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[POLL] Would You Opt Out of DJI's "Geo Fencing"...If You Could?
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Genghis9
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solentlife Posted at 2017-9-17 10:31
We don't all live in the US of A .....

You guys have had some of the most idiotic flyers and also constitute a large % of flyers ... allied that to the individual States still acting like separate countries in many ways - means arriving at agreed solution nationwide is virtually impossible ... look at state taxes !!

Well sadly I find it hard to disagree with you there Nigel...
Yup we have a large number of idiots, morons, and knuckle heads...I can only chalk it up to the hazards of a free democracy, it's not pretty at times and not perfect but it's ours and I LOVER HER
As for states rights, well that's off topic and whole text books and doctorial thesis have been written on that subject and even a dedicated thread to the subject couldn't cover it all...let's just say it is a fundamental element to our form of democracy and governance and with anything it has its ups and downs.  With respect to taxes the lower the better, I've yet to find a politician who spends my money better than me, just sayin.
Thank you for your input
2017-9-17
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Landbo
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 08:25
Democracy is many things to many people.

When you make demands, you should understand that in a democracy, it is impossible for everyone to achieve everything they want.

No Hallmark007, that's not quite true.

Democracy in a sovereign country means that it is the country's legally elected government, which determines the restrictions to be imposed on the country's population, not a foreign company.

Here in this country, the Danish government is sovereignly deciding where and when this country's population must fly with UAVs, not a foreign company.

Therefore, it is an untimely interference in the internal affair of a democratic country that a foreign company will draw their own homemade rules down over the head of a democratic country's citizens without asking the legally elected government of the same country !!!

Regards Leif
2017-9-17
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Genghis9
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 10:33
Using the car as an analogy is not credible, driving your car you are governed by literally hundreds of rules and regulations, you are policed by authorities cctv cameras general public. The penalties for incorrect use of your car can be extremely high with prison being among the deterrents ,yes the rules are set by your government but you are expected to have insurance tax license etc , you are continually scrutinised for all of your driving life. If you don't drive within the rules you are off the road.

Even small manned aircraft are governed by hundreds of rules, these rules are set down by authorities in your country. But they are also governed by international laws which apply to aviation in your country.

hallmark007
I disagree, I don't know about your own situation where you are, but the car analogy is almost a perfect example here, except for the licensing element and that is only if you don't account for Part 107.  We can get in just as much trouble financially and otherwise for flying a drone somewhere or someway you should not and because so we must have insurance or you could be ruined.
Having some extensive experience with international air travel, I can tell you that as a globe we have this issue fairly already figured out.  Nations control their own airspace in coordination with ICAO and international areas are managed in accordance with ICAO regulations as agreed upon by pretty much all nations.  The issue is integrating this relatively new vehicle a UAV in to the system safely.  This applies as much to Predator operations as much as a Phantom 3.  Hopefully we figure it out before those ton of bricks bury us.
2017-9-17
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Capt Whitefoot
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Is anyone else freaked out that China overrides national airspace regulations?  
First they build an island in the Philippines for their navy, now they want to control the worlds airspace as well.  
No wonder the U.S. military is getting rid of their Chinese drones.  
It stinks no matter how bad your sense of smell might be.
2017-9-17
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hallmark007
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Landbo Posted at 2017-9-17 10:47
No Hallmark007, that's not quite true.

Democracy in a sovereign country means that it is the country's legally elected government, which determines the restrictions to be imposed on the country's population, not a foreign company.


Well then our democratic governments are doing an incredibly bad job of allowing a foreign corp place regulations on goods we own, or are they already aware ?

And I'm not wrong about democracy, democracy can take on many meanings you can even have one at your local golf club.
Your opinions on democracy are yours keep them  to yourself , I don't need you to lecture me on what makes a democracy.
2017-9-17
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 08:47
I thought this debate would descend into a China V USA debacle.

China have made no laws that I know of in the USA.

"a DEBACLE..."  -Interesting choice of words.  You just couldn't resist insulting someone's comment.

You don't think its an act of control when a Chinese corporation chooses whether or not FAA rules are applicable over U.S. airspace?
I spent years sailing around the world, and to think that a corporation has power over the use of national regulated transit is nothing short of overreaching such rights.  If they want to inhibit their products from the full freedom of flight within each nation's laws, that's their choice, but also a bad business idea.  
2017-9-17
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Genghis9
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 11:01
Well then our democratic governments are doing an incredibly bad job of allowing a foreign corp place regulations on goods we own, or are they already aware ?

