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[Misleading Title] Violation of the 4th Amendment?
963 21 2017-5-22
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The Roach
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With this new mandatory new firmware, does anyone else think that DJIs attempt to track all flights in real time is a violation of the 4th Amendment?
There is a Whitepaper out there titled A Call for a Balanced Remote Identification Approach.  It states that DJI is looking to track, in real time, your usage of your drone.  This is a clear violation of privacy.  
2017-5-22
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DJI Joe
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Now, this is only my personal opinion, but I'd like to clarify that the paper explicitely states that "tracking all flights in real time" is something that needs to be deterred.

Some key exerpts are

"The balanced approach that we propose to solving safety, security, and accountability concerns while taking into account operator privacy and safety, is to create an identification  mechanism that provides localized identification without permanent recording or logging.

"No other technology is subject to mandatory industry wide tracking and recording of its use, and we strongly urge against making UAS the first such technology. The case for such an
Orwellian model has not been made."
2017-5-22
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adiru
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DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 13:45
Now, this is only my personal opinion, but I'd like to clarify that the paper explicitely states that "tracking all flights in real time" is something that needs to be deterred.

Good explaination
2017-5-22
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adiru
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So actually, the 4th only applies to governments or agents/actors of the government. DJI, though it is acting like it is a quasi-government, is still a private business entity and thus exempt from the 4th. DJI will simply invoke the "third party doctrine" which means anything users share with DJI, is no longer private and loses the "reasonable expectation of privacy".
2017-5-22
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Xman1
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Agree.  It is not a 4th Amendment issue but probably violates privacy laws, though we would need a lawyer to know for sure, and I am not a lawyer.

It is a matter of time until someone unlocks its secrets too.  Just do a Google search for "Anybody interested in reversing the Mavic firmware?" and you will see that their are groups reverse engineering this thing and that will also involve anything it is transmitting.  In the end, this is just a flying Android device, nothing more.  It is running the basics like Busybox and it is vulnerable.  The last thing I want is someone to tap into this data.
2017-5-22
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adiru
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Also, to use the overused car analogy one last time, some smart cars these days automatically turn on the vehicle lights at night, without giving the driver an option to turn the lights off. If the driver, wanting to be  more stealthy, this would certainty do a lot to give away his position by emitting electronic magnetic radiation against his wishes. Similarly, this is what DJI is attempting to do with the Mavic.

So DJI could easily argue there is no clear violation of privacy for the Mavic to be transmitting identifying information in the name of security and accountability any less than Telsa would need to make a case for why forcing the headlights on at night against the wishes of the driver and exposing his position really isn't a violation of privacy or his rights at all.

The analogy becomes more apt as we see the FAA will most likely soon mandate all drones to have transponders or the like onboard anyway in much the same way traffic laws uniformally and universally require vechiles to have appropriate lighting at nightime for safety and identification reasons.

The driver could choose to stop driving the car, just as the pilot can choose to stop flying the Mavic. Driving, just like flying, is a privilege and not a right.

2017-5-22
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The Roach
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Nevermind

Nevermind


2017-5-22
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Xman1
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Don't think we don't feel your pain.  Just hoping the right thing is done eventually before half of us walk out the door.  

Most of the customers for DJI with liquid cash understand what privacy is.
2017-5-22
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adiru
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Xman1 Posted at 2017-5-22 17:03
Don't think we don't feel your pain.  Just hoping the right thing is done eventually before half of us walk out the door.  

Most of the customers for DJI with liquid cash understand what privacy is.

At the end of the day, all that matters is find ways to stick with your current firmware and airgap your tableet so it can never phone home to DJI.
and prey that someday a rooted firmware hits the internet
2017-5-22
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Xman1
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adiru Posted at 2017-5-22 17:08
At the end of the day, all that matters is find ways to stick with your current firmware and airgap your tableet so it can never phone home to DJI.
and prey that someday a rooted firmware hits the internet

Rooted firmware - I might join that team if I have to.
2017-5-22
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FlyingSmasher
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DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 13:45
Now, this is only my personal opinion, but I'd like to clarify that the paper explicitely states that "tracking all flights in real time" is something that needs to be deterred.

Some key exerpts are

The US court system just struck down the FAA registration scheme. So what give DJI the right to do what the FAA is NOT allowed to do.

Please explain.
2017-5-22
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DJI Joe
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FlyingSmasher Posted at 2017-5-22 17:58
The US court system just struck down the FAA registration scheme. So what give DJI the right to do what the FAA is NOT allowed to do.

Please explain.

Which is what, exactly? Sorry, if I'm unclear.
2017-5-23
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Nikon 1
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NO!  I don't think my 4th Amendment Rights Are Being Violated
2017-5-23
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method007
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The bill of rights only applies to governments.  This is a company.  

This thread is cute.
2017-5-23
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FlyingSmasher
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DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-23 09:21
Which is what, exactly? Sorry, if I'm unclear.

This is the link:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology ... ation-rule-47514096
2017-5-23
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DJI Joe
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FlyingSmasher Posted at 2017-5-23 10:28
This is the link:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/appeals-court-strikes-faa-drone-registration-rule-47514096

I'm aware of this ruling, but I'm unclear as to what you think DJI is doing that the FAA is not allowed to do.
2017-5-23
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Griffith
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adiru Posted at 2017-5-22 14:29
Also, to use the overused car analogy one last time, some smart cars these days automatically turn on the vehicle lights at night, without giving the driver an option to turn the lights off. If the driver, wanting to be  more stealthy, this would certainty do a lot to give away his position by emitting electronic magnetic radiation against his wishes. Similarly, this is what DJI is attempting to do with the Mavic.

