Maxxpsoft Posted at 2017-4-6 02:03
"One question to "blackcrusader"
From flight log it took off from Nell St behind the house. Just zoom in
he said in same post above why he didn't start from beach but some of those places are private property

Yes .. sorry ... I concentrated on the numbers and didn't zoom into the map detail.

But in his opening post he says he DID have visual sight of the model ...

What I find strange is the log only talks about loss of video cache - sign of not keeping tablet 'cleaned' up ... and downlink restored ... nothing about losing signals ...

Something is not agreeing between reported flight and the Logged details ... in my honest opinion.

Nigel;

I agree with everybody else.  Looks like you flew your drone into a wind too strong for RTH to function.  It was literally blown away from you.  

Quamera Posted at 2017-4-6 00:14
No BC that is an example Airdata from G Sig, not from the original poster however there is evidence of a westerly wind at the flight location according to the flight log. How much it contributed to the loss is uncertain but likely to be significant.

This is the log from the OP sorry about error my mea culpa.  

http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/L240IWCMHEYQHLXD2BL4/

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-5 19:13
They were uploaded to cload

I'll try to take a look at it. Did you happen to see post #6? I was referring to you, I swore I hit 'reply' to your initial post but I guess it didn't go through.

Labroides Posted at 2017-4-5 23:04
The default value for loss of signal is RTH.
You will not have another option unless you change it.
Any changes due to a firmware update would set it back to the default.

I would disagree, slightly.. after one of the app updates the default WAS throttle down, that is what got me looking at that setting before every time - paranoid.. but u r right, in general is always is set to RTH.. but since once i've seen it wrong, i am a bit uneasy since then...  

Phantomski Posted at 2017-4-6 07:21
I would disagree, slightly.. after one of the app updates the default WAS throttle down, that is what got me looking at that setting before every time - paranoid.. but u r right, in general is always is set to RTH.. but since once i've seen it wrong, i am a bit uneasy since then...

I have not see throttle down in the App for lost signal.  Where is this coming from? I have done one firware upgrade a a few App updates. After firmware upgrade in do the compass IMU calibration and check other settings. When I  update an app I uninstall the previous app, clear my phone cache, then install new app and have always see RTH as the default on lost signal.  P3S

Quamera Posted at 2017-4-6 00:14
No BC that is an example Airdata from G Sig, not from the original poster however there is evidence of a westerly wind at the flight location according to the flight log. How much it contributed to the loss is uncertain but likely to be significant.

Wrong. This Airdata is from the link in post #1. I just down loaded the flight log from Phantomhelp link and uploaded to HD. So this date is from this fly in post #1.

blackcrusader Posted at 2017-4-6 08:42
I have not see throttle down in the App for lost signal.  Where is this coming from? I have done one firware upgrade a a few App updates. After firmware upgrade in do the compass IMU calibration and check other settings. When I  update an app I uninstall the previous app, clear my phone cache, then install new app and have always see RTH as the default on lost signal.  P3S

maybe it just happened in one version and I happened to see it - not disputing that possibility ;)

method007 Posted at 2017-4-6 05:19
I agree with everybody else.  Looks like you flew your drone into a wind too strong for RTH to function.  It was literally blown away from you.

The wind was not that strong. It was about 11 MPH or 18 KPH.http://climate.weather.gc.ca/cli ... p;Year=2017#shr-pg0       http://climate.weather.gc.ca/cli ... ;MeasTypeID=windspd

I should have asked what would cause the AC not to initiate RTH.I don't think the AC did and my other drone I lost was not at this location but was lost under the same circumstances. Thanks for everyone trying to help me out. Maybee I wasn't meant to own a DJI LOL.

DJI-Jamie Posted at 2017-4-5 10:36
Regarding the discount you received, it was for this current inciden't correct? Could you happen to provide the case number?

No. It was for the first drone I lost. A P3S

Phantom 3 Standards and 4K's have a limited range and strength compared to the P3 ADV or Pro.
Next time if you can upgrade to a better unit to avoid these problems, I've seen others have the same problems with their WiFi UAVs.
Sorry for your loss.

