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[Potentially Misleading] Illegal after sales response
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enjayaitch
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I bought a new Mavic Pro direct from the DJI store.  I managed two very brief indoor test flights (nothing more than take-off, yaw and land).
On it's third flight (indoor) it crashed, causing the ribbon connecting the gimbal to the drone to be detached, rendering it completely useless (no video feed to the drone, let alone the controller).

The crash was caused by a sudden, rapid ascent into the ceiling, over which I had no control, which makes me believe that there is a manufacturing defect (controller or sensors, perhaps).  Moreover it is slightly alarming that a relatively minor crash would cause the gimbal to become detached - there were no obstacles, just floor and ceiling.

I raised this with DJI support on the 5th day after activation.  Every correspondent from DJI (and there have been many different ones) has insisted that repair is the only recourse.  The most intensely irritating thing is that not one of the DJI representatives has attempted to address my point about presumption and illegality - they just repeat the position that repair is the only option as if there were no history in the support case.

This position is actually illegal under UK law.  It also contravenes DJI's own after-sales policy, which states that manufacturing defects may be addressed by refunds within 7 days and replacement within 15 days.

I have actually ordered and paid for another drone because (assuming it works) it is a phenomenal product, and I am willing to accept that, in the event that no manufacturing defect is found upon examination (and this can be reasonably demonstrated), I will pay for a repair and either sell it on or keep it as a backup.  However in my sincere beilef that the first drone is indeed faulty, I would expect a full refund offsetting the cost of its replacement after the event (which is how Amazon, for example, operates as a matter of course with faulty goods).

What I cannot accept is what seems to be a corporate stance that there is no possibility that a manufacturing defect could exist, and the obvious lack of any attempt to actually understand my compalint.  My one successful phone conversation with support (for which I waited 15 minutes) resulted in instruction that I should send an email.

Has anyone else had an experience like this?  It paints an extremely disturbing picture of customer service philospophy at DJI.
2017-3-1
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thehippoz
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You probably lost contact with the controller for whatever reason. Maybe too close and in the radio blind spot. You should have had it on hover with disconnect instead of return to home inside. It probably tried to rth with the default altitude of 100 ft.
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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Ah. That makes perfect sense.  Thanks. Obviously doesn't address my concerns about the after sales stance but it's helpful to identify a likely cause. Do you have a view on the damage that ensued?  Weirdly, the video continued to work after the crash. It was only after I (very carefully) re-seated the gimbal under its pegs that the video stopped working (and I could see the ribbon had detached). Are they usually this delicate?
2017-3-1
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Ex Machina
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Have you looked at your flight records for clues? This could confirm or disprove thehippoz guess.
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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I didn't - and it's currently on its way back to DJI.  I saw three log entires, but I must have been looking in the wrong place because none contained the level of detail I imagine you're referring to.  What thehippoz describes would precisely explain what I felt as it happened. Although it means I'm probably a few hundred quid in the hole, it's strangely nice to know I'm not a total numptie. Well obviously I am for not doing the hover on disconnect thing but not just completely inept.
2017-3-1
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hallmark007
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Firstly when you buy this AC you are expected to read the Manual, it clearly says on p48 to fly Mavic in open spaces, and although dji says you can fly indoors you do need to know how to do this properly and it's not recommended from the get go.

Secondly you said there were no obstacles just ceiling and floor and you forgot walls, well all of these are obstacles and it's your job as the pilot to prevent this from happening, I can only surmise what may have happened as you didn't provide any logs, it sounds like you were in Atti mode pushed up on left stick and the AC did what it was supposed to do go straight up , and it hit the ceiling.

Thirdly and most important for you , you should have had dji look at your flight log and they would be able to tell you what exactly happened as they can read all the data of your flight.

In order to prove dji are acting illegal you also need to be able to prove that this was a defective product, just telling them it was defective is a bit like pi**ing into the wind.

Looking in from the outside it looks like pilot error from the outset a clear case of not reading the manual...
2017-3-1
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Harbourside
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There is nothing illegal to see here.
You cant return an item that you have flown indoors and crashed.
If you want DJI to investigate the cause of the crash and look at a possible warranty repair, you need to sync your flight logs and open a case with DJI support, the Mavic has an internal flight recorder that will give full details of the crash.
You can also upload the logs to either healthydrones or phantompilots and post the link here so that our forum members can see if they can find the cause of the crash.

