Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-4 16:50
Aloha Cap,

     This is at least the second time that this issue has been brought up on the Forum and I believe it is endorsed by DJI (turn the battery on).  In the beginning there were a number of theories about charging but it is clear that LiPo batteries have their own quirks regarding charging.

Cetacean,
I am not sure exactly what you all are referring too, as there are missing/deleted posts, so it has been hard to follow.  However, in the P4P manual on page 33 it states "If the battery level is above 95%, turn on the battery before charging."  It makes no sense to me, and even reading what you all have wrote it still does not make sense.  However, as you noted DJI does condone this action, but as usual with their manuals they do little explaining but a lot of do this and do that.  What we need is an electrical engineer or electronics expert that can sort this out.

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-7 16:19
&apos.S. I'd much more prefer civilian pilots get more than 20% flight training.'

Learning emergency procedures is still part of the training. My point was that actually flying the aircraft is pretty simple, but learning how to deal with emergencies takes up far more of the actual flight training than the basic flying training does.

I understand, and somehow I'm sure it is more than that too

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-7 16:19
'P.S. I'd much more prefer civilian pilots get more than 20% flight training.'

Learning emergency procedures is still part of the training. My point was that actually flying the aircraft is pretty simple, but learning how to deal with emergencies takes up far more of the actual flight training than the basic flying training does.

BTW how is your recovery going?  Doing well I hope...

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-7 17:00
Cetacean,
I am not sure exactly what you all are referring too, as there are missing/deleted posts, so it has been hard to follow.  However, in the P4P manual on page 33 it states "If the battery level is above 95%, turn on the battery before charging."  It makes no sense to me, and even reading what you all have wrote it still does not make sense.  However, as you noted DJI does condone this action, but as usual with their manuals they do little explaining but a lot of do this and do that.  What we need is an electrical engineer or electronics expert that can sort this out.

It does not make any sense to anyone as far as I can work out. But there is supposedly 'intelligence' in the battery itself, in the form of a processor that controls the charge, discharge and battery maintenance functions. So, if you plug a battery in that is near full charge, the battery will shut off the charge almost immediately, because it will detect that the battery is near full charge, but if you switch the battery on first, it must signal to the battery that if a charger is then connected, it should proceed to top-up the charge in the battery, rather than terminate the charge process.

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-7 17:00
Cetacean,
I am not sure exactly what you all are referring too, as there are missing/deleted posts, so it has been hard to follow.  However, in the P4P manual on page 33 it states "If the battery level is above 95%, turn on the battery before charging."  It makes no sense to me, and even reading what you all have wrote it still does not make sense.  However, as you noted DJI does condone this action, but as usual with their manuals they do little explaining but a lot of do this and do that.  What we need is an electrical engineer or electronics expert that can sort this out.

Aloha Genghis,

     The turn on before charging for topping off the battery appears to be a recent development.  My P3P experienced serious problems when I did not do this.  I do not recall a DJI Team member saying not to do it and I am glad it says to do it in the manual.  I will be testing this out as I charge batteries.  This is actually good news for me.  But it is also getting me to check the charge in the battery icon more often.

     Mahalo for the heads-up!

Aloha and Drone On!

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-7 17:11
It does not make any sense to anyone as far as I can work out. But there is supposedly 'intelligence' in the battery itself, in the form of a processor that controls the charge, discharge and battery maintenance functions. So, if you plug a battery in that is near full charge, the battery will shut off the charge almost immediately, because it will detect that the battery is near full charge, but if you switch the battery on first, it must signal to the battery that if a charger is then connected, it should proceed to top-up the charge in the battery, rather than terminate the charge process.

This is what I figured might be the case, not technically of course, as it seems to make sense in those terms.  However, then why not charge a battery on or off either way, why the distinctions.  Yeah I know too many why questions...sometimes it pays to know more than just because.

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-7 17:18
Aloha Genghis,

     The turn on before charging for topping off the battery appears to be a recent development.  My P3P experienced serious problems when I did not do this.  I do not recall a DJI Team member saying not to do it and I am glad it says to do it in the manual.  I will be testing this out as I charge batteries.  This is actually good news for me.  But it is also getting me to check the charge in the battery icon more often.

I have concluded that DJI's technologies are/were moving so fast even for them that they were/are having trouble keeping up with all the changes.  There manuals leave a lot to be desired and to me they appear to be hastily written.  Basically, if you are a 17 year old looking to enjoy this product it is good enough.  However, for most of the serious minded hobbyists and professional types they'd like to know more and have an understanding as to why.
Either way I'm glad you found some resolution to the issues you are having with your model set and batteries.

