Phantom3/litchi,night flight,200 feet overhead, rural area, sober, with almost zero wind ground level.

Experienced:

Normal respons and speed heading east but struggled the opposite direction making at less than.half speed. It was audibly different as well.

Can wind vary that much from ground to 200 feet?

Thanks for any input

Wind gust can occur at many different altitudes. Did the drone fly ok at lower altitudes if so then yes wind is the posible cause.Ive seen drones on dead calm days fly straight up for about 100 - 150 feet then all of a sudden they start flying sideways yet not wind at all at ground level

It was so late I couldn't replicate it much lower due to disrupting the neighbors. It was so disorienting and erratic I I felt it best to keep overhead. Crazy clouds here earlier today.. I will try to post them

Earlier today

Easiest way to find out wind speed is to switch to atti mode and see how fast it drifts away, speed is shown in the Go App.

You can also check the aircraft attitude using the circular display that is the alternative to the map, if it is windy then the display will show it tilted in the direction of the wind.

You can also have a look in the log files to see how tilted it was when not moving.

I have flown with almost no wind at ground level and 40kph at 100m.

Maybe, maybe not.
Those are cirrus clouds which indicate strong winds above 20000 ft but 200 ft isn't terribly high.
I wouldn't expect winds to be hugely different over just 200 ft.

It's easy to become disoriented flying at night.
To find out what really happened you need to look at the recorded flight data.
Go to http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/Upload/
Follow the instructions there to upload your flight record.
Come back and post a link to the report it provides.

Depends on your regional terrain and wind direction.  If you're behind a hill, the hill may be blocking significant wind.  In fact, it might even be dead calm where you're standing and very windy up high.  I never fly without checking the wind online - both speed and direction.  I like uavforecast.com coupled with windy.com and I check wind at 100 meters.  Launching and testing the wind in ATTI works too, but by that time you're already in the air.  

Obviously, if you're on flat terrain, gauging wind is a lot easier.  

Yes wind speed and direction to a degree or two can change within 200ft of the ground.

Remember that up 200ft - there is no additional drag caused by objects on the ground - trees etc.

If you go really really high - jetstream altitudes - then you are talking windspeed constantly in three figures speeds - but that's uber high.

I am will post the location with elevations in a bit.. it's making sense now

I was flying left and right only..my location far left at 382 sea level,  houses on far right at 419 feet

This is my location

I was struggling to fly to the right so the wind makes since

Woulda Coulda Shoulda
YES...it is entirely possible that you can have different wind readings at 200'AGL than at the surface.  Having flown many approaches with wind shear, I've not only seen it I've experienced it.  You can either see variations in wind direction or speed or both.  As nearly everyone above has noted, wind observations can be effected by terrain, structures, and the environment.  You are flying a high performance UAV that can go places your dad's toy could not.  This is why you have to check wx/environmental factors before every mission and for the zones and altitudes you may be operating in.  You should also take in to account how terrain, forestation, and structures can impact your flight ops.  For example, taking off from a field that is in a bowl terrain wise that is surrounded by trees, while taking off you could experience dead calm but as soon as you clear the trees you could hit a 15 kt wind.  Also, flying on the lee side of a mountain or ridge line you might experience turbulence or rapidly changing winds and speeds, while on the upwind side you could get significant updrafts.
Enjoy!

Also im not sure how significant but you also need to factor in thermal currents these can also effect your flight but im not an expert on these someone else maybe able to clarify for me

Hellsgate Posted at 2017-10-1 19:55
Also im not sure how significant but you also need to factor in thermal currents these can also effect your flight but im not an expert on these someone else maybe able to clarify for me

Thermals may, however, in the lower altitudes not nearly as much...however again, thermals are useful to birds and gliders more than anything but they can also help create little things called thunderstorms.  With those, you not only get updrafts but then you get rapid inflows at the base i.e. lower altitudes, you can also get outflows at the base too.  Yet, as I'm sure you are thinking you wont be flying in or near thunderstorms...

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-10-1 20:37
Thermals may, however, in the lower altitudes not nearly as much...however again, thermals are useful to birds and gliders more than anything but they can also help create little things called thunderstorms.  With those, you not only get updrafts but then you get rapid inflows at the base i.e. lower altitudes, you can also get outflows at the base too.  Yet, as I'm sure you are thinking you wont be flying in or near thunderstorms...

