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Using OTG Voids Spark Warranties
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3036 72 2017-9-14
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Charles Adams
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The purpose of this topic is to specifically discuss the news/information that using OTG voids our Spark Warranties.  This information was conveyed to us here:  http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?m ... 03&page=2#pid956114

I don't anticipate that this is a policy that we can change through conversation, but I still had some thoughts and concerns that I wanted to convey on this matter.

Thought 1:  Using the OTG cable is the only way that DJI supports using the spark with DJI Goggles.  It seems odd to me that DJI supports this use case but will void warranties in any other use case.  I'm hoping DJI moderators can elaborate on this.  I understand that DJI Goggles is one specific use case (where the entire system is made up of DJI products) and the instance of using a phone is different, in that such use cases involve equipment that DJI cannot control (various android and iphone devices in play).  But still there seem to be enough similarities in the use cases that it confuses and concerns me that using OTG violates the warranties.

Thought 2:  I still have many connection issues when using the spark in the "fully supported" fashion (wifi connection from phone to RC).  Many of the "lost spark" issues seem to include the component of lost communication when using wifi.  I have a much more stable connection with far fewer issues when using OTG.  My concern is that it seems more likely that I will have to engage DJI in a request to repair or replace equipment using just wifi than when I am using OTG.  If I am flying and my spark (for whatever reason) loses GPS and goes to ATTI, and if I happen to simultaneously lose RC connection...  disaster.  I realize that now I'm taking a calculated risk, but it seems to me that I face a risk of DJI being unwilling to replace my craft because I lost it in the lake due to a combination of bad circumstances that I might not be able to control (lost gps and lost rc wifi connection simultaneously), or I face a risk of DJI being unwilling to replace or repair my craft because I was flying using OTG so that I could avoid the prior risk.

DJI...  I would like to request and encourage you to support OTG, as it does resolve connection issues that remain otherwise.
2017-9-14
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Oracle Miata
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It's not gonna happen for whatever reason.  DJI would have done this by now if it were in the "cards".  
2017-9-14
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Wachtberger
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I fully agree to and support Charles' motion! I am using OTG connection between my tablet and the RC literally since day one and can witness that it works perfectly. I have anyway read the statement concerning warranty in a different way. I interpreted it more like "Since OTG is not officially supported  for the time being, warranty cannot be given if using OTG has caused damage". At least this would be the appropriate technical and legal approach in my opinion until the use of OTG will not only be officially supported for Goggles but also for mobile device and RC connection.
And to all the wonderful DJI moderators here I promise a lot of if they convey our strong wish to the appropriate level!
2017-9-14
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Charles Adams
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Wachtberger Posted at 2017-9-14 08:48
I fully agree to and support Charles' motion! I am using OTG connection between my tablet and the RC literally since day one and can witness that it works perfectly. I have anyway read the statement concerning warranty in a different way. I interpreted it more like "Since OTG is not officially supported  for the time being, warranty cannot be given if using OTG has caused damage". At least this would be the appropriate technical and legal approach in my opinion until the use of OTG will not only be officially supported for Goggles but also for mobile device and RC connection.
And to all the wonderful DJI moderators here I promise a lot of  if they convey our strong wish to the appropriate level!

And I'll throw in chocolate with Wachtberger's flowers!
2017-9-14
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hallmark007
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As we see below terms for care refresh, I couldn't find warranty one but number 11 is the same on your warranty as it is here for care refresh.
DAMAGE RESULTING FROM THE USE OF THIRD PARTY ACCESSORIES BATTERIES OR SOFTWARE.
This is not lawyer jargon, it is very simply put together to not confuse anyone and for the most is self explanatory, but I will try to make it even more simple.
The third party accessory i.e. OTG" MUST" be the direct cause of your AC to crash or malfunction for your warranty to be void.
So if you believe it won't have any detrimental effect on your AC continue to use it, if you believe it may have a detrimental effect then don't use it.
And this is the same for third party apps, trackers etc etc, it's there in black and white the decision to use is 100% pilots and he knows the rules before he plays the game.