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-7 17:39
This is what I figured might be the case, not technically of course, as it seems to make sense in those terms.  However, then why not charge a battery on or off either way, why the distinctions.  Yeah I know too many why questions...sometimes it pays to know more than just because.

'However, then why not charge a battery on or off either way, why the distinctions.'

My guess would be that the normal fast charge is used if you plug a battery in that is not switched on. And under fast chage, it will terminate below the full charge condition in order to protect the cells in the pack from overcharge. When the battery is switched on first, I suspect it enters a slower charge mode to top up the cells.

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-7 17:05
BTW how is your recovery going?  Doing well I hope...

Yes thank you. I am now home from hospital and getting around OK. Thank you for asking.

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-7 20:39
Yes thank you. I am now home from hospital and getting around OK. Thank you for asking.

Aloha Geebax,

     What happened?  You OK?  Nobody tells me anything around here!  Can you PM me?

Aloha and Drone On!

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-7 18:01
I have concluded that DJI's technologies are/were moving so fast even for them that they were/are having trouble keeping up with all the changes.  There manuals leave a lot to be desired and to me they appear to be hastily written.  Basically, if you are a 17 year old looking to enjoy this product it is good enough.  However, for most of the serious minded hobbyists and professional types they'd like to know more and have an understanding as to why.
Either way I'm glad you found some resolution to the issues you are having with your model set and batteries.

Aloha Genghis,

     If you see a way to improve a manual, offer the suggestion to DJI and they will forward it to the appropriate department.  If your suggestion makes sense to them, they are very grateful.  On this Forum, it is probably best to go through DJI Joe using a PM.

     I was having a problem once and was in near daily communications with China and so I was in excitement mode and reading the manual while I was waiting for my issue to get resolved.  I discovered some specific but serious issues with a first edition manual that were mostly due to subtleties of language due to differences in the languages.  In my communications, I made the suggestion about the manual as an aside.  I was given an email address to write to and I did with a cc to the original contact.  They showed me good appreciation.  A month later the change was implemented in the next version of the manual.  I thought that was pretty cool.

     It is not something that will happen every day, but the technology is moving so fast that we all have an investment in seeing it succeed.  We are all part of the team even if we do not have DJI in front of our moniker/name.  I try to help people on this Forum.  If I can get a correction that reduces my effort into the manual it will cut down on my work load, even if it is voluntary, and save someone some grief.  But, it is not something you want to make a big deal out of.  It should be considered a gift to DJI for the gift of flight they give us.  Works for me!

Aloha and Drone On!

Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-9-4 05:19
Here's a guy who thought it would be a good idea to fly with a battery he had flown with the day before.  Why bother to charge it?  It showed a 50% charge which should be fine.  Right?  Keep in mind, your DJI Go/4 app gives an estimated time to tell you how long you have left with the battery.  Right?  If you're just aiming to do a few manuvers or film a few quick shots, it should be more than fine.  Right?  

He was lucky.  It could have landed in a tree, a lake, or simply dropped from the sky without warning.  This has been documented hundreds of times over the years.

sounds more like a defective battery or old firmware..   something.. if i fly partially charged batteries i half deleted day before in my mavic pro  (i assume same in phantom series) it just gives me actual valid estimate.. i wouldn't ever use that half drained battery from the day before to fly seriously, but to put it up in the air for a few minutes i haven't hit a snag yet.   if for example i was flying out over open water or for a distance i use nothing short of a a freshly charged 100% pack!  i imagine i wouldnt have issue with partial charged but ..just extra caution i take..

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-7 17:00
...However, as you noted DJI does condone this action, but as usual with their manuals they do little explaining but a lot of do this and do that.  What we need is an electrical engineer or electronics expert that can sort this out.

I think it is a safety feature, because when you plug the battery into the charger, the only way the battery can check to see if it is really full is to put some power into the battery and see what happens, if it is actually half empty then it will absorb the power quickly, if it is 100% full then it will only absorb the power slowly.   If you do this once then there is no problem, but if you leave it plugged into a charger on an intermittent mains supply then each time the charger gets power it will put a little extra power into the battery and the 100% full battery will eventually become 105% full and then burst into flames!  If it is less than 96% full then it can tell it is not full from the voltage so knows it is safe to fill it up, above 96% full it doesn't know if it is safe to charge or not.