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-7 10:59
The wind was not that strong. It was about 11 MPH or 18 KPH.http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_data/hourly_data_e.html?hlyRange=1994-02-01%7C2017-04-06&dlyRange=1992-12-02%7C2017-04-06&mlyRange=2006-04-01%7C2006-12-01&StationID=9005&Prov=ON&urlExtension=_e.html&searchType=stnName&optLimit=specDate&StartYear=1840&EndYear=2017&selRowPerPage=25&Line=1&searchMethod=contains&Month=4&Day=2&txtStationName=port+colborne&timeframe=1&Year=2017#shr-pg0       http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_data/generate_chart_e.html?hlyRange=1994-02-01%7C2017-04-06&dlyRange=1992-12-02%7C2017-04-06&mlyRange=2006-04-01%7C2006-12-01&StationID=9005&Prov=ON&urlExtension=_e.html&searchType=stnName&optLimit=specDate&StartYear=1840&EndYear=2017&selRowPerPage=25&Line=1&searchMethod=contains&Month=4&Day=2&txtStationName=port+colborne&timeframe=1&Year=2017&type=line&MeasTypeID=windspd

Quoting the recorded hourly average wind speed at some location who knows how far away from where you were flying doesn't tell us what winds your Phantom was dealing with.
Winds can vary considerably dues to distance away, local topography, altitude and gusts.
We have your word that the wind was light - (down on the ground where you launched).
This is also going to be quite different from what your Phantom had to deal with.
Your Phantom has a top speed (in still air) of about 35 mph but looking at your flight record at
5:09-5:15, 5:32-5:42 and 6:28-6:45  we see it exceeding 40 mph.
From 6:40 it was hooting along a little above 48 mph for 4 seconds at an altitude of 235 ft.
The only way that can happen is that your Phantom had a significant tailwind pushing it along.
Right away, that blows the light wind explanation out of the water.

If we want more confirmation, looking at what happened after you turned to the NW,
You didn't attempt to fly straight home but were doodling around, spending quite a bit of time at low speed.
I see three periods where you pushed the right stick forwards for max speed at 8:27, 9:40 and 11:16
The max speeds attained were 24mph, 17mph and 12mph.
That your full speed was much lower than 35mph shows that you were pushing into a significant headwind.
The first two were at 180 ft but at 11:16 you had climbed to 670 ft. The lower speed at higher altitude shows how much higher the wind was at altitude.

"I should have asked what would cause the AC not to initiate RTH"

There is no indication in the flight record that you initiated RTH, but from 10:56 the data shows several Downlink Restored messages that tell us you were getting close to the limit of your signal range.
The flight record stops at 12:03 with the Phantom at 526 feet with 45% battery and you pushing hard on the throttle, flying it further away!
Three seconds after you lost signal, the Phantom would have initiated RTH on its own but it was out of range so there is no record in the app data.
RTH would have attempted to come home at that altitude but RTH is a slow driver and only cruises along at 22mph (in still air).
Look again at what speed you made at 670ft ... it was 12 mph.
At full speed your Phantom would have gone a just little faster at 526 ft but with RTH driving at a slow 2/3 speed, it would have very slowly ahead or maybe backwards.
It would have used up the remaining battery without making much headway and on reaching critical low battery level it would have autolanded into the lake.

The Phantom is very easy to learn to fly but there are a hundred things that can go wrong and it takes time and experience to learn how to make sure they don't happen to you.
It's quite a learning curve.
Flying downwind at altitude in a high wind is probably the biggest cause of beginners lost drones beside crashing into trees and buildings.
If you want to fly in strong winds, fly upwind because the Phantom will have an easy flight home.
Going downwind and staying high is an easy way to lose your Phantom.
If you buy another one and want to keep it, you have a lot of homework to do before you get adventurous (reckless) again.
And RTH should be near the top of the list to study and practice.