Test flights should really be out in an open field, too many people on here are crashing indoors "Testing" its much safer to learn the controls in a wide open space with nothing to hit or any interference worries.
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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Hallmark007, even assuming everything you say about the cause is true, DJI's position is illegal. If you are a retailer and you refuse a refund or replacement for a faulty product, you're breaking the law. In this case, they have not determined whether it's faulty because they haven't seen it - they're presuming there's nothing wrong with it and the response is illegal.  My post is about customer service philosophy not whether my particular drone was actually faulty or not.
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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Harbourside, I'm no pilot but I have flown other drones a fair bit.  the only way the DJI response is legal is if it's not possible for a manufacturing defect to cause a crash. All I'm objecting to is prejudging the cause on their part.
2017-3-1
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Harbourside
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But you are prejudging that the Mavic was faulty without any evidence to support your case.
Post the flight logs or at least video the flight replay in the app with the control overlay on, then we all can see what happened.
If you send the Mavic to DJI and they find a fault, it will be repaired under warranty.
2017-3-1
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Ex Machina
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-1 12:47
I didn't - and it's currently on its way back to DJI.  I saw three log entires, but I must have been looking in the wrong place because none contained the level of detail I imagine you're referring to.  What thehippoz describes would precisely explain what I felt as it happened. Although it means I'm probably a few hundred quid in the hole, it's strangely nice to know I'm not a total numptie. Well obviously I am for not doing the hover on disconnect thing but not just completely inept.

Yes, the gimbal is a very delicate mechanism that generally doesn't survive crashes afaict.

You can play back the flights in your DJI Go 4 app and see if RTH was unexpectedly triggered, though if the connection was lost you'd have to look at the logs on the AC to be sure.

Sorry to hear this happened, that's gotta hurt.
2017-3-1
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Watty2000
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Peoples' refusal to accept responsibility for their own actions is breathtaking nowadays.
Illegal? You have no idea what you're doing with the aircraft. Against advice from the manual, for your first flights you fly the aircraft three times indoors where if anything goes wrong you have no chance of recovery thanks to lack of space and experience.

In your entitled world, none of that is your fault so it must be DJI to blame. Laughable.
2017-3-1
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thehippoz
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-1 12:32
Ah. That makes perfect sense.  Thanks. Obviously doesn't address my concerns about the after sales stance but it's helpful to identify a likely cause. Do you have a view on the damage that ensued?  Weirdly, the video continued to work after the crash. It was only after I (very carefully) re-seated the gimbal under its pegs that the video stopped working (and I could see the ribbon had detached). Are they usually this delicate?

Weakest link is the ribbon cable imo.

Like machina said, there's logs you can upload to dji. Threads on how to do that. Healthy drones if you want to share what happened here.
2017-3-1
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hallmark007
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-1 12:56
Hallmark007, even assuming everything you say about the cause is true, DJI's position is illegal. If you are a retailer and you refuse a refund or replacement for a faulty product, you're breaking the law. In this case, they have not determined whether it's faulty because they haven't seen it - they're presuming there's nothing wrong with it and the response is illegal.  My post is about customer service philosophy not whether my particular drone was actually faulty or not.

I think if your looking at the nitty gritty , then as I said you should have read the Manual, you also may have been the direct cause of the problem, if this is the case you are entitled to Diddly squat,

In dji defence they have no way of knowing what happened or who is at fault, if they were to admit to this over the phone they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but if it's a warranty you will be entitled to a replacement of that I have no doubt.

I think your time would be better spent learning how to fly these AC than wasting your time on the nitty gritty of British law and threatening to sue a Chinese company. Good luck with that.

“There's none so blind as those who will not listen.”
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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Watty2000 Posted at 2017-3-1 13:10
Peoples' refusal to accept responsibility for their own actions is breathtaking nowadays.
Illegal? You have no idea what you're doing with the aircraft. Against advice from the manual, for your first flights you fly the aircraft three times indoors where if anything goes wrong you have no chance of recovery thanks to lack of space and experience.