And I'm not wrong about democracy, democracy can take on many meanings you can even have one at your local golf club.

I agree with your first comments, they are doing a lousy job, but as with most bureaucracies including free minded ones they are happy to let the free market have its way with this, which does not always make for an equitable or reasonable system...I think, in part, for now, it is what we have here.  Until either DJI steps on a government's toes, don't think they'll make that mistake, or the people demand change either in court or from their government DJI will continue to rule the road on this.

As for your other comment, I will stay out of that, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs and thoughts.
2017-9-17
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Genghis9
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Capt Whitefoot Posted at 2017-9-17 11:01
Is anyone else freaked out that China overrides national airspace regulations?  
First they build an island in the Philippines for their navy, now they want to control the worlds airspace as well.  
No wonder the U.S. military is getting rid of their Chinese drones.  

Cap I understand your point but technically DJI is not the Chinese government.  I know how you can make that leap, but for the sake of the debate at best Chinese government has plausible deniability.  As for south china sea, a lot depends on what the international community decides, right now those instant islands are not recognized as sovereign territory which does not afford them airspace and navigable water rights.  The US military is flying & sailing constant freedom of navigation missions around those areas, either China will have to concede they have no right or eventually fire on those ships or aircraft which changes things for the worst.
Let's stay focused on this being an issue of a foreign corporation controlling our property and then see where it takes us.
Thanks!
2017-9-17
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hallmark007
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Capt Whitefoot Posted at 2017-9-17 11:05
"a DEBACLE..."  -Interesting choice of words.  You just couldn't resist insulting someone's comment.

You don't think its an act of control when a Chinese corporation chooses whether or not FAA rules are applicable over U.S. airspace?


You see for you it seems to be about the Chinese because I had heard nothing about go pro karma and other drone companies who have also imposed same flying NFZ zones, but I hear no mention of these corporate companies so yes it very much looks like because they are Chinese they are singled out.

I didn't make an insulting comment, I made a factual comment. Maybe you should check it out.

And do you really think dji are doing this if it's going to hamper their business, I have listened to that for five years now and yet dji have grown exponentially in that time to become the largest drone company in the world.
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Landbo
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 11:01
Well then our democratic governments are doing an incredibly bad job of allowing a foreign corp place regulations on goods we own, or are they already aware ?

And I'm not wrong about democracy, democracy can take on many meanings you can even have one at your local golf club.

Your opinions on democracy are yours keep them  to yourself , I don't need you to lecture me on what makes a democracy.

See see, it was not the democratic but the totalitarian Hallmark007 showing  his pure flag here.

If Hallmark likes it or not, the airspace below 150 meters AGL is not subject to other international agreements / rules than it is the different countries that sovereignly decide how to use it. That is why you see all the countries in Europe have completely different rules regarding the use of AUV's. And it is constantly being adjusted to the rules in the different countries !!!.

Regards Leif.

PS. If you are so unhappy with my interpretation of democracy, you should not answer me the first time I brought the topic up.
2017-9-17
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hallmark007
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Landbo Posted at 2017-9-17 12:28
Your opinions on democracy are yours keep them  to yourself , I don't need you to lecture me on what makes a democracy.

See see, it was not the democratic but the totalitarian Hallmark007 showing  his pure flag here.

Again I never said anything about your opinion on democracy, regarding European rules on drone flying, there is already a major undertaking by EASA of which I have attended many meetings and represented drone flyers from Ireland who have already put forward their proposals for new safety regulations and a policy for flying under one set of rules for all of Europe, you will be glad to know that Denmark was also represented at these meetings and talks.
EASA are the body charged with regulating safety of aviation throughout Europe, yes Denmark as well, and are at present working with all member states to develop a new set of rules and regulations for drone flying in all of member states, I believe we will see in the next 18 months one set of rules which will encourage flying and the development of drone participation throughout Europe.

But I guess you know different!!!,
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 11:21
You see for you it seems to be about the Chinese because I had heard nothing about go pro karma and other drone companies who have also imposed same flying NFZ zones, but I hear no mention of these corporate companies so yes it very much looks like because they are Chinese they are singled out.

I didn't make an insulting comment, I made a factual comment. Maybe you should check it out.

I thought i said Chinese corporation.  Sorry.  
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 11:21
You see for you it seems to be about the Chinese because I had heard nothing about go pro karma and other drone companies who have also imposed same flying NFZ zones, but I hear no mention of these corporate companies so yes it very much looks like because they are Chinese they are singled out.