"I did everything in my power to get my drone back. If the drone did not RTH when it should have, is that not a malfunction? "

You flew well above your limited experience and put your Phantom(s) in a position from which it could not return.
You didn't understand the problems or how to deal with them.
This is operator error and not a malfunction.

G_Sig Posted at 2017-4-6 10:48
Wrong. This Airdata is from the link in post #1. I just down loaded the flight log from Phantomhelp link and uploaded to HD. So this date is from this fly in post #1.

My sincere apologies Blackcrusader, you were correct. I made a wrong assumption and shouldn't have commented. Thankyou G Sig for pointing out my error and making it clear (for me at least) that the wind (and the OPs misunderstanding of it) was the cause of this loss.

Nobody could disagree with Labroides detailed analysis above.

blackcrusader Posted at 2017-4-6 05:59
This is the log from the OP sorry about error my mea culpa.  

http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/L240IWCMHEYQHLXD2BL4/

No BC it was my error, see post #47 and #54. I have deleted my original post.

Quamera Posted at 2017-4-7 17:29
My sincere apologies Blackcrusader, you were correct. I made a wrong assumption and shouldn't have commented. Thankyou G Sig for pointing out my error and making it clear (for me at least) that the wind (and the OPs misunderstanding of it) was the cause of this loss.

Nobody could disagree with Labroides detailed analysis above.

No problems.  We all make boo boos from time to time.

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-7 10:59
The wind was not that strong. It was about 11 MPH or 18 KPH.http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_data/hourly_data_e.html?hlyRange=1994-02-01%7C2017-04-06&dlyRange=1992-12-02%7C2017-04-06&mlyRange=2006-04-01%7C2006-12-01&StationID=9005&Prov=ON&urlExtension=_e.html&searchType=stnName&optLimit=specDate&StartYear=1840&EndYear=2017&selRowPerPage=25&Line=1&searchMethod=contains&Month=4&Day=2&txtStationName=port+colborne&timeframe=1&Year=2017#shr-pg0       http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_data/generate_chart_e.html?hlyRange=1994-02-01%7C2017-04-06&dlyRange=1992-12-02%7C2017-04-06&mlyRange=2006-04-01%7C2006-12-01&StationID=9005&Prov=ON&urlExtension=_e.html&searchType=stnName&optLimit=specDate&StartYear=1840&EndYear=2017&selRowPerPage=25&Line=1&searchMethod=contains&Month=4&Day=2&txtStationName=port+colborne&timeframe=1&Year=2017&type=line&MeasTypeID=windspd

Zeekman,  let me tell you, I used to hang glide a lot when I was younger.  Flying thermals or flying off mountains or the ocean or lakes.  At least o lakes the wind is usually less turbulent, but I have seen wind gusts where I had difficulty making any ground speed.  In fact also had air speed for flying but negative ground speed.  No web app will let you know about sudden wind gusts.  Apps give you a general idea for a geographical area.  

The fact is that you were flying with a tailwind that was too strong for your drone to return in.  The last part of your flight your drone was flying away from you.  Even in hover mode the drone fights to maintain it's position.  Actually it's harder hovering than having forward movement.

It's quote possible your power consumption was such you battery went to critical power and drone went to auto land.  Read my post about that as I had critical battery at 35%.  However I was at 1640 ft height and had a strong tail wind on the return so my drone flew home at 51 mph and by the time I had descended and flown to home point my battery was at normal operating levels.

Please accept that you flew beyond your abilities to understand at the time about your flight conditions.  Out of LOS, trees blocking your view and signals, flying away with a tail wind.
You need to fess up and accept that you have lost your drone due to pilot error.  I've made pilot errors.  It happens.  

Dave Kent Posted at 2017-4-7 11:39
Phantom 3 Standards and 4K's have a limited range and strength compared to the P3 ADV or Pro.
Next time if you can upgrade to a better unit to avoid these problems, I've seen others have the same problems with their WiFi UAVs.
Sorry for your loss.