I'm sorry you see it that way.  It's honestly not about me blaming anyone else for anything - just that albeit a drone, it's still a product and I don't think it obviates retailers and manufacturers from basic customer service.  For me, it's nothing more than the difference between two responses:

1.  "Please upload logs, send it back, and we can determine cause.  If there's no defect I'm afraid you'll have to pay for a repair, but if it proves to be faulty we'll replace it (or refund against your second purchase)"
2. "Please send it for repair".

Maybe I'm being over-sensitive.  I'd read bad things about customer service from DJI but given the interest (and no lack of defence) here from other customers the whole diagnostic thing obviously works.  I just don't like the feeling that there's a built-in assumption that there's no possibility of a bad unit.  Maybe if they did find a fault they actually would replace it - I just didn't get that impression from the whole "repair" thing.
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-3-1 13:26
I think if your looking at the nitty gritty , then as I said you should have read the Manual, you also may have been the direct cause of the problem, if this is the case you are entitled to Diddly squat,

In dji defence they have no way of knowing what happened or who is at fault, if they were to admit to this over the phone they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but if it's a warranty you will be entitled to a replacement of that I have no doubt.

I take your point.  I did read the manual, carefully; lack of experience meant I didn't connect the "on disconnect" options to the indoor/outdoor thing and, in my defence, I don't think this is linked in the manual either.

If it did disconnect and was set to RTH my level of skill and experience would have made no difference in the event.
2017-3-1
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geofox784
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Sync the flight log to healthy drones. It's easy and will probably show you what happened. Download HD Sync and follow the instructions after creating a free account at healthydrones.com. Sync your flight records to the cloud in the DJI GO app and then sync the records through HD Sync. From there you can see a ton of interesting data... most importantly all modes and notifications. Here is an example: https://healthydrones.com/main?f ... _id=GENERALOverview
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-1 13:34
I take your point.  I did read the manual, carefully; lack of experience meant I didn't connect the "on disconnect" options to the indoor/outdoor thing and, in my defence, I don't think this is linked in the manual either.

If it did disconnect and was set to RTH my level of skill and experience would have made no difference in the event.

Now I'm confused.  The "hover on disconnect" thing did ring a bell to me because I remember reading it on page 14.  But now I look again it doesn't read as though it's an actual setting, just one of three behaviours of Smart RTH - I guess when I get my new unit I can have a play with it (outdoors).
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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Harbourside Posted at 2017-3-1 13:09
But you are prejudging that the Mavic was faulty without any evidence to support your case.
Post the flight logs or at least video the flight replay in the app with the control overlay on, then we all can see what happened.
If you send the Mavic to DJI and they find a fault, it will be repaired under warranty.

Based on all this it does seem that this was not faulty (or defective), but that disconnect from radio causing RTH and crash.  So I would take it on the chin.
The point I still believe is valid, though, is that if the product were faulty, a repair under warranty is not acceptable for a brand new unit (of any kind of thing from a car to a toothbrush).  The retailer (in this case DJI) is obliged to replace or refund.
2017-3-1
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Ex Machina
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-1 13:46
Now I'm confused.  The "hover on disconnect" thing did ring a bell to me because I remember reading it on page 14.  But now I look again it doesn't read as though it's an actual setting, just one of three behaviours of Smart RTH - I guess when I get my new unit I can have a play with it (outdoors).

It's a Remote Controller Signal Lost setting, see iOS screengrab:

IMG_8250.PNG
2017-3-1
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enjayaitch
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Ex Machina Posted at 2017-3-1 13:55
It's a Remote Signal Controller Lost setting, see iOS screengrab:

[view_image]

Thank you!
2017-3-1
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Nees
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No obstacles. Just a floor and a ceiling. Sorry, but that was to funny. I would call that a HUGE obstacle when something goes wrong. But crash could have happened with a triggered RTH.Show is the PLAYBACK on the remote in a video. Will clear things out probably.
2017-3-1
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TMitch
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If this is a violation of UK law, then why adjudicate it in the DJI forum? If you believe you have legal recourse, then file your suit, but bear in mind that the burden of proof of a manufacturer defect is yours. And your flight logs should prove it.
2017-3-1
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RoomierPanda
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You crashed your drone in your house and claim DJI has broken a law.

