I have even tried enabling the mechanical shutter to see if that might help. This is more apparent with objects traveling "horizonally", but can also be seen with objects moving at different angles. Are we stuck with this?

This is Ange1walk's video, btw:

theGrindLab.com Posted at 2017-3-3 09:41
Question for anyone who has some advice:

At about 0:05 of the video, in the upper right area when the car enters view, traveling from right to left, what can be done to reduce the amount the vehicle seems to jump from one point to another? Most of my videos of traffic (even slow moving) suffer from this no matter what frame rate, shutter speed, resolution, etc. I use. I have even tried enabling the mechanical shutter to see if that might help. This is more apparent with objects traveling "horizonally", but can also be seen with objects moving at different angles. Are we stuck with this?

Looks as smooth as anything to me. Could be your PC struggling to play it & dropping frames.

theGrindLab.com Posted at 2017-3-3 09:41
Question for anyone who has some advice:

At about 0:05 of the video, in the upper right area when the car enters view, traveling from right to left, what can be done to reduce the amount the vehicle seems to jump from one point to another? Most of my videos of traffic (even slow moving) suffer from this no matter what frame rate, shutter speed, resolution, etc. I use. I have even tried enabling the mechanical shutter to see if that might help. This is more apparent with objects traveling "horizonally", but can also be seen with objects moving at different angles. Are we stuck with this?

I saw what you are talking about when I first watched the video. I noticed it was playing in 480P, then I changed the video settings to 4K and it's smooth.

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-3-3 07:26
Hi DjTek, look I don't think anyone really wants a bad outcome for you, but as I said earlier sometimes how you approach these matters, can reflect how people choose to put their twopence in.

There have been many interesting views on what caused your AC to crash, but I suppose because no definitive outcome is likely you are now at the mercy of dji who seem to have already made a decision on the matter.

Thats the whole point: "how you approach these matters..."

We have the saying "The tone makes the music" and this threads headline is aggressive/offensive.
This way some people who don't agree on the details jump in, being aggressive themselves.
That is an issue in any forums.

I guess DjTek needed to blow off steam and was wired when he started this thread.
I do understand but sometimes it's better to sleep over it.

I would think that DJI techs have no emotion over a case but view data in a neutral way and obviously in the interest of their company. In controversial cases both sides argue in their own interest - of course!

Whoever has dealt with insurance claims and experienced what insurances pull off to reject a claim, knows where the bad guys really are.
I can't imagine DJI acts that way. In these modern online times they depend on consumer satisfaction greatly. And they offer a forum to their customers and let them curse a lot. That is what letting me give them credit of trust.

theGrindLab.com Posted at 2017-3-3 09:41
Question for anyone who has some advice:

At about 0:05 of the video, in the upper right area when the car enters view, traveling from right to left, what can be done to reduce the amount the vehicle seems to jump from one point to another? Most of my videos of traffic (even slow moving) suffer from this no matter what frame rate, shutter speed, resolution, etc. I use. I have even tried enabling the mechanical shutter to see if that might help. This is more apparent with objects traveling "horizonally", but can also be seen with objects moving at different angles. Are we stuck with this?

When I view that, it is quite smooth on my PC, so I think you must look at whether your machine is up to the task.

Eric13 Posted at 2017-3-3 13:44
Thats the whole point: "how you approach these matters..."

We have the saying "The tone makes the music" and this threads headline is aggressive/offensive.

It's so true Eric13...

AntBatt13 Posted at 2017-3-3 13:44
I saw what you are talking about when I first watched the video. I noticed it was playing in 480P, then I changed the video settings to 4K and it's smooth.

That's what it was. At a higher quality everything plays correctly. Thanks.

taurus35 Posted at 2017-3-3 12:25
Looks as smooth as anything to me. Could be your PC struggling to play it & dropping frames.

Yep. 4K is smooth.

theGrindLab.com Posted at 2017-3-3 15:43
That's what it was. At a higher quality everything plays correctly. Thanks.