Well I bought an Argtek antenna for that.   However as the OP is in Canada he is not supposed to fly out of line of sight, nor over properties not at the heights he was flying. Flying your drone behind tall trees and properties blocking your LOS and your signals is not a good idea. Argtek is good for areas of interference just to maintain a strong signal.

Anyways only DJI can confirm after they see the cloud flight records.

Sometimes this board is all about attack and not help .We all screw up and I do not know if he did but he lost 2 drones .That is not good for anyone .I have posted looking for advice and been attacked .I had to defend myself and still people would not believe what I was posting .We are flying quirky machines and new technology. We need to be more constructive and help not deflate .Some of you have way too much time on your hands and visit all the DJI boards offering direction on drones you have not flown .Just my input . I am sorry he lost 2 drones it would make me very upset . I have never flown a 3 so can not help him .   

perryb Posted at 2017-4-7 20:19
Sometimes this board is all about attack and not help .We all screw up and I do not know if he did but he lost 2 drones .That is not good for anyone .I have posted looking for advice and been attacked .I had to defend myself and still people would not believe what I was posting .We are flying quirky machines and new technology. We need to be more constructive and help not deflate .Some of you have way too much time on your hands and visit all the DJI boards offering direction on drones you have not flown .Just my input . I am sorry he lost 2 drones it would make me very upset . I have never flown a 3 so can not help him .

I do not believe the drones are quirky, it's the pilots that are quirky unless there is a defect like a bad battery or senors etc.

My P3s she's done a lot of flights others do not even dare or are able to do.  Altitudes above 10000 feet max height flights of 500m 1640 feet.  Long distance 15000 feet flights.

I check my settings before I fly to make sure they are correct as I have normally aircraft warming up and use this time to check my settings.  My drone has performed as it should.  It's not quirky at all.
However I don't fly it over water either as no lakes where I live.   

I am learning a lot about this.  Can you guys tell me why this flight made it home? It was flown 20 minutes earlier in around the same spot.http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/3T8U0MGGZ41KZC07K1OZ/

You're returning from the SE or SSE which is a completely different direction than trying to return from the NE.  The fact is, you were lucky on this flight because you never checked the wind forecast and therefore had no idea what the wind was doing.  It was just dumb luck you made it back.  Apparently you had a strong cross wind from the SW and didn't know it.  

The reason you lost your AC on the following flight is because you again didn't check the wind forecast. You flew with the wind and then couldn't fight it blowing from the SW to get back home from the NE.  

Why did the AC not reconnect with the remote is what really bothers me. If it did I would have had a chance to bring it home.

I believe we already covered this.  You lost the 2.4 connection apparently due to excessive range.  

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-8 07:25
I am learning a lot about this.  Can you guys tell me why this flight made it home? It was flown 20 minutes earlier in around the same spot.http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/3T8U0MGGZ41KZC07K1OZ/

It could bee that 10 mph less average wind and other home direction +less attitude made the difference.
You can look at the data here. I don't know if you have used Airdata UAV (HD sync) but you should click the links inside it and look at the data. It will tell you more than it tells us because you were there not us.
Airdata link

Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-4-8 09:27
I believe we already covered this.  You lost the 2.4 connection apparently due to excessive range.

I was out 1500 meters and had good connection and lost it around 800 meters. The P34K is rated at 1200 meters. I lost both connections. The light on the controller went red. Other wise the RTH button on theremote would have worked.

We've already covered this in the first few posts.  

When you say the P34K is rated at 1200 meters, what you really mean is the max range for the 5.8 transmitter is supposed to be 1200 meters in a perfect environment.  The 2.4 connection will be something less than that.  

You say you lost both connections.  What you really mean is you lost the 2.4 connection.  You don't know if you lost the 5.8 connection or not.  You have no way of knowing because the 5.8 is a one way signal and your 2.4 was out.  