Thanks for clarifying i wasnt 100% sure wether thermals would affect a small drone or not i personaly havent experienced any yet

Hellsgate Posted at 2017-10-1 21:32
Thanks for clarifying i wasnt 100% sure wether thermals would affect a small drone or not i personaly havent experienced any yet

Someday you might,  in hotter climes and the higher you go the more likely it is that you could experience some.  Staying low 100 to 200 feet is not likely to be great, but getting above 200 and you could start to get in to updrafts that even exceed your ability to adjust i.e. the updraft is stronger than the birds ability to descend.  Also they could be turbulent, further making it harder to operate in.  Obviously you can look out for areas that are rocky, desert, and urban i.e. lots of concrete/blacktop, in other words places that collect heat and then radiate it back.  Those all are thermals, not to be confused with updrafts caused by terrain, like a ridgeline or mountain range.

It was definitely the wind, I was flying my inspire 1 in atti mode yesterday and it was completely calm on the ground, the inspire was flying straight up, when it reached around 280 feet the wind took it and it started to drift west at 15 mph. It was it entered the jet stream.

Easiest way to find out what the the wind is doing is to use a helium filled balloon and release it at your take off site. Watch what the balloon does as it goes higher

Hellsgate Posted at 2017-10-2 13:47
Easiest way to find out what the the wind is doing is to use a helium filled balloon and release it at your take off site. Watch what the balloon does as it goes higher

Hrmmm unfortunately my Phantom case is too small for a helium tank.  Shucks.  And would you toss a rubber deflated balloon in the forest (littering) or into the water?  That's exactly what you're doing.  It's going to come down some time.

The easiest way (for us Phantom pilots) to see what the wind is doing is to switch into ATTI mode and look at your horizontal drift speed and direction on the on-screen display.  Too bad Mavic _pilots_ and Spark "users" don't have that luxury thanks to DJI.

Thanks everyone...I went back out last night and had the same conditions.I tried the recommended atti setting at 5 different altitudes from 50 to 400 feet. Learned alot

At what wind speed does a drone like a phantom lose the ability hover on point? Make forward progress against it?

That's a good question.  It's probably about the same wind speed that DJI recommends not to fly.  That would be around 15-20 mph depending on the AC.  Can you make forward progress at that?  If you're in RTH, yes, but it's very slow.  If you're flying GPS, yes but it's still slower than you would like.  You can go to ATTI/sport mode but then you're risking a battery problem.  

Hellsgate Posted at 2017-10-1 21:32
Thanks for clarifying i wasnt 100% sure wether thermals would affect a small drone or not i personaly havent experienced any yet

Thermals affect everything they contact.   When I fly in the mountains I often have strong winds in the valley or ravines and even at altitude where the clouds below may not be moving but the clouds above are ripping along.   

Mark I asked because anytime in have ever asked someone with hands on knowledge it rarely coincides with what's taught or written.

Flychicken Posted at 2017-10-2 15:39
At what wind speed does a drone like a phantom lose the ability hover on point? Make forward progress against it?

The very simple answer is that a Phantom loses the ability to make headway against the wind when the wind speed is faster than the drone can fly.

Irate Retro Posted at 2017-10-2 14:10
Hrmmm unfortunately my Phantom case is too small for a helium tank.  Shucks.  And would you toss a rubber deflated balloon in the forest (littering) or into the water?  That's exactly what you're doing.  It's going to come down some time.

The easiest way (for us Phantom pilots) to see what the wind is doing is to switch into ATTI mode and look at your horizontal drift speed and direction on the on-screen display.  Too bad Mavic _pilots_ and Spark "users" don't have that luxury thanks to DJI.

The easiest way (for us Phantom pilots) to see what the wind is doing is to switch into ATTI mode and look at your horizontal drift speed and direction on the on-screen display.  Too bad Mavic _pilots_ and Spark "users" don't have that luxury thanks to DJI.

It's just as easy to simply fly directly into the wind at full speed and note how much the wind takes from your normal (still air) top speed.

Ok my helium baloon comment wasnt ment to be serious my apologies for that was just trying to make a point that anything that goes up will get affected by wind currents and that you should watch what is happening as you increase in altitude. (No i dont use helium baloons myself ) lol

Hellsgate Posted at 2017-10-1 21:32
Thanks for clarifying i wasnt 100% sure wether thermals would affect a small drone or not i personaly havent experienced any yet

There are places in the world where thermals can crash a full size manned aircraft!
But for most of us I doubt we would ever notice thermals when flying a GPS guided drone.

Updrafts near cliffs can certainly be noticeable and turbulence around structures or mountain tops can be quite dangerous for a Phantom if you get too close.

Flychicken Posted at 2017-10-2 15:31
Thanks everyone...I went back out last night and had the same conditions.I tried the recommended atti setting at 5 different altitudes from 50 to 400 feet. Learned alot

Share your learning, then we may learn something as well, or maybe we can correct your incorrect learning, or maybe we will just enjoy the resulting argument...

Flychicken Posted at 2017-10-2 15:39
At what wind speed does a drone like a phantom lose the ability hover on point? Make forward progress against it?

Hovering is lost at near the maximum flight speed in sports mode, forward progress becomes very slow as you get near that.