1) Lost or partially lost aircraft, gimbal or accessories.
2) Stolen, forgotten, or abandoned product.
3) Damage caused by flight under unsuitable conditions.
4) Remote controller, battery of Inspire 2, Phantom 4 Pro and Phantom 4 Advanced, and modification accessories.
5) Deliberate losses.
6) Abrasions and shell damage that do not affect the performance of the product.
7) Direct or indirect losses caused by force majeure.
8) Replacement requests for damage incurred outside the period of validity.
9) Extra fees resulting from technical enhancements or performance improvements.
10) Damage resulting from modifications that are not in accordance with manual recommendations, or the use of incompatible batteries and charger.
11) Damage resulting from the use of third party accessories, batteries or software.
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Charles Adams
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-14 09:16
As we see below terms for care refresh, I couldn't find warranty one but number 11 is the same on your warranty as it is here for care refresh.
DAMAGE RESULTING FROM THE USE OF THIRD PARTY ACCESSORIES BATTERIES OR SOFTWARE.
This is not lawyer jargon, it is very simply put together to not confuse anyone and for the most is self explanatory, but I will try to make it even more simple.

Your explanation Hallmark007 is the interpretation/explanation under which I was making my choices and I was flying.  It's the explanation that I like and support.

However DJI Elektra's comments seem to contradict the black and white print of these terms.  I'm hoping that a moderator will clarify DJI Elektra's comments and confirm that your explanation is in fact accurate and the one under which DJI will behave.
2017-9-14
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tedder
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I'm baffled about why DJI is reluctant to support OTG.
2017-9-14
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Charles Adams
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tedder Posted at 2017-9-14 09:24
I'm baffled about why DJI is reluctant to support OTG.

DJI Elektra may have "overstated" the company position.  As Hallmark007 points out, the plain language of the warranty indicates that the warranty is not voided, rather it will not be honored if OTG was a direct factor in an incident.

And to all the moderators...  if it was stated in error, that's just part of being human.  Just let us know that it was in error and tell me where to send flowers, chocolate and hugs.
2017-9-14
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JMX46
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I think they may throw around the "void warranty" term a bit liberally just to caution people (in good faith)
2017-9-14
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Sparky_17
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All the points above are without merit and are all very valid points.

In my experience, I don't see a need for the OTG cable as I've always had great connection between the rc and iphone6s.  So for me and until further notice, I will keep my OTG cable in my bag
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Charles Adams
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Sparky_17 Posted at 2017-9-14 10:45
All the points above are without merit and are all very valid points.

In my experience, I don't see a need for the OTG cable as I've always had great connection between the rc and iphone6s.  So for me and until further notice, I will keep my OTG cable in my bag

Based on my reading of the forums, the iPhones seem to have superior wifi connection.  Most issues seem to be related to the android platform.  I've got the Galaxy S7 Edge.
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Charles Adams Posted at 2017-9-14 10:58
Based on my reading of the forums, the iPhones seem to have superior wifi connection.  Most issues seem to be related to the android platform.  I've got the Galaxy S7 Edge.

Yup, I was on vacation with a friend who also has a spark. I asked him to fly my drone for me for a quick video, and he immediately mentioned how my connection is way worse than his. I use Android, he uses iOS.
2017-9-14
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brian_b
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I usually intend to use the cable, but donʻt, because Iʻm so preoccupied with other preflight checks, I forget to plug the cable in, and only realize I left it off after Iʻve exhausted my three batteries. After I take off the phone holder, the phone, and sun hood, I realize the cable was never plugged in. At this point, Iʻve become inadvertently comfortable not using it, so fair enough. When I look at my WiFi bars, I usually have good reception/ low interference- traffic. I use an iPhone. But, really, Iʻd like the cable to be a part of the flight without voiding anything.
2017-9-14
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Wachtberger
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Just to clarify the situation for me, and here it get's somewhat funny. I am not using any third party hard- or software that might raise question marks whether justified or not. I am using the original DJI OTG Adapter that I have bought together with my Spark directly from DJI. And it works perfectly!
2017-9-14
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Wachtberger
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Charles Adams Posted at 2017-9-14 09:33
DJI Elektra may have "overstated" the company position.  As Hallmark007 points out, the plain language of the warranty indicates that the warranty is not voided, rather it will not be honored if OTG was a direct factor in an incident.

And to all the moderators...  if it was stated in error, that's just part of being human.  Just let us know that it was in error and tell me where to send flowers, chocolate and hugs.

"Just let us know that it was in error and tell me where to send flowers, chocolate and hugs."
I also want to send flowers, chocolate and hugs, sincerely!
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hallmark007
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Wachtberger Posted at 2017-9-14 12:15
Just to clarify the situation for me, and here it get's somewhat funny. I am not using any third party hard- or software that might raise question marks whether justified or not. I am using the original DJI OTG Adapter that I have bought together with my Spark directly from DJI. And it works perfectly!