I didn't make an insulting comment, I made a factual comment. Maybe you should check it out.

I meant to say Chinese corporation, not the government.  But having spent 10 years as a missionary to China, there is a reason why the line that separates the two seems so thin.  Remember that China is a Communist nation.  All corporations adhere to the mission of the Country.  And from my experience, I can assure you if the Chinese Government tells a corporation to "do this", there is no choice in the matter.  I've seen enough Chinese companies face their end in such manner.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 11:21
You see for you it seems to be about the Chinese because I had heard nothing about go pro karma and other drone companies who have also imposed same flying NFZ zones, but I hear no mention of these corporate companies so yes it very much looks like because they are Chinese they are singled out.

I didn't make an insulting comment, I made a factual comment. Maybe you should check it out.

Debacle: noun
a sudden and ignominious failure; a fiasco.

You don't think calling someone's opinion a "ignomious failure" is insulting?  How difficult is it to as for respect towards someone who's opinion doesn't align with your own?
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Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-17 09:11
Nauticalman,
I love your passion, I truly do!  However, please let's stick to the things we know for sure.  I can argue that China's economy needs us as bad as we have unnecessarily grown dependent on them.  Further, no laws have been created and like it or not it is plausible, at present, to think that the FAA has worked behind the scenes to force this on us in order to not look like the bad guy.  If that latter is correct then sooner rather than later if we expose as much then we have a chance to force that to stop and reverse it.  Right now there is no proof either way, and just saying it is not good enough.  For the present let us just have a healthy debate using our brains and grit, leaving the hyperbole at home while attempting to learn, understand, and convince.  
Please and Thank You

Everyone here seems to be hyper-conspiracy-paranoid.  I was merely implying that I would RATHER NOT have such a possibility of a foreign corporation supersede any FAA regulations.  I WASN'T trying to imply that it is in fact happening at this very moment.  You invited us to vote.  And I selected the vote to not have such entities interfere with our FAA.  Now somehow when I expressed that in my own words, people seem to jump on the "he's one of those conspiracy wackos" conclusion bus when I was merely attempting to state an opinion that I assumed wasn't going to be taken out of context.
2017-9-17
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Genghis9
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Capt Whitefoot Posted at 2017-9-17 18:58
Everyone here seems to be hyper-conspiracy-paranoid.  I was merely implying that I would RATHER NOT have such a possibility of a foreign corporation supersede any FAA regulations.  I WASN'T trying to imply that it is in fact happening at this very moment.  You invited us to vote.  And I selected the vote to not have such entities interfere with our FAA.  Now somehow when I expressed that in my own words, people seem to jump on the "he's one of those conspiracy wackos" conclusion bus when I was merely attempting to state an opinion that I assumed wasn't going to be taken out of context.

Cap...I don't think that
Rather the issue is that of conflating the hegemony of China, which is real, with that of DJI a drone company.  While we know in a communist country those lines can be blurred, I think for the moment it is far more useful to address this as a problem with a possible overreaching corporation than a David and Goliath scenario.  
If we are to address this problem then we should and must first attack it from the standpoint of the business and move on and out from there.  Besides, even if China is fully behind this the chances of them being driven to a change is not very likely.  For now this is a process for debate, and hopefully in the process achieve some change or at the very least change some minds.  It sure looks like there are plenty of minds needing to be changed and you catch more bees with honey, not by throwing pebbles in the pond.  Please understand...
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KEDDK
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Hi guys, come down please, this is not a Q about who and from what kind of regime this is coming from at all.

It is just a Q if this is alright and in my opinion it is not, likewise for the login to App thing.
There is to many things that can go wrong so that we would all end up 100% grounded until some hackers would save us, that is what i would like to avoid before it happen.
We already have seen some big impact when something in DJI's system was down so that users could not login, i believe also that DJI's servers are to blame when people can't get their crafts registered when in fact they have made a connection to the big net.
2017-9-17
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Landbo
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-17 13:05
Again I never said anything about your opinion on democracy, regarding European rules on drone flying, there is already a major undertaking by EASA of which I have attended many meetings and represented drone flyers from Ireland who have already put forward their proposals for new safety regulations and a policy for flying under one set of rules for all of Europe, you will be glad to know that Denmark was also represented at these meetings and talks.
EASA are the body charged with regulating safety of aviation throughout Europe, yes Denmark as well, and are at present working with all member states to develop a new set of rules and regulations for drone flying in all of member states, I believe we will see in the next 18 months one set of rules which will encourage flying and the development of drone participation throughout Europe.