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-8 00:11
Aloha Genghis,

     If you see a way to improve a manual, offer the suggestion to DJI and they will forward it to the appropriate department.  If your suggestion makes sense to them, they are very grateful.  On this Forum, it is probably best to go through DJI Joe using a PM.

Cetacean,
Point taken...
If I had some specific information or detail that was critical to users I would post it, and basically I have.  DJI Mindy already acknowledged my frustration with the manual and said she'd forward it on.  However, the key here is simple, my primary issue with the P4P v1.2 manual is overall.  The manual is chalked full of grammar and logic flow errors.  I simply don't have the time to rewrite the thing and more importantly I don't know what I don't know about key information and data that would be useful to add.  There are technical writers out there that get paid well to do this stuff that is who they need.  Although in this case I think it's a double edge sword, because I believe some of the errors are likely due to translation errors.  So first they need to do a good translation then a good detailed draft in each language they produce.  A tech writer that knows Mandarin and English would be useful for them, that's not me, sorry.

I took of with batteries , way under 100 pct , even 50 pct , flew around, so far never experienced any problems. As long as you stick to your low battery level.

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-9-8 01:15
I think it is a safety feature, because when you plug the battery into the charger, the only way the battery can check to see if it is really full is to put some power into the battery and see what happens, if it is actually half empty then it will absorb the power quickly, if it is 100% full then it will only absorb the power slowly.   If you do this once then there is no problem, but if you leave it plugged into a charger on an intermittent mains supply then each time the charger gets power it will put a little extra power into the battery and the 100% full battery will eventually become 105% full and then burst into flames!  If it is less than 96% full then it can tell it is not full from the voltage so knows it is safe to fill it up, above 96% full it doesn't know if it is safe to charge or not.

Nigel,
Thanks, a reasonable explanation as any.  One thing is for sure, these batteries are sold as intelligent and they do have a circuit board that does quite a bit like temperature detection, charge state, and cell charge balancing, so it is quite possible that they can do more such as what you described.

I took of with batteries , way under 100 pct , even 50 pct , flew around, so far never experienced any problems. As long as you stick to your low battery level.i cannot imagine this can cause problems. I often did fly in one place , started of with 100 pct , flew 10 min. Packed it in and switched everthing off
drove by car to other place and flew again with same battery which was now 70 or so pct, repeated this a few times untill battery was empty. Done this many many times. Again so far no problems,therefore i think its ok to fly with a not fully charged battery. They are not called for no reason, intelligent flight batteries

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-8 01:38
Cetacean,
Point taken...
If I had some specific information or detail that was critical to users I would post it, and basically I have.  DJI Mindy already acknowledged my frustration with the manual and said she'd forward it on.  However, the key here is simple, my primary issue with the P4P v1.2 manual is overall.  The manual is chalked full of grammar and logic flow errors.  I simply don't have the time to rewrite the thing and more importantly I don't know what I don't know about key information and data that would be useful to add.  There are technical writers out there that get paid well to do this stuff that is who they need.  Although in this case I think it's a double edge sword, because I believe some of the errors are likely due to translation errors.  So first they need to do a good translation then a good detailed draft in each language they produce.  A tech writer that knows Mandarin and English would be useful for them, that's not me, sorry.

Aloha Genghis,

     Yes, you see clearly Grasshopper!  About the only thing we have not touched on with this issue is the cutting edge with rapid changes.  It is very hard to justify making changes in the manual when you do not really know if they will last.  They could change with the next firmware update.  Look at this thread!

     I think that is why the manuals are so sparse and why this Forum is so important.  The changes get discussed but too often there is an animosity in threads due to frustration.  DJI Joe's campaign to clean up the Forum is a good start in reigning in this animosity.   But, if we, as contributors, provide information and ways of solving problems in answer to some of that animosity, we can help turn this Forum into a supplement to the manuals as intended.  

     Then we have the fact, as in a factual representation of a serious tendency, so few people who fly DJI's cutting edge technology read the manuals.  RTFM!  And there are those of us who have very few problems and have read the manuals so many times that we want to rewrite them.

     This is such an insult to the technology.  It is not so much an insult to DJI as it is an insult to the cutting edge technology.  Some people who fly do not even know there is a manual.  Then when you mention something they missed, which is very easy since they have not read the manual, they get insulted.  All you did was mention something they missed!  Sheesh!

     I guess I am all pau with my rant now.  Time to get some sleep, big day coming tomorrow - first day of the weekend!