Then refer to number 10.
2017-9-14
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Wachtberger
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-14 12:31
Then refer to number 10.

Come on, you had pointed out the essential criterium yourself earlier. If a malfunction occurs that can be directly attributed to the unsupported use of an OTG cable, I would not hesitate to accept a decline of warranty on behalf of DJI. Nothing to debate here...
But if a malfunction occurs that by no way can be attributed to the use of an OTG cable, the situation is very different and I have no reason to suspect that DJI would use this against me.
P.S. You keep on referring to the DJI care conditions. Just these are not relevant for what we are talking about in this thread.
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hallmark007
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Wachtberger Posted at 2017-9-14 12:43
Come on, you had pointed out the essential criterium yourself earlier. If a malfunction occurs that can be directly attributed to the unsupported use of an OTG cable, I would not hesitate to accept a decline of warranty on behalf of DJI. Nothing to debate here...
But if a malfunction occurs that by no way can be attributed to the use of an OTG cable, the situation is very different and I have no reason to suspect that DJI would use this against me.
P.S. You keep on referring to the DJI care conditions. Just these are not relevant for what we are talking about in this thread.

That's my point we are all responsible and well aware of the rules. I have tried OTG one from my P4 I can't get any benefit what so ever from it. I have heard from others of the benefits but would really like to see some proper testing but haven't seen any proper ones yet.
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Charles Adams
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-14 12:51
That's my point we are all responsible and well aware of the rules. I have tried OTG one from my P4 I can't get any benefit what so ever from it. I have heard from others of the benefits but would really like to see some proper testing but haven't seen any proper ones yet.

What kind of testing would you recommend?  Of course I'm all about testing, and one test I could do (and repeat) would be to perform a specific flight in a specific area where conditions remain (hopefully) static with OTG and without, and report on the observed differences.  I don't have access to a lot of different hardware options, and I wouldn't be able to test the differences between android and iPhone.  But for those parameters that I do control, I could make note of the different experience between the two options.
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hallmark007
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Charles Adams Posted at 2017-9-14 12:55
What kind of testing would you recommend?  Of course I'm all about testing, and one test I could do (and repeat) would be to perform a specific flight in a specific area where conditions remain (hopefully) static with OTG and without, and report on the observed differences.  I don't have access to a lot of different hardware options, and I wouldn't be able to test the differences between android and iPhone.  But for those parameters that I do control, I could make note of the different experience between the two options.

Well I've done some testing myself just distance so I could fly to 450 metres with OTG 472 using wifi open area both lost radio signal at this distance and RTH I used sport mode with both. I use iphone7 . I really would like to see a test that shows OTG has real benefits but so far I have only heard in discussion.
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Charles Adams
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-14 13:03
Well I've done some testing myself just distance so I could fly to 450 metres with OTG 472 using wifi open area both lost radio signal at this distance and RTH I used sport mode with both. I use iphone7 . I really would like to see a test that shows OTG has real benefits but so far I have only heard in discussion.

That makes sense.  Basically turn "opinion" into thesis and conclusions.

My understanding based on forum participation is that iPhone has a much superior wifi connection to the RC than does android devices (and I have android).  This means that I can test for the "weakest" link.  I was thinking of two types of testing.  One is a test where I just run the edges of my park (with and without OTG), and one was a distance test.

I don't think that OTG will benefit iPhone users, because I sense that iPhone is superior in this regard.  I do think/feel/believe that OTG will benefit android users, and I can turn that into data.
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Charles Adams
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I need to add "with and without" Bluetooth to the tests, as many individuals are reporting improved wifi when Bluetooth is off.  And powersaving modes.  This might get kind of complex.
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Wachtberger
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I'd really like to "go outside" with that guy who has most unfortunately started the now persistant rumor saying that with OTG you could get bigger range. From a technical point of view this is absolute rubbish in my view (sorry to use such strong language). Range solely depends on a stable connection between the RC and the Spark. How could the way of connection between your mobile device and the RC have any logical impact on that, it can't I am convinced. There is only one indirect exception concerning us users in Europe who are "somewhat" bound to the limited CE mode.  Here the use of OTG makes it easy to switch between the more stable but shorter range 5.8 Ghz band, or the more fragile but bigger range 2,4 Ghz band for the connection between the RC and the Spark. But then the gain in range is technically due to the 2,4 Ghz band and not to the OTG cable.
For me the benefit of the OTG cable is clearly a more stable connection between the mobile device and the RC as well as assumably also a better quality transmission of the live picture to the App.
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Charles Adams
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Wachtberger Posted at 2017-9-14 13:34
I'd really like to "go outside" with that guy who has most unfortunately started the now persistant rumor saying that with OTG you could get bigger range. From a technical point of view this is absolute rubbish in my view (sorry to use such strong language). Range solely depends on a stable connection between the RC and the Spark. How could the way of connection between your mobile device and the RC have any logical impact on that, it can't I am convinced. There is only one indirect exception concerning us users in Europe who are "somewhat" bound to the limited CE mode.  Here the use of OTG makes it easy to switch between the more stable but shorter range 5.8 Ghz band, or the more fragile but bigger range 2,4 Ghz band for the connection between the RC and the Spark. But then the gain in range is technically due to the 2,4 Ghz band and not to the OTG cable.
For me the benefit of the OTG cable is clearly a more stable connection between the mobile device and the RC as well as assumably also a better quality transmission of the live picture to the App.