Ok.
2017-3-1
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AG0N-Gary
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What happened to flying inside causes in and out GPS function, causing drone to try to RTH uncontrollably.  We still need the ability to lock into ATTI mode without switching back and forth.
2017-3-1
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Tharg (from the
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Don't forget to fly your second one on its maiden indoors as well !
2017-3-2
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DJI-Thor
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We're sorry to hear the accident.  Please give us some time so we will do data analysis after we receive your returned drone to identify the cause of the crash. Thank you.
2017-3-2
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enjayaitch
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DJI-Thor Posted at 2017-3-2 01:41
We're sorry to hear the accident.  Please give us some time so we will do data analysis after we receive your returned drone to identify the cause of the crash. Thank you.

Thank you.  Obviously I'm trying to get your attention.  I believe I'm technically correct about the law, but that's not really important.

It might be subtle, but the response I would have expected is this:

"Please upload logs, send it back, and we can determine cause.  If there's no defect I'm afraid you'll have to pay for a repair, but if it proves to be faulty we'll replace it (or refund against your second purchase)"

Instead, the response I got was this:

"Please send it for repair".

That is the sum total of my complaint.  If DJI's position is actually the first one then I have no issue, but you should make that clear (as it seems you have here).

Regards
2017-3-2
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enjayaitch
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Nees Posted at 2017-3-1 17:42
No obstacles. Just a floor and a ceiling. Sorry, but that was to funny. I would call that a HUGE obstacle when something goes wrong. But crash could have happened with a triggered RTH.Show is the PLAYBACK on the remote in a video. Will clear things out probably.

OK OK OK I have not made any friends here.  I was trying to get some attention from DJI.  

I just meant that there was nothing poking out anywhere that would directly hit the gimbal like a branch or corner of a table or such like - I was surprised that the gimbal wasn't somewhat protected by the drone body/legs or whatever.
2017-3-2
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enjayaitch
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TMitch Posted at 2017-3-1 18:14
If this is a violation of UK law, then why adjudicate it in the DJI forum? If you believe you have legal recourse, then file your suit, but bear in mind that the burden of proof of a manufacturer defect is yours. And your flight logs should prove it.

Because I wanted to get some attention and was frustrated that nobody in support would acknowledge the difference between "it will need to be repaired" and "if it turns out to be faulty, we'll replace it, otherwise it will need to be repaired".  That's it...
2017-3-2
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K4Unl
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So, to sum up:

You didn't read the manual, and if you did decided to act against it.
Broke your 1000 dollar machine because of the above.
Didn't get the reply you were hoping
Decided to throw a hissyfit because a company decided to help you.

I am confused.

Also: reading about bad experiences with a customer support doesn't mean you will get the same experience.
I've seen people who open their first chat/mail/phone conversation with DJI by immediately demanding stuff or being overly agressive, and then they wonder why they are not being helped.


It sucks you crashed your drone, i get that. But please don't act so childish...
2017-3-2
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enjayaitch
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K4Unl Posted at 2017-3-2 02:06
So, to sum up:

You didn't read the manual, and if you did decided to act against it.

Maybe - perhaps a few tweaks:

I did read the manual.  I may be too stupid to realise that hover on disconnect is a pre-requisite for indoor flying but that's not explicitly in the manual, so let's just say "I'm stupid"
Cause of crash unknown at this point.  You might be right.
Response I got from company was technically illegal because of above.
Threw a hissyfit because nobody would acknowledge that the cause of the crash was unknown and yet would determine repair vs. replacement (or refund).
I concede I may have been too inflammatory here and with support.  I just feel quite strongly about the difference between "it will need to be repaired" and "if it's faulty, we'll replace it, if it was your fault, you pay for repair", which I would have been 100% satisfied with.
I'm acting childishly to get attention.

It worked!!  Actually it's really reassuring that so many customers obviously thing I'm a d1ck, because it says a lot about how good the products are and makes me look forward to learning to fly the thing properly.
2017-3-2
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enjayaitch
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Tharg (from the Posted at 2017-3-2 01:36
Don't forget to fly your second one on its maiden indoors as well !