Aloha and Drone On!

ImHereToCrash Posted at 2017-9-8 00:59
sounds more like a defective battery or old firmware..   something.. if i fly partially charged batteries i half deleted day before in my mavic pro  (i assume same in phantom series) it just gives me actual valid estimate.. i wouldn't ever use that half drained battery from the day before to fly seriously, but to put it up in the air for a few minutes i haven't hit a snag yet.   if for example i was flying out over open water or for a distance i use nothing short of a a freshly charged 100% pack!  i imagine i wouldnt have issue with partial charged but ..just extra caution i take..

The guy explains in his comments it was a new battery.  I personally have experienced critical landing with a partial charge.  Many pilots have lost their aircrafts due to partially charged batteries.  Sure, you might fly and survive but why take the risk?  

Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-9-8 03:21
The guy explains in his comments it was a new battery.  I personally have experienced critical landing with a partial charge.  Many pilots have lost their aircrafts due to partially charged batteries.  Sure, you might fly and survive but why take the risk?

maybe there is a difference in how mavic pro and phantoms read batteries.. i have not encountered such errors or issues yet.  i have flown a few times with partially discharged batteries that have sat in my case for a couple days, i try to make a point to fly all my batteries out every 1-3 days.. but weather was bad last few days today first clear day .. and lucky me i had a 75% charged battery that was 3 days old since last run.   only thing i noticed was the estimates of life was rather short it was estimating only 11 minutes right on take off..  this is battery #1, aka my oldest battery that has most cycles on it but even so i know when it is fresh (like same day 75% remaining) it's always estimating over 21 minutes right on take off..

the other thing i noticed is occasionally i get Over Current errors if i use sport mode and climb while going forward hard as i can..  if i do it hard enough long enough i get another error saying "over current discharge, aircraft will now begin reducing speed"

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-3 19:44
I look at it this way, the aircraft is about a $2.5K investment and I am going to put it up several hundred feet in the air. I want everything working for me to keep it up there, and carefully managing batteries is a simple part of the process.

You can take off with a 60% battery, but sooner or later you are probably going to turn up here with a "Drone fell out of the sky WTF?" posting.

I download all my logs and save all my data for review afterwards.  I am very geeky that way.  Along with the flight data I closely watch battery temp over the flight and any anomaly in each of the cells... I haven't had any "Fall of out the sky" events yet... and my batteries are behaving very well.  If I start seeing anomalies in voltage in the data, then I will start to baby that battery even more and not risk anything....
Right now I fly with 100% change, and very short (5 min flights) if I take off with anything less than that... But I charge my batteries the night before, and ensure they are at the proper levels once done.  

RedHotPoker Posted at 2017-9-3 20:29
When is it ok to fly with any depleted flight packs?

Probably while piloting with the flight SIM...

I tried the flight sim for the first time the other day... didn't find it particularly interesting or helpful.... do you?

MrRobert5823 Posted at 2017-9-8 13:01
I tried the flight sim for the first time the other day... didn't find it particularly interesting or helpful.... do you?

No it's Not. But it beats staring out the window at the rain drops beating down on the growing puddles of cloud tears. Ha

Actually, I have RealFlight , Drone SIM. So the onboard flight SIM is pretty basic, in comparison. Ah but for some it may be a good place to begin, if they are new to RC piloting.

The flight SIM is a good way to drain flight packs for storage, or if you are of the mind to deep cycle your flight packs.


RedHotPoker

RealFlight.  Is there an iOS app for it?   Might try it

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-8 02:10
Aloha Genghis,

     Yes, you see clearly Grasshopper!  About the only thing we have not touched on with this issue is the cutting edge with rapid changes.  It is very hard to justify making changes in the manual when you do not really know if they will last.  They could change with the next firmware update.  Look at this thread!

I'm wondering how this community would like a community-created manual, sort of like a wiki built from the ground up. It would need a lot of attention, and DJI staff is shorthanded regarding this type of activity.

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 16:45
I'm wondering how this community would like a community-created manual, sort of like a wiki built from the ground up. It would need a lot of attention, and DJI staff is shorthanded regarding this type of activity.

That is actually a very good idea, it could be more detailed and comprehensive than the online manuals. But it would need a single dedicated person to create, modify and edit the content, and also to keep it up to date. However suggestions for content could come from the community.