So DJI could easily argue there is no clear violation of privacy for the Mavic to be transmitting identifying information in the name of security and accountability any less than Telsa would need to make a case for why forcing the headlights on at night against the wishes of the driver and exposing his position really isn't a violation of privacy or his rights at all.

the FAA will most likely soon mandate all drones to have transponders

Where are you coming from with this bit of paranoia?  The FAA doesn't  even REQUIRE transponders in private aircraft.  

Anyway, it's a bad idea for drones.  It would be costly and the only place it would probably work is above 2000 ft AGL (or near airports at lower altitudes).  The only piece of additional hardware that makes sense in drones (for safety reasons) is a ID beacon with a range of a mile or two.  The point is not to track you wherever you are, only if you're somewhere you shouldn't be.  If that upsets you, then perhaps you're part of the problem that is mandating these rules.

As far as DJI is concerned:  As I read the announcement,  the only time you need to register is when installing an update, not before every flight.  That's not much different than normal processes in installing some software.  BTW, do you think DJI doesn't already know where and when you fly? They just don't want to be co-defendants in a wrongful death lawsuit when some idiot decides to buzz the airport.

Sorry if I'm being a bit harsh, but I think this may be a necessary move to preserve the hobby (or business).  If I were paranoid, I'd be more concerned by Google or Facebook.
2017-5-23
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FlyingSmasher
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DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-23 10:30
I'm aware of this ruling, but I'm unclear as to what you think DJI is doing that the FAA is not allowed to do.

Asking us to expand the registration so DJI can have more control on our drone and flying and track our information or you won't allow us to fly.

DJI is acting as judge, congress and cops in one bundle, do this or you can't fly, give me all of your flying info or you won't fly and I want to see if you did something wrong so I can hand it over to whomever ask for it without due process or you can't  fly our drones.

But hey wait a  minute, I paid for the drone and it is mine and DJI should not be able or allowed to lock me out of flying my drone or my car or my fridge or my washing machine.

Please let me know if I am wrong.

Thank you.
2017-5-23
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DJI Joe
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FlyingSmasher Posted at 2017-5-23 10:48
Asking us to expand the registration so DJI can have more control on our drone and flying and track our information or you won't allow us to fly.

DJI is acting as judge, congress and cops in one bundle, do this or you can't fly, give me all of your flying info or you won't fly and I want to see if you did something wrong so I can hand it over to whomever ask for it without due process or you can't  fly our drones.

Most of what you said is speculation. The white paper simply said "adding a 'license plate' type system is a viable option to ensure safety, though ensuring customers' security is essential."

It said nothing about having more control over your drone, tracking your info, limiting flight, gathering "flying info", or handing over data.

I hope to avoid being called rude, I just want to make sure people aren't mislead by speculation written as fact.
2017-5-23
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FlyingSmasher
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DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-23 11:02
Most of what you said is speculation. The white paper simply said "adding a 'license plate' type system is a viable option to ensure safety, though ensuring customers' security is essential."

It said nothing about having more control over your drone, tracking your info, limiting flight, gathering "flying info", or handing over data.

Joe,

You are not being rude and we are not being rude either in asking clarification for something after the fact.

It is not speculation. Your are limiting the flight, the height and even blocking the camera , again why? This is not speculations it is happening. It is pure and simple, if we don't update the mavic becomes a worthless paper weight. If they are really honest why do block even the live video feed then?

Why don't DJI comes out and explain straight forward what are the hidden reasons behind this update and give us the choice to decide if we want to update or not and keep all the restrictions and limitations out.

Or do 2 updates one for the real issues that everyone is having and another update for the tracking and collecting and allow us to decide what to do and not force us to do what we do not want to do.

The GEO in it's current state is working fine. When I am close to any unauthorized airspace it kick and warns me so obviously it is working. I was in DC, I took the mavic out to the back yard and it took off to 10 feet and then few second later, it said the mavic will be landing in 10,8,7, and it started the count down and I had to land it.

So again the current GEO system is working fine. So why update or you won't fly attitude. I always use anonymous surfing because I don't want anyone to know, collect and especially benefit from my private information without my consent and I would like to keep it that way.

2017-5-23
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DJI Joe
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FlyingSmasher Posted at 2017-5-23 12:15
Joe,

You are not being rude and we are not being rude either in asking clarification for something after the fact.

Flight is likely limited so people don't have incorrect geospatial data. A simple login and reactivation solves this issue.

There is no tracking and collecting update.

If GEO was working fine, it will continue to work fine.

Asking for clarification is fine, but spreading false information is not.
2017-5-23
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FlyingSmasher
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DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-23 12:38
Flight is likely limited so people don't have incorrect geospatial data. A simple login and reactivation solves this issue.

There is no tracking and collecting update.

I am not spreading false information and I am not a 10 year old so I can take anyone's words as fact.

From the past few years we have learned that in every Continent, that when big corporations and governments say hey, we won't track you, we won't listen to you and guess what they will and they do. So forgive me if I don't believe what anyone say unless they put it in black and white so they can be accountable when they breach that trust.

So far we only read "is likely limited" or " it might not happened" or "will see, we are not sure" or " reading too much into this white paper".

Like the majority of owners have requested, why don't DJI put out a clear statement stating what this new way of updating will do or not do, so it can quell all the speculations?

Also, please answer the following questions or have someone from DJI corporate office answer them:

Does DJI assume that everyone currently flying their drones has incorrect geospatial data?

If my geospatial data is correct why do I have to register again and update?

If my geospatial data is correct and if I don't register and update, why DJI still want to block me from flying my drone the way I want to.

Every DJI customer loves their drones, but we also love our freedom to operate our drones however we choose to.

2017-5-23
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