Your opinions on democracy are yours keep them  to yourself.

However, I must note that Mr. Hallmark007 has a very very short memory as it is Mr. Hallmark007 own words.

The thread discusses DJI's self-target with their self-directed GEO / NFZ system and not EASA's work in the field of prof UAV flight. According to my sources, nothing realy happens in hobby flights, because the interests and legislation of the Member States are far too different. Therefore, you also see the different countries in the EU get their own new different rules at this time.

So yes, I have a slightly different perception of the reality, than what Mr Hallmark007 stands for.

Regards Leif.
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KEDDK Posted at 2017-9-17 21:11
Hi guys, come down please, this is not a Q about who and from what kind of regime this is coming from at all.

It is just a Q if this is alright and in my opinion it is not, likewise for the login to App thing.

You explain my attitude better than I am capable of, thanks.

Regards Leif.
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Capt Whitefoot Posted at 2017-9-17 18:50
Debacle: noun
a sudden and ignominious failure; a fiasco.

Debacle comment was meant as a general comment regarding the debate, not just towards poster.

Regarding Chinese government or Chinese corporation changing laws in US well the fact of that is neither of them have.

The fact that only the Chinese are mentioned in this debate leads me to believe that it's not about those who impose NFZ it's more about the Chinese.
2017-9-18
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Landbo Posted at 2017-9-17 22:38
Your opinions on democracy are yours keep them  to yourself.

However, I must note that Mr. Hallmark007 has a very very short memory as it is Mr. Hallmark007 own words.

I think if you care to read the memo of articles from EASA you would clearly see that hobbyists are very much included, in fact no group of RC flying will be left out.
With regards to making rules from each country, this is obviously necessary as at the moment there is no one organisation has taken this on board until EASA stepped in and they are the obvious choice as they operate similar for manned aviation .
Yes this debate is about dji imposing NFZ bans on their customers, and whether this has happened as a lone decision of dji or with consultation through relevant bodies i.e.  CE your own aviation authorities ICAO EASA etc,
There seems to be no proof they did and equally no proof they didn't. If what they have done is illegal then it is up to the relevant bodies to take them to task over this, but the lack of action from anybody looks to me they don't care they are not concerned they think it's the safest action to take with the growing number of drones taking to the skies.
In the EU CE are guardians of the rules for manufacturing quality and spec for drones sold and used in the EU is it improbable that discussion between CE and dji would not have taken place and if not how was this allowed to happen, or does discussion need to take place.
It beggars belief that dji would act illegally with no consideration for European customers governments aviation bodies the CE.
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Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-17 20:23
Cap...I don't think that
Rather the issue is that of conflating the hegemony of China, which is real, with that of DJI a drone company.  While we know in a communist country those lines can be blurred, I think for the moment it is far more useful to address this as a problem with a possible overreaching corporation than a David and Goliath scenario.  
If we are to address this problem then we should and must first attack it from the standpoint of the business and move on and out from there.  Besides, even if China is fully behind this the chances of them being driven to a change is not very likely.  For now this is a process for debate, and hopefully in the process achieve some change or at the very least change some minds.  It sure looks like there are plenty of minds needing to be changed and you catch more bees with honey, not by throwing pebbles in the pond.  Please understand...

Thats what I've been trying to say.  I think because I used the words "China" and "corporation" in the same sentence, people assumed that I was talking ultra-political about the situation in which wasn't my intent.  Local Aviation administrations have the best grasp and better knowledge about the airspace needs of that specific area than an entity that most likely has not been to my neck of the woods.  Its best to keep such regulations within the hands of those who are best positioned with the best knowledge of such.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-18 01:11
Debacle comment was meant as a general comment regarding the debate, not just towards poster.

Regarding Chinese government or Chinese corporation changing laws in US well the fact of that is neither of them have.

Yes, its quite obvious the misunderstanding of relating a foreign corporation was judged more as a "political" disagreement than that of its intended context of keeping such restrictions best where the most familiar entities can render such decisions
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Genghis9
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-18 01:11
Debacle comment was meant as a general comment regarding the debate, not just towards poster.