If you lost it, it would have RTH'd and then auto landed in the water due to fighting the strong head winds and running out of battery.  If you had not lost it, it would have answered your RTH command and RTH'd and then auto landed in the water due to fighting the strong head winds and running out of battery.  Another possibility is it was on the edge of range and didn't receive your command due to an intermittent control signal, so it hovered and then auto landed in the water due to running out of battery.

Hey Zeekman. Losing 2 AC  definitely sucks. There are several possibilities as to why you lost connection, interference, out of range, weather conditions, battery drain, combination of one or more of these, etc. I would definitely take your past (unfortunate) learning experiences and apply them in the future if you decide to get another one. Watch the area you fly and the weather, set your fail-safes at higher levels and avoid going over water at least until you gain more experience and see how your AC acts and responds to different situations. Good luck in the future on flying and fly safe.

Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-4-8 11:04
We've already covered this in the first few posts.  

When you say the P34K is rated at 1200 meters, what you really mean is the max range for the 5.8 transmitter is supposed to be 1200 meters in a perfect environment.  The 2.4 connection will be something less than that.  

Well if the 5.8 was still connected then the contoller  should have been able to fly the AC but it did not.

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-8 11:26
Well if the 5.8 was still connected then the contoller  should have been able to fly the AC but it did not.

Losing a Phantom is an educational opportunity and if you gain an understanding of what happened and why it was lost, the lesson can be a good one.

First, I'll answer your later questions about the R/C signal:

Why did the AC not reconnect with the remote is what really bothers me.
I was out 1500 meters and had good connection and lost it around 800 meters. The P34K is rated at 1200 meters. I lost both connections.
Well if the 5.8 was still connected then the contoller should have been able to fly the AC but it did not.

Someone's given you confusing incorrect information.
Your P3-4K only uses one frequency - 5.8GHz.
Only the P4-pro uses a dual band system.

DJI list the range as Max Transmission Distance        FCC: 1200m
That's a maximum in good, interference conditions.
Radio range is a variable thing and there are lots of factors that can affect it including solar activity, humidity, your altitude, the way you point the controller, the angle of the antenna to the Phantom's antennas and the local radio interference environment
You will not be able to achieve the max distance all the time and in all environments.
Sometimes you might only be able to get 50% of that.
The P3-4K has a low range (compared to the Lightbridge equipped Phantoms).
Once you get out of range, your Phantom only has it's internal programming to get it home.

Now your first question:  Can you guys tell me why this flight made it home?
Looking at the flight data we see that from 40%-30% you were heading out on the opposite course to the return path.
From 40%-30% your Phantom managed to attain 35mph at an altitude of 173 ft.
This indicates that at that time and altitude the wind was not stong enough to slow your Phantom or give it a speed boost.
When you turned around and went towards home, you climbed to 413 ft.
While at that level the fastest you could go towards home was 9mph.

But you descended as you got closer.
Looking at the max speed vs altitude on that flight home is enlightening.
Altitude  Speed
413ft      9mph
324ft     14mph
266ft     16mph
195ft     20mph
98ft      24mph
Do you see a pattern there?
If you had stayed at 413 feet things might have been different.

The reason your Phantom returned on this flight was that you didn't lose signal and brought the Phantom home.
You were able to do this because you descended to where the headwind wasn't too strong for the Phantom.

Flying offshore is good because there are no obstacles to hit and usually no interference.
But it can be an unforgiving environment where one mistake means you go home with one less Phantom.
You have to be particularly careful with wind strength and direction as you should know by now.
The wind will always be stronger at altitude.  Winds are not always steady, they can be gusty too.
If the wind is strong enough to be an issue, don't fly away any distance downwind, because it will be a hard fight home against a headwind.
If you fly out in the direction the wind is coming from, you'r speed may be less but the Phantom will have an easy time coming home.
If stuck in a headwind RTH situation, reducing altitude should reduce headwind strength.

Now ... where do I send the bill for the investigation and analysis?

As an observer here and pilot, I believe all the data and forum input is fairly accurate. It would appear that the distance, altitude, wind conditions stressed the limitations of the AC. This will help me to pay more attention when flying my own AC. Sorry for his loss, and this is one of my big fears. Glad I read all this, thanks for all the input.

