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Active Track "Fly Away" of $400 Spark - Not Happy
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4906 110 2017-12-19
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Kloo Gee
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Weather:
https://www.wunderground.com/his ... amp;reqdb.wmo=99999

Wind Speed        14 mph (WSW)                  
Max Wind Speed        21 mph                  
Max Gust Speed        25 mph
2017-12-20
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Wachtberger
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-20 18:11
Wachtberger - Here is some Active Tracking I did during the weekend.    I have Active Track on and am piloting the drone to the hard right or left depending on the shot.   I am a newbie and thought this was something everyone does... (seriously I am not the first right?)

Others should notice the strength of the wind on the bush near the rocks.  I am using Active Track the whole time and the wind is pretty wicked on our farm (I would say stronger than downtown area).  Never a problem with the wind blowing it 28mph here that I can see.

Thank you. It's really a great technique. I can't say if you are the first one but I would guess that most just let the Spark follow and fly by its own and not actively intervene in its movements while active tracking.
Edit: I was wrong, it's well described here: https://forum.dji.com/thread-124927-1-1.html
2017-12-21
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DJI Elektra
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-20 05:05
Thanks for watching this post.  I appreciate the attention by DJI at this point.  I only waited on hold during the initial call for 5 minutes max (I thought it would be longer).  That person connected me to someone that handles these issues.  They answered right away.  They took my information, told me over the phone how to sync flight records and took enough info to get me an email to report rest of info (that email came within 1/2 hour of call).  I returned the email when I got off work and then received a response email within another 1/2 hour letting me know they would review and I would hear something within a few days.  DJI has been very responsive up to this point.

I still believe I was up high enough to be clear of any strange winds (this would be more obvious if I had the SD card from the AC (no I didn't cache stuff to phone because of memory overload on phone)).  I also note the success of the first pass with absolutely no issues.  Only change is that I backed off the clock tower by about 40 feet for the second pass.

Thanks for your support and patience. Our support will help you locate the problem. Hope it can be solved soon.
2017-12-21
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Bright Spark
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I 'm learning a lot here.
I haven't tried it but in atti mode , no vps, does the spark register speed?
With no ASI only GPS could give speed I think. But that's gone, or you wouldn't be in atti mode.
Also, If speed is set to 14mph in active track,and wind speed was more than that loss was inevitable, unless  RTH or sport mode could  have provided enough speed to  make forward progress.
A few years ago I saw many a video of early drones 'flying away' with the  customary abuse of the product , where with unstabilised cameras the thing was tilted at 45 degrees fighting before it gave up.
But this case is  genuinely  just a hard lesson . You can't know everything - except perhaps there are old pilots and there are bold pilots - but there are no old, bold pilots.

2017-12-21
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Bright Spark
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I think I at least might be on the wrong tack here. Although speed may be restricted to say 14 mph, the spark still has 30 mph  capability to keep position. That's to say it could hover with airspeed of 14 into the wind, but still move into  wind if required with ground speed of 14 mph with stick input.
If that's correct then if  facing downwind at 14 mph, from its perspective it would be quite level, with full fwd stick. Just a thought!
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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Gunship9 Posted at 2017-12-20 17:46
"So if there is no stick movements and you have gps 15sats then Aircraft should stop.
It can’t go any faster than 14mph in auto mode, but yet it’s moving at speed up to 28mph, question how can this happen . Wind ( I don’t believe this happened) so the only other way is if Aircraft went into Atti mode."

First I said if Aircraft has 15 sats and No stick movements it should stop. This is correct in this situation ie subject is not moving.
Active track needs gps to hold its position otherwise it will just drift .

The OP was using Active Track in Profile mode to circle clock tower in order to do this he must use roll left or right depending on which way he wants to circle it, he cannot lower or higher his Aircraft in active track unless he exits active track by pressing X.

He lost downlink at 4.37 restored at 4.41 during this period we don’t know what happened simply because no log details.
At 4.42 all of a sudden Aircraft is moving at 20mph to 28mph straight back , my thinking is this in what modes can Aircraft move at such speeds only 2 sport and Atti , 3rd option being offered up is wind well if you look where he was flying he managed to circle clock tower in Profile mode wind having no effect and all the time he was using roll to complete perfect circle, so unless there was a sudden very large gust of wind then wind would not have caused this.

We know he wasn’t in sport mode so this can be ruled out, so for my theory only other mode Aircraft can travel at such speed is Atti mode, so how! We can see in his video what looks like 15 sats but bar graph looks grayed out this would mean he at this time did not have gps, so when you don’t have gps your Aircraft goes into Atti mode and that’s where wind will have most effect. I’m not saying I’m right I’m just trying to work out why and how an his spark suddenly moves from 14mph to 28mph with no input.
And although it doesn’t warn of no gps or going into Atti mode, I was thinking because this movement was so quick and log ends abruptly that warning hadn’t arrive on screen before log ended.

The OP put up 2 videos in the second video cause of this crash in active track was problem with gps/compass I know this because it was posted here when it happened and this Aircraft was in Atti mode.
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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Kloo Gee Posted at 2017-12-20 20:59
Thanks for posting your FlightRecord for us all to try to parse and learn from.  Unfortunately for me, they raise more questions than answers.  The first one is that I find it very odd that the Flight Time in the video you recorded was only 4:11 and the actual FlightRecord has 4:45.  As you noted, none of the time stamps match up between the video and the FlightRecord log itself.  That is a first for me, but it could be that I just haven't looked that closely before.  Not sure.