Regarding Chinese government or Chinese corporation changing laws in US well the fact of that is neither of them have.

hallmark007
Sorry dude, but you have got to know that is a patently unfair correlation to make, seriously.  We are talking about a Chinese company who is headquartered in China, a communist nation.  There is NOOooo way we cannot not talk about China or imply China nor ignor China as potentially or otherwise having some kind of direct or indirect impact on this discussion, it would be nearly impossible.
Now as to your mention of the lack of other companies, well let's see Yuuneec is Chinese are they not, so that would up the anti by far.  As to Karma, yes GoPro is US based so at 2 to 1 there is no balance.  However, this discussion is about DJI geo fencing not Yuneec or Karma...so again it makes it darn hard to not talk about a "Chinese" company.  Yet, I will give you this, the discussion should focus on DJI's execution of the fencing not what company they are or where they are based...let's try that, please.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-18 01:33
I think if you care to read the memo of articles from EASA you would clearly see that hobbyists are very much included, in fact no group of RC flying will be left out.
With regards to making rules from each country, this is obviously necessary as at the moment there is no one organisation has taken this on board until EASA stepped in and they are the obvious choice as they operate similar for manned aviation .
Yes this debate is about dji imposing NFZ bans on their customers, and whether this has happened as a lone decision of dji or with consultation through relevant bodies i.e.  CE your own aviation authorities ICAO EASA etc,

Now those were some good points!
2017-9-18
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Capt Whitefoot Posted at 2017-9-18 03:23
Thats what I've been trying to say.  I think because I used the words "China" and "corporation" in the same sentence, people assumed that I was talking ultra-political about the situation in which wasn't my intent.  Local Aviation administrations have the best grasp and better knowledge about the airspace needs of that specific area than an entity that most likely has not been to my neck of the woods.  Its best to keep such regulations within the hands of those who are best positioned with the best knowledge of such.

Agreed
...and I accept you at your word
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Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-18 08:28
hallmark007
Sorry dude, but you have got to know that is a patently unfair correlation to make, seriously.  We are talking about a Chinese company who is headquartered in China, a communist nation.  There is NOOooo way we cannot not talk about China or imply China nor ignor China as potentially or otherwise having some kind of direct or indirect impact on this discussion, it would be nearly impossible.
Now as to your mention of the lack of other companies, well let's see Yuuneec is Chinese are they not, so that would up the anti by far.  As to Karma, yes GoPro is US based so at 2 to 1 there is no balance.  However, this discussion is about DJI geo fencing not Yuneec or Karma...so again it makes it darn hard to not talk about a "Chinese" company.  Yet, I will give you this, the discussion should focus on DJI's execution of the fencing not what company they are or where they are based...let's try that, please.


I never implied you couldn't talk about Chinese company, and it shouldn't be twisted that way, but just to give you an idea about what I mean, Apple is being hammered in Europe with fines for not protecting it users data, they are reported on the news and in the media as Apple corporation, not as that American corporate company run by Americans.
Would you as a US citizen like to somehow be held responsible just because you are American for the  Disgraceful and illegal way Apple has treated its customers.
Im all for coming down hard on corporate bodies throwing their weight around and misusing their customers trust, but I'm not about to blame the US government or its people or the Chinese government or its people for something a corporate body may or may not be guilty of.
If you want to debate the ins and outs of Chinese culture take it to a different forum .
2017-9-18
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-9-18 08:45
I never implied you couldn't talk about Chinese company, and it shouldn't be twisted that way, but just to give you an idea about what I mean, Apple is being hammered in Europe with fines for not protecting it users data, they are reported on the news and in the media as Apple corporation, not as that American corporate company run by Americans.
Would you as a US citizen like to somehow be held responsible just because you are American for the  Disgraceful and illegal way Apple has treated its customers.
Im all for coming down hard on corporate bodies throwing their weight around and misusing their customers trust, but I'm not about to blame the US government or its people or the Chinese government or its people for something a corporate body may or may not be guilty of.

Fair enough, and for now I am inclined to agree with you.
Just so you know, I have no problem with European news outlets ID'ing Apple as an American Corp. after all it is true and a fact.  However, you are correct no nations citizenry should be responsible for one of their own country's companies.  However, one could argue that a nation's citizenry bare some responsibility for their government, as any government ultimately obtain their authority from those of the governed.  Yet one can then argue that that becomes a bit strained when the government is Machiavellian, oppressive, and dictatorial, however, look how Poland changed, and East Germany, and even Russia (maybe).  It can be complicated...
So how bout that Babylonian Tupperware?
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Thread closed as it devolved and has become off-topic. Sorry OP.
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