I have  very big toilet
2017-3-2
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hallmark007
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-2 02:21
Maybe - perhaps a few tweaks:

I did read the manual.  I may be too stupid to realise that hover on disconnect is a pre-requisite for indoor flying but that's not explicitly in the manual, so let's just say "I'm stupid"


Don't think anybody thinks your a D lol, there are somethings that are not really important here, semantics they cause you to get the wrong feedback, but I think it's mainly your fault although you do have the might of British law on your side.
This may not be fully understood by our Chinese counterparts, it must be difficult for all the support to understand British law and recite it to you,
I have often shopped in the likes of Dixons where I find that sometimes customer service staff are clueless about what they are selling me, I would never think to purchase something and then try to get my money back because CS got something minutely wrong. Life my friend is to short for that.

Your problem gimbal ribbon broke, I don't envisage this is going to set you back as much as you think and I think you will have a satisfactory outcome and an honest one.

You brought semantics into this thread, which causes some of the backlash you received, but I think most understand your stance, although correct in U.K. Maybe not the same all over the world.


“He who establishes his argument by noise and command, shows that his reason is weak.”
2017-3-2
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Nees
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-2 01:53
OK OK OK I have not made any friends here.  I was trying to get some attention from DJI.  

I just meant that there was nothing poking out anywhere that would directly hit the gimbal like a branch or corner of a table or such like - I was surprised that the gimbal wasn't somewhat protected by the drone body/legs or whatever.

Its normal for impact. The weight gets a lot higher during impact by X-times. It is the smashing down that ripped it. I have been thinking myself of a system to avoid this by adding a longer elestic strap that will not interfere with the workings but will help it not rip the cable during a hard crash. Some sort of rubber tether.
2017-3-2
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DJI-Thor
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Do you have a case number?
2017-3-2
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enjayaitch
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DJI-Thor Posted at 2017-3-2 21:51
Do you have a case number?

CAS-480080-B2Y9L3

So, from what has been said here, I am fully expecting that the result of the diagnosis is that there is no manufacturing defect, and therefore I am very happy to pay for repairs if that's the case.

However, I've already replaced the drone (I didn't want to wait!), so my ideal solution would be that I get a partial refund that is basically whatever the drone is worth to DJI for replacement stock (DJI refresh or whatever).  If that's not possible I'll just pay for repairs and either keep it as a backup or sell it on eBay.

I want to be clear: I am very willing to accept that this was my fault  (or caused by RTH and therefore not a defect), and that the diagnostics will tell us.  I just think you (DJI) should not frame any return as a repair.  You should acknowledge that, for brand new units, refund or replacement is a possible outcome if it turns out that the unit was in fact faulty in some way, and you are REQUIRED to advise people of that as a retailer in the EU market.  

Thanks

Nick
2017-3-3
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enjayaitch
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DJI-Thor Posted at 2017-3-2 21:51
Do you have a case number?

Hello again.  I'm hoping you can help me.  
I returned the drone.  There was no comment from anyone about the cause of the crash.  But the repair quote was very reasonable (£100 or so), so given what I learnt here about the likely cause of the crash, I submitted a payment.
I then received an email saying that a refund was being processed for my subsequent order (which is the one I placed to replace the damaged drone).
This was extremely promising, suggesting that you had managed to do as I asked, and issue a refund minus the repair costs (which I had paid separately).  I felt that was reasonable.
However, next thing I new the repaired drone was on its way back to me.  The drone itself is fine but the SD card is missing and the box is very badly damaged, which makes it very hard for me to sell it on.
If you are able to look into it, and arrange for me to send this repaired drone back and refund the order I placed for the replacement, I will be very grateful.  I have sent an email to support asking the same thing.

Thank you
2017-3-31
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FrequentFlyer
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enjayaitch Posted at 2017-3-31 09:40
Hello again.  I'm hoping you can help me.  
I returned the drone.  There was no comment from anyone about the cause of the crash.  But the repair quote was very reasonable (£100 or so), so given what I learnt here about the likely cause of the crash, I submitted a payment.
I then received an email saying that a refund was being processed for my subsequent order (which is the one I placed to replace the damaged drone).

sell it in the box from your other Mavic.
2017-3-31
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enjayaitch
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FrequentFlyer Posted at 2017-3-31 10:01
sell it in the box from your other Mavic.

Serial numbers don't match, no SD card, not really what I wanted anyway.  If I were going to do that I'd just sell the replacement one.  But I'd rather DJI just take it back (as I thought they were going to do).
2017-3-31
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