Realistically, flying in more than 50km/h winds is not sensible, even at 40km/h you may start to run into problems, for example active track comes to a halt when flying directly into a 46km/h wind.  RTH will also come to a halt at some point and then you may have to fly it home manually using sports mode to make progress.

Remember that if it gets stuck, you can change altitude into slower winds and then RTH will work again, if you have RTH set for a high altitude it can often be sensible to cancel the climb long before it reaches the set altitude if you know the way back is clear of obstacles at a lower altitude.  The throttle stick will cancel the remaining RTH climb and adjust altitude while returning.

Flychicken Posted at 2017-10-1 16:12
I am will post the location with elevations in a bit.. it's making sense now

I do many building inspections, mostly 8/12 - 12/12 pitched roofs on 6-20 story high rises where it is impossible to get a high reach lift in place due to limited parking space and costs, here in the Daytona Beach area along beachside. These building create eddies and vortices, absolutely need to be on your game when ascending & descending to get to roof levels. A 6mph E wind at ground level can easily create a 30mph Vortices, I have literally had to fly an opposite Ascending Helix to counter, same would apply to close proximities to mountains.

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-10-3 02:00
Hovering is lost at near the maximum flight speed in sports mode, forward progress becomes very slow as you get near that.

Realistically, flying in more than 50km/h winds is not sensible, even at 40km/h you may start to run into problems, for example active track comes to a halt when flying directly into a 46km/h wind.  RTH will also come to a halt at some point and then you may have to fly it home manually using sports mode to make progress.

Nigel,
I see one flaw in your approach, battery power.  Depending on when you start that process, you may not have enough power remaining to make it work, which could result in a worse situation where the bird does a forced landing or worse falls out of the sky.  
My advice to anyone is don't fly in winds greater than 22.4 mph (per the manuals guidance for a P4P).  It may be conservative but it will give you a safe margin for error and in case the winds pick up while you are flying.

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-10-3 02:09
Nigel,
I see one flaw in your approach, battery power.  Depending on when you start that process, you may not have enough power remaining to make it work, which could result in a worse situation where the bird does a forced landing or worse falls out of the sky.  
My advice to anyone is don't fly in winds greater than 22.4 mph (per the manuals guidance for a P4P).  It may be conservative but it will give you a safe margin for error and in case the winds pick up while you are flying.

22.4 mph is not very conservative.  Like I said, you may start to run into problems at 24.8548 mph (40kph) so 22.4 mph only gives you 2.4548 mph safety margin.  I think the manual is correct!

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-10-3 03:07
22.4 mph is not very conservative.  Like I said, you may start to run into problems at 24.8548 mph (40kph) so 22.4 mph only gives you 2.4548 mph safety margin.  I think the manual is correct!

Uh OK
So correct me if I'm wrong...
IF the manual is correct, then according to the manual the max P4P speed:
P-Mode is 31mph delta +8.6mph from max recommended wind speed
A-Mode 36mph delta +13.6mph from max recommended wind speed
S-Mode 45mph delta +22.6mph from max recommended wind speed

Now, I would think that at a minimum if you took off in 22mph winds you'd have nearly 9mph excess speed capability to overcome the wind speed.  Granted not very conservative, but in S-Mode I'd say 22mph excess is quite a bit, and that would be conservative.  If you can't fly in S-Mode then you should reconsider your max wind speed for take off to be below the manuals recommended limit.
I'm at a loss as to where you get 24.8548mph?  We may be talking cross purposes or I'm referring to the wrong UAV stats?

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-10-3 09:05
Uh OK
So correct me if I'm wrong...
IF the manual is correct, then according to the manual the max P4P speed:

I think it is unwise to fly in winds strong enough that RTH can't get home without assistance from the pilot, thus what it can manage in sport mode is irrelevant.  What speed does the RTH come home at on the P4P and what happens if you have a head wind that matches that speed?

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-10-3 09:29
I think it is unwise to fly in winds strong enough that RTH can't get home without assistance from the pilot, thus what it can manage in sport mode is irrelevant.  What speed does the RTH come home at on the P4P and what happens if you have a head wind that matches that speed?

That is an excellent point, and it warrants consideration for someone to think of reducing the max wind limits for their own operations to something they are more comfortable with.
However, I would think that if the manual is stating 22.4mph as the max wind limit, that they (DJI) would have taken this point in to account.  
Unfortunately, the manual does not state the RTH speed the UAV will use to make the return (if it does, please provide the reference).  Therefore there is no way to know the design limits for that.  We could test it, but I'm certain you will get varying results, mostly because of the wind state.  Again, I sincerely doubt DJI would state a max wind limit if they did not factor in the drone's ability to operate in that environment.  However, that last one I would not be surprised to find they did not.