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-8 16:54
That is actually a very good idea, it could be more detailed and comprehensive than the online manuals. But it would need a single dedicated person to create, modify and edit the content, and also to keep it up to date. However suggestions for content could come from the community.

I'm thinking of making it a thread and people could vote on content they agree with. Upvoted content will be added to the main portion as a link.

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 17:00
I'm thinking of making it a thread and people could vote on content they agree with. Upvoted content will be added to the main portion as a link.

Sure thing, post it up.

Looking forward to something new and interesting with the forum.  ;-)


RedHotPoker

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 17:00
I'm thinking of making it a thread and people could vote on content they agree with. Upvoted content will be added to the main portion as a link.

Yes, that could work. You would need to work out first if it is going to be a specific manual for a particular DJI aircraft, or just a general manual that would cover the information that is common to all the models.

MrRobert5823 Posted at 2017-9-8 14:00
RealFlight.  Is there an iOS app for it?   Might try it

Yes, RealFlight Mobile.
But it doesn't compare to the Windows computer version.

See www.realflight.com for more info...

RedHotPoker

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-8 17:07
Yes, that could work. You would need to work out first if it is going to be a specific manual for a particular DJI aircraft, or just a general manual that would cover the information that is common to all the models.

I agree to it being more model specific. Too many different drones mixed in together makes for a lot of confusion.


RedHotPoker

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 16:45
I'm wondering how this community would like a community-created manual, sort of like a wiki built from the ground up. It would need a lot of attention, and DJI staff is shorthanded regarding this type of activity.

sounds like a plan we should take action on!   

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-3 19:44
I look at it this way, the aircraft is about a $2.5K investment and I am going to put it up several hundred feet in the air. I want everything working for me to keep it up there, and carefully managing batteries is a simple part of the process.

You can take off with a 60% battery, but sooner or later you are probably going to turn up here with a "Drone fell out of the sky WTF?" posting.

that is totally within reason and acceptable. however battery check should be a preflight thing not a money thing, you should mark batteries and at least mentally track them even if you fly a $500 spark or a $6500+ fully loaded inspire 2 pro...    i just hope that spending $2,500 doesn't limit you any because you are afraid of the risks.. and if you feel limited, you should seek out getting that drone insured fully by a third party.    so you can just enjoy your baby to its fullest without that sick feeling if sh**t happens.  

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 16:45
I'm wondering how this community would like a community-created manual, sort of like a wiki built from the ground up. It would need a lot of attention, and DJI staff is shorthanded regarding this type of activity.

Well at first blush that sounds like a great idea!
However, you are correct, someone would need to provide a fairly high level of attention to it or some might get wrong or misleading info.  
I'm not in charge here, but maybe you can ordain some of the forums "Flight Instructors" or "Captains" that have the knowledge, experience, and time to do so.  While DJI can't write a manual for everyone's liking, they could provide the baseline document from which the Wiki can evolve.  It would have the potential to adding all kinds of technical knowledge and data from the really smart folks here.  Would be nice if you can make that work.  

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 17:00
I'm thinking of making it a thread and people could vote on content they agree with. Upvoted content will be added to the main portion as a link.

The concept sounds good, but I'm not so sure the vote aspect is workable.  Plenty of neophytes can vote on something they have no earthly clue about thereby having something added that is not workable or usable or worse it causes problems.  You really need someone with some knowledge or expertise to filter inputs like that, or you will have a bunch of irate folks if their $2K babies get trashed due to bad info.

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 16:45
I'm wondering how this community would like a community-created manual, sort of like a wiki built from the ground up. It would need a lot of attention, and DJI staff is shorthanded regarding this type of activity.

Noob here, but sounds good.   I would make it aircraft specific, too many variables if you start mixing the aircraft up

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-9-8 17:00
I'm thinking of making it a thread and people could vote on content they agree with. Upvoted content will be added to the main portion as a link.

Aloha Joe,

     Boy, I take a night off to go to a birthday party and the world moves on without me!  I have opinions to ya know!  I agree with all of you.

Aloha and Drone On!

An online manual written by seasoned users of the device would potentially be the best manual in the industry - or any industry.

Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-9-9 02:41
An online manual written by seasoned users of the device would potentially be the best manual in the industry - or any industry.

Aloha Mark,

     Mahalo for the inspiration!

Aloha and Drone On!

On the lighter side....    Sometimes I fly my P4P without a battery. Just hand toss the thing in the air. Yes... it is a short flight and the landings are a bit rough, but, it saves time in recharging those pesky batteries!  This is just a joke!