Oh frak...  I also need to add 2.4 and 5.8 Ghz bands to the test
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Oracle Miata
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DJI will void a warranty without explanation.  Period.  It is rare that they give an answer as to why they are not honoring something.  Just a friendly reminder.  In my experience I have had no issues with wifi at all.  I actually wish I wouldn't have wasted money on one as I see no change in flight either way.  
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Phuong Do
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Hmm,guys,just wonder...how will DJI know that when your aircraft crashes,you are using OTG?
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Oracle Miata Posted at 2017-9-14 14:28
DJI will void a warranty without explanation.  Period.  It is rare that they give an answer as to why they are not honoring something.  Just a friendly reminder.  In my experience I have had no issues with wifi at all.  I actually wish I wouldn't have wasted money on one as I see no change in flight either way.

cool, you can send me your cable then,
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-14 13:03
Well I've done some testing myself just distance so I could fly to 450 metres with OTG 472 using wifi open area both lost radio signal at this distance and RTH I used sport mode with both. I use iphone7 . I really would like to see a test that shows OTG has real benefits but so far I have only heard in discussion.

It greatly reduces video latency and increases overall quality to your mobile device. It is very obvious.
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Charles Adams Posted at 2017-9-14 09:22
Your explanation Hallmark007 is the interpretation/explanation under which I was making my choices and I was flying.  It's the explanation that I like and support.

However DJI Elektra's comments seem to contradict the black and white print of these terms.  I'm hoping that a moderator will clarify DJI Elektra's comments and confirm that your explanation is in fact accurate and the one under which DJI will behave.

i dont mean offense to dji crew specially not DJI Elektra herself.. but she isn't the most clear about things every time.. sometimes it seems like she is still learning herself.   i'm sure someone will clarify it.. at DJi.   however until solid clarification expect the canned response that they dont reccomend it because it is untested or whatever..

that being said OTG itself will not void warranties.  however if OTG was the cause of failure (which is really hard to prove either way) then its up in the air.  in US and EU this would be a direct violation of laws already in place to protect consumers.  for them to deny it, it has to be a direct result of failure and thus claim on warranty.  this means DJi has to prove it, which they are failure bad at doing thus far.  but i doubt that they are logging if you used OTG vs wifi to begin with..  

im not an attorney, but it seems self explanatory to people willing to research.
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Wachtberger
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Charles Adams Posted at 2017-9-14 13:59
Oh frak...  I also need to add 2.4 and 5.8 Ghz bands to the test

Hello Charles, since you are flying in the FCC region you will probably notice no improvement in 2.4 Ghz band because in FCC mode the transitting power (and consequrntly range of Spark) is at the same level. And if you fly in an area with other WiFi networks around, the 2.4 Ghz band is more exposed to interferences.
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hallmark007
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Jeff7577 Posted at 2017-9-14 17:02
It greatly reduces video latency and increases overall quality to your mobile device. It is very obvious.

You see this is my problem I have absolutely not found this in any degree, maybe my peepers are just getting to old.
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Arnor
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Not sure if OTG warranty void is legal under EU consumer rights : http://europa.eu/youreurope/citi ... eturns/index_en.htm

OTG is advertised with DJI Googles. So OTG is supported by DJI.

Specific phone are supported so if you use those, it's supported by DJI.