Maxxpsoft Posted at 2017-4-6 02:03
"One question to "blackcrusader"
From flight log it took off from Nell St behind the house. Just zoom in
he said in same post above why he didn't start from beach but some of those places are private property

That is my house and I was on the beach when I was flying it

Labroides Posted at 2017-4-8 15:44
Losing a Phantom is an educational opportunity and if you gain an understanding of what happened and why it was lost, the lesson can be a good one.

First, I'll answer your later questions about the R/C signal:

Yes I see the pattern and I tried to control the ac but I had no control. I  tried to bring it down but the controller had no connection to the AC. This is why I am asking questions here.

Labroides Posted at 2017-4-8 15:44
Losing a Phantom is an educational opportunity and if you gain an understanding of what happened and why it was lost, the lesson can be a good one.

First, I'll answer your later questions about the R/C signal:

I would have done the same on the flight that I lost my drone on but I had no control.

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-8 18:15
Yes I see the pattern and I tried to control the ac but I had no control. I  tried to bring it down but the controller had no connection to the AC. This is why I am asking questions here.

If you are out on the edge of range and lose control signal, you have to depend on the failsafe programming to bring your Phantom back.
But if it's in wind conditions that don't allow that, it could be all over.
In the last flight you made, there were 6 warnings of loss of downlink at 10:56, 11:16 (2), 11:28, 11:48, 12:06.
You should have noted the red No Signal warning on top of the screen.
That's the video signal from the Phantom to the controller.
You tend to lose downlink before losing control signal but it's a warning that you are close to falling over the edge of the world and should point your Phantom towards home and get closer in if you want to keep control of it.

Labroides Posted at 2017-4-8 18:52
If you are out on the edge of range and lose control signal, you have to depend on the failsafe programming to bring your Phantom back.
But if it's in wind conditions that don't allow that, it could be all over.
In the last flight you made, there were 6 warnings of loss of downlink at 10:56, 11:16 (2), 11:28, 11:48, 12:06.

Yes there was a warning pop up saying that video downlink has been lost and do I want to RTH. I said yes and the rest is a gone drone. I had no control of the AC after that.

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-8 09:15
Why did the AC not reconnect with the remote is what really bothers me. If it did I would have had a chance to bring it home.

Well you launched from behind the tree line but now say you are flying from the beach.  So did you lose connection then move to the beach?

Also did you miss this warning? Video cache has stopped because there is not enough storage space.

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-8 19:05
Yes there was a warning pop up saying that video downlink has been lost and do I want to RTH. I said yes and the rest is a gone drone. I had no control of the AC after that.

The flight data shows no indication of going into RTH while you were still within range.
If you lost control signal shortly after you got the do-you-want-to-RTH message, your respknse would not have even got to the Phantom.
But whether it did or not is of no importance.
Your Phantom would have initiated RTH itself 3 seconds after losing connection but the strong wind prevented it from coming back within range.

blackcrusader Posted at 2017-4-8 19:26
Well you launched from behind the tree line but now say you are flying from the beach.  So did you lose connection then move to the beach?

Forget the treeline, it's irrelevant.
There is no treeline - just houses and a few individual trees.
He had full signal out to >1200 metres - there's no indication that trees had anything to do with this incident.

zeekman Posted at 2017-4-8 10:33
I was out 1500 meters and had good connection and lost it around 800 meters. The P34K is rated at 1200 meters. I lost both connections. The light on the controller went red. Other wise the RTH button on theremote would have worked.

OK here is a flight I did down my valley.  For some reason my DJI Go app crashed on my phone.
I couldn't get it restarted so also shut off my RC unit. Drone continued on the way home from 1600m out. I re-established connection when it got back to home point and manually landed it.  I have an Argtek Antenna on my drone giving me long range. There can be many reasons you may not be able to get connection back on the RC.  You also shut off your RC and tried to reconnect yes?

http://app.airdata.com/main?share=kSALbi