Also, I find this FlightRecord to be interesting because this is the first one I've looked at in depth where ActiveTrack was being used.  In looking through the log, it is interesting to see the changes in pitch and movement throughout the log that don't have corresponding inputs from the pilot.  So for me, it is hard to decipher what exactly the active track was attempting to do.  To me though it is clear that there is at least a stiff breeze that is causing the aircraft to pitch and roll to try to compensate for it.  But it isn't clear to me whether it was hard enough to actually knock it off course at a couple of different points (including the final movements) or if that was just due to some "interesting" ActiveTrack behaviors.

As far as I know you cannot lower or higher aircraft in active track you can roll using right stick mode2 to Profile or circle subject , to higher or lower you must exit active track or at least that’s my understanding.
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-20 18:00
hallmark007 - I believe I am suggesting this....



I don’t know about first video, but second video crash was posted here on this forum first it was a problem with gps/compass and result aircraft going into Atti mode.

You must also remember both these videos were filming moving subjects unlike your video which was filming a static subject by using stick movements by you in Profile mode, my question is how can Aircraft move at such speeds and only answer I have is Sport Atti and wind, there are no other modes Aircraft can move this fast without one of for mentioned being activated, or if you know of any?

I’m not trying to imply that this is your fault in anyway, just trying by process of elimination of certain things , to try to find out what happened.
2017-12-21
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CabinPete
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........or the spark just malfunctioned and flew off. Not wind not pilot but the spark.
I can see the logic being applied to find the cause but all this is assuming the spark was in perfect operating order, it might not have been.
Without the drone we/you can assume but will truly never know.
2017-12-21
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S.J
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-20 11:10
S.J - not sure what you mean here.  As the video shows...it clearly sets Home Point and a RTH altitude of 49M at 0:03 seconds into the flight. The green message comes up and tell me just that. The little green "H" shows that it never changes the Home Point to anything else.  If there is something else I should have done... please let me know.  I guess I assume as I have used RTH in other cases that when it set "Home Point Recorded RTH Altitude 49m" that it has indeed set the home point.

I agree with you of course.  If it lost contact with me it should (and it has on a couple of previous flights) did RTH.  But in this case I believe something else happened.

What i meant was manually you have to enter into  the menu and touch the home point RTH
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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CabinPete Posted at 2017-12-21 02:42
........or the spark just malfunctioned and flew off. Not wind not pilot but the spark.
I can see the logic being applied to find the cause but all this is assuming the spark was in perfect operating order, it might not have been.
Without the drone we/you can assume but will truly never know.

You are of course correct it could have been just a malfunction and flew away, but malfunctioning also needs to be explained.
This is either a malfunction or a an error made by pilot, while of course it would be much easier if we had the information from aircraft. We don’t , so all we can do is work with what we know and have and yes we will never be able to say for certain 100% what happened. But we can all learn something from these cases.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-21 02:16
As far as I know you cannot lower or higher aircraft in active track you can roll using right stick mode2 to Profile or circle subject , to higher or lower you must exit active track or at least that’s my understanding.

I believe you have complete control on all directions when in active track.  You obviously can do thins to move in in such ways to actually “lose” active track (similar results to object moving to fast).
I looked at the Flight Record for the video I sent of my son running.  I elevate the AC in a number of places while in active track (including clips I didn't include in YouTube).
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-21 03:13
I believe you have complete control on all directions when in active track.  You obviously can do thins to move in in such ways to actually “lose” active track (similar results to object moving to fast).

I know you can use roll in trace and Profile mode , if you use other stick movements you would then have to re track ie with green box, I know Manual tells you to press X to fly manually or RTH  or pause to hover.

2017-12-21
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RepKK
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Kloo Gee Posted at 2017-12-20 20:59
Thanks for posting your FlightRecord for us all to try to parse and learn from.  Unfortunately for me, they raise more questions than answers.  The first one is that I find it very odd that the Flight Time in the video you recorded was only 4:11 and the actual FlightRecord has 4:45.  As you noted, none of the time stamps match up between the video and the FlightRecord log itself.  That is a first for me, but it could be that I just haven't looked that closely before.  Not sure.

Also, I find this FlightRecord to be interesting because this is the first one I've looked at in depth where ActiveTrack was being used.  In looking through the log, it is interesting to see the changes in pitch and movement throughout the log that don't have corresponding inputs from the pilot.  So for me, it is hard to decipher what exactly the active track was attempting to do.  To me though it is clear that there is at least a stiff breeze that is causing the aircraft to pitch and roll to try to compensate for it.  But it isn't clear to me whether it was hard enough to actually knock it off course at a couple of different points (including the final movements) or if that was just due to some "interesting" ActiveTrack behaviors.

THANK YOU for this indepth analysis.  The picture of the track around the clock tower from the perspective of where I was standing as the pilot... if nothing else... shows my intent to fly the AC around the clock tower and keeping it inline of sight.

Looking back.  There is a moment when (after making a first circle), I did notice the AC move backward more than I felt I was telling it to do so  (and not in the direction of the wind).   From that point on the AC did things I still do not understand... it was moving wider and wider around the tower.   Hind sight, I should have stopped right there.

I still believe the drone was doing something odd.  I believe the final "pitch to 14 degrees" indicates a fly away that cannot be explained due to 15 GPS signals and lack of input from joysticks.

Again, thank you for your analysis.  After hearing from DJI multiple times yesterday - I am hoping to hear from them today or tomorrow as they have indicated.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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S.J Posted at 2017-12-20 20:48
one option while you had your feeling the Spark was out of control is to switch off active track and initiate the rth using the rc

Yes... absolutely.  Unfortunately that was not my very first thought at that moment.  It was more of a "oh crap what is happening..." as I was expecting to simply circle the tower like I just did with no problem a few seconds earlier.