Not sure they can so easily void warranty under EU laws.
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Charles Adams
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ImHereToCrash Posted at 2017-9-14 19:07
i dont mean offense to dji crew specially not DJI Elektra herself.. but she isn't the most clear about things every time.. sometimes it seems like she is still learning herself.   i'm sure someone will clarify it.. at DJi.   however until solid clarification expect the canned response that they dont reccomend it because it is untested or whatever..

that being said OTG itself will not void warranties.  however if OTG was the cause of failure (which is really hard to prove either way) then its up in the air.  in US and EU this would be a direct violation of laws already in place to protect consumers.  for them to deny it, it has to be a direct result of failure and thus claim on warranty.  this means DJi has to prove it, which they are failure bad at doing thus far.  but i doubt that they are logging if you used OTG vs wifi to begin with..  

I'm not sure which way I would go, but I think I prefer a moderator who participates in conversations and expresses opinions (and risks being incorrect from time to time) over moderators who minimize their participation.  So kudos and praise to DJI Elektra for answering a question clearly and directly, even if I don't like that answer and even if I think other information contradicts her answer.

Her answer inspired a conversation (and that's what forums are for), and I'm hoping we can encourage her and other moderators to jump in and increase participation.  And answer off script and give opinions and debate finer points.
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Charles Adams
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I don't know when I'll be able to perform my "controlled" tests of OTG and the various variables, but it probably won't be until next week.  It's weekend time, and I'll be heading to my boat.  I have no desire to perform these tests over water .
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El Diablo Posted at 2017-9-15 02:59
i am sure there must be some coding not accessible to users but developers...

ps. You need a bigger lean angle on that avatar of yours

you got a nice bike  
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El Diablo Posted at 2017-9-15 02:54
I use an iPhone 7 plus and cannot fly the drone on wifi only without connection losses. i get mx. 120m before issues start (EU / Munich).

I used only-phone (no RC) only once, and it was the only time the connection was completely lost.

So I'm not flying again without the RC.

> iPhone 6.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-15 03:20
You see this is my problem I have absolutely not found this in any degree, maybe my peepers are just getting to old.

it also depends on your phone/device used.    i found in my limited run with the sparks i did own OTG made a huge difference but as i moved up the stack of efficiency like to the iPhone 7 my GF has and her iPad pro, less of a difference, mostly a range and consistency thing.  probably a 50ms difference in latency between the wifi and OTG, little better on OTG with the iPhone 7 and iPad pro but not much..  i would say 100ms - 150ms

     but moving to the S8 that i owned it was a massive difference in latency, using wifi felt like a good 250=300MS using OTG with wifi disabled it suddenly felt like 150MS-200ms.  still a delay but a lot less.. i dont consider the S8 a slouch with its snapdragon 835 cpu, but definitely a delay in the decoder with wifi.  


using iPad mini 2 with the spark and OTG was similar to my S8 experience, wifi mode it was a latent mess and massive lack of consistency, OTG mode with wifi disabled and it was cleaned way up and dropped back to similar levels if not same latency as the latest apple has...

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Charles Adams Posted at 2017-9-15 04:20
I'm not sure which way I would go, but I think I prefer a moderator who participates in conversations and expresses opinions (and risks being incorrect from time to time) over moderators who minimize their participation.  So kudos and praise to DJI Elektra for answering a question clearly and directly, even if I don't like that answer and even if I think other information contradicts her answer.

Her answer inspired a conversation (and that's what forums are for), and I'm hoping we can encourage her and other moderators to jump in and increase participation.  And answer off script and give opinions and debate finer points.

while i agree with you that it has re-engaged us as a community with concern and gets to to think about things differently.   i also have to say i doubt she is correct on this one.  i think maybe didn't complete her thought or said it wrong.  

my thinking of this is because it is a feature we can utilize it is not blocked by DJI at all, it is in direct violation of laws in place to protect consumers in both the US and EU..  i imagine in other regions/nations and areas as well..  for dji to void our warranties over using OTG.


if i still had a spark, i would still be flying via OTG, no doubt, if Dji claimed i voided my warranty by OTG they will have a hard time legally with me because i will take it all the way up to the top..  

im tired of companies giving consumers a hard time and making false claims thinking we are all ignorant so they can continue to slip by more and more BS.   like when my car got denied a warranty claim because i used sticky summer tires and replaced my intake and exhaust and suspension all to track grade stuff and has a carbon fiber spoiler on it and was tracking it once, i had my attorney contact them and they quickly settled with me out of court before i made a scene about it with BMW.. they covered my car and didn't make another fuss about it..  and yes i decided to get out of racing before i got started, too expensive.. i love driving but im more of back road bomber not a serious track racer..
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