In future, start your own thread rather than hijacking one with something completely unrelated.
You'll get a lot more help and attention with your own thread.

i got a phantom 4 today from the apple store so what should i do first i charged it up already and my iphone can see it can i fly it inside since it's dark outside or should i wait for the morning sooo excited to try this cant wait

Labroides Posted at 2017-3-3 19:40
In future, start your own thread rather than hijacking one with something completely unrelated.
You'll get a lot more help and attention with your own thread.

My sincere apologies for going off-topic. That is most definitely poor forum etiquette. But, since you took the time to post a reply to my off-topic post, please reflect on the fact you have gone off-topic as well. You could have sent a PM. Now, we're BOTH guilty! See what you did there? Go to your corner, sir. You need a time-out.

I am just kidding! Again, my apologies. Looks like we got everyone to stop arguing though!

For the sake of argument, lets say it did hit the building.
The sensors do not work when for any reason the GPS is lost?

CyFA Posted at 2017-3-4 04:28
For the sake of argument, lets say it did hit the building.
The sensors do not work when for any reason the GPS is lost?

Losing GPS shouldn't affect the sensors but they are not effective in poor light or with reflective surfaces so could easily fail to prevent a crash at night or into window glass.

Not only does obstacle avoidance not work at night, but the vision positioning also doesn't work either which makes it likely to drift into things.

Without the vision positioning giving altitude information, is it possible that a gust of wind that affected the barometer caused it to drop into the water?  If it went into the water while moving sideways that may explain the collision (a collision with the water) and would also explain why the log stopped so fast.  Not sure it matches the description of a huge splash though.

Labroides Posted at 2017-3-4 04:54
Losing GPS shouldn't affect the sensors but they are not effective in poor light or with reflective surfaces so could easily fail to prevent a crash at night or into window glass.

I forgot about the low light, thanks!

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-3-4 08:11
Not only does obstacle avoidance not work at night, but the vision positioning also doesn't work either which makes it likely to drift into things.

Without the vision positioning giving altitude information, is it possible that a gust of wind that affected the barometer caused it to drop into the water?  If it went into the water while moving sideways that may explain the collision (a collision with the water) and would also explain why the log stopped so fast.  Not sure it matches the description of a huge splash though.

Here is a quote from page 29 of the user guide about VPS:
"Vision Positioning is only effective when the aircraft is at altitudes of 0.3 to 10 meters.
The Vision Positioning may not function properly when the aircraft is flying over water.
The Vision System may not be able to recognize pattern on the ground in low light conditions (less
than 100 lux).
Do not use other ultrasonic devices with frequency of 40 KHz when Vision System is in
operation."

If I am correct he was actually flying above 10m, at night and over water, so there was virtually no chance VPS would work in these conditions. The only reading of height was from the barometer (GPS doesn't provide the altitude readings), which can be very inaccurate, as discussed in this forum many times before.

DJTek, I understand your problem.  I have been fighting with DJI for over a month now.  My Phantom flipped over and crashed upside down, which we all know won't happen unless something causes it.  DJI says pilot error and can't verify my story because there are no flight data records on the drone!  Yeah, that's what I thought.  Those are there for one purpose, to prove pilot error and if they can't then, they disappear.  Anyway, I have submitted positive circumstantial evidence that what I saw is accurate and yet DJI denies anything is their fault.  OH yes, they did send me what appears to be a new drone, but they somehow left off the four springs that hold tension on the propellers.  They MAILED them on February 10th and then still have not made it here!  Just like everything DJI Customer Service says, you can't believe them.  Please keep us posted on your case, it will be interesting to see what DJI says.
Thanks,
Jim
WA5TEF

WA5TEF Posted at 2017-3-5 20:02
DJTek, I understand your problem.  I have been fighting with DJI for over a month now.  My Phantom flipped over and crashed upside down, which we all know won't happen unless something causes it.  DJI says pilot error and can't verify my story because there are no flight data records on the drone!  Yeah, that's what I thought.  Those are there for one purpose, to prove pilot error and if they can't then, they disappear.  Anyway, I have submitted positive circumstantial evidence that what I saw is accurate and yet DJI denies anything is their fault.  OH yes, they did send me what appears to be a new drone, but they somehow left off the four springs that hold tension on the propellers.  They MAILED them on February 10th and then still have not made it here!  Just like everything DJI Customer Service says, you can't believe them.  Please keep us posted on your case, it will be interesting to see what DJI says.
Thanks,
Jim

"I have been fighting DJI for over a month now trying to get someone to provide me with the flight data logs but they refuse, claiming no logs exist!!!!!  "

What about the log recorded by your app?

"DJI says pilot error and can't verify my story because there are no flight data records on the drone!  Yeah, that's what I thought.  Those are there for one purpose, to prove pilot error and if they can't then, they disappear"

That's not true.  There are plenty of users that have had Phantom's replaced because the data recorded was able to show it was due to malfunction.
If DJI didn't support your claim, why did they send you a new drone?

I don't believe the new drones DJI sends for replacement are new.  I believe they are refurbished.  

piowoc73 Posted at 2017-3-5 07:46
Do not use other ultrasonic devices with frequency of 40 KHz when Vision System is in operation.

Well then, there is the problem, it was night, it encountered a bat which also uses 40KHz sonar and must have thought it had landed so turned the motors off

That would be another explanation that would be an insurance claim rather than a warrantee issue.

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-3-6 03:37
Well then, there is the problem, it was night, it encountered a bat which also uses 40KHz sonar and must have thought it had landed so turned the motors off

That would be another explanation that would be an insurance claim rather than a warrantee issue.

I've been to the exact spot where he was flying and I doubt any bats could show up there. It's as urban environment as it gets and I don't think bats would be very fond of it, but you never know.

WA5TEF Posted at 2017-3-5 20:02
DJTek, I understand your problem.  I have been fighting with DJI for over a month now.  My Phantom flipped over and crashed upside down, which we all know won't happen unless something causes it.  DJI says pilot error and can't verify my story because there are no flight data records on the drone!  Yeah, that's what I thought.  Those are there for one purpose, to prove pilot error and if they can't then, they disappear.  Anyway, I have submitted positive circumstantial evidence that what I saw is accurate and yet DJI denies anything is their fault.  OH yes, they did send me what appears to be a new drone, but they somehow left off the four springs that hold tension on the propellers.  They MAILED them on February 10th and then still have not made it here!  Just like everything DJI Customer Service says, you can't believe them.  Please keep us posted on your case, it will be interesting to see what DJI says.
Thanks,
Jim

I am sorry to hear about the issues you're having. I can say though in my situation, where the quad was actually lost and never recovered, that DJI took the logs (not the logs from the aircraft, of course) I sent them and determined there had been a malfunction. They also sent me what appeared to be a new quad and battery. The process took about 3 weeks from the time I submitted the log to when I received the replacement quad. I totally did not expect this result, but DJI honored their policies.

Outstanding rebuttal.  I recently had a long dispute with DJI Service. I believe they have a corporate policy to reject most claims, even to the point of "inventing" an excuse or "misdirecting".   I went through a similar event, a crash, and it was not posted in SYNC. I used 3rd party app-Health Drones, and it clearly reported and showed my entire days Flights.  DJI Go App did not.  And it caused me to disconnect, have a fly away and crash.    They reported I only flew One Minute that entire day.  Immediately I knew something was suspect.   Do Not trust the Service Dept.  I really do suspect they are up to no good.   

NavyCharles24 Posted at 2017-3-10 06:14
Outstanding rebuttal.  I recently had a long dispute with DJI Service. I believe they have a corporate policy to reject most claims, even to the point of "inventing" an excuse or "misdirecting".   I went through a similar event, a crash, and it was not posted in SYNC. I used 3rd party app-Health Drones, and it clearly reported and showed my entire days Flights.  DJI Go App did not.  And it caused me to disconnect, have a fly away and crash.    They reported I only flew One Minute that entire day.  Immediately I knew something was suspect.   Do Not trust the Service Dept.  I really do suspect they are up to no good.

Wow! That is terrible!

DJTek Posted at 2017-3-1 17:25
It honestly was too cold for any birds and it was exactly at my 12. I chose the position I was in so I would have direct line of sight.

There's potential it could have been shot, this is Chicago... but I believe I could even hear a silencer it was so quiet.  (really not serious)

too cold for birds!!!

It snowing and windy and 25  now as I sit in my kitchen listening to and watching BIRDS at my feeders..

good luck

post the logs as labroides says and it wont take long to check out.

NavyCharles24 Posted at 2017-3-10 06:14
Outstanding rebuttal.  I recently had a long dispute with DJI Service. I believe they have a corporate policy to reject most claims, even to the point of "inventing" an excuse or "misdirecting".   I went through a similar event, a crash, and it was not posted in SYNC. I used 3rd party app-Health Drones, and it clearly reported and showed my entire days Flights.  DJI Go App did not.  And it caused me to disconnect, have a fly away and crash.    They reported I only flew One Minute that entire day.  Immediately I knew something was suspect.   Do Not trust the Service Dept.  I really do suspect they are up to no good.

IF you had a DJI flight record that showed the fault was due to malfunction, you would have had a warranty claim and it probably would have been replaced.
BUT without a proper flight record that shows everything that DJI need to analyse you will be knocked back.
Healthydrones is useless for finding the cause of most lost Phantoms, it hardly shows anything.
Recorded flight data shows that most incidents are not caused by malfunctions and that the users' explanation of the incident is mistaken so it's natural that DJI want to see the data before giving Phantoms away.

NavyCharles24 Posted at 2017-3-10 06:14
Outstanding rebuttal.  I recently had a long dispute with DJI Service. I believe they have a corporate policy to reject most claims, even to the point of "inventing" an excuse or "misdirecting".   I went through a similar event, a crash, and it was not posted in SYNC. I used 3rd party app-Health Drones, and it clearly reported and showed my entire days Flights.  DJI Go App did not.  And it caused me to disconnect, have a fly away and crash.    They reported I only flew One Minute that entire day.  Immediately I knew something was suspect.   Do Not trust the Service Dept.  I really do suspect they are up to no good.

what did your log show when you uploaded it too phantomhelp.com?

a lot can be learned by doing so!

good luck and have fun flying!

In the UK we have to undertake extensive ground training and flight examination before we are permitted to fly commercially.  We need to operate within strict guidelines and need to risk assess all areas of our work.  Its clear to me that you didn't carry out a proper assessment of your job.  You flew at night, over water, at a low height.  You also flew/hovered over what looks like an electric railway line and close to glass fronted high rise buildings.  You don't need HealthyDrones, DJI, or PhantomHelp to tell you this was always going to end in tears.  As many have said, the Phantom is a consumer drone that is not tested to a high standard prior to delivery.  In my humble opinion you have over relied on your "pilot" skills and new drone technology rather than simply use common sense.  I guarantee you that the income for the job is a lot less than the cost of replacing your equipment.  This type of job would require multiple spotters, a full risk assessment for signal interference etc.  Preprogrammed way points and intelligent mode flying only work when coupled with some proper flight planning.  Im sorry to be critical but its incidents like this that effect the entire drone community as a whole.  

After reading and looking at the posts, it does seem likely an unforeseen hazard (bird) may have had something to do with it. Hard to say.  I'm considering flying commercially some time in the future and when I do, I will have insurance and back up drones!

Can you post the full logs?  Yes they are known to make their own conclusions and in some cases they don't even make
conclusions they just make you pay.  Whether it is intentional or the engineers are just unqualified,  I'm really not sure..  All I know is that they should explain exactly why they have come to the conclusion they came to regardless of anything.  In my case they still haven't bothered telling me why I was charged and/or what for..  I hope you get it figured out and I'm always bumbed to see a drone go down.  I'll hold off on my thoughts ubntil I see a full flight log.

I don't wish this one anyone here. So many opinions.

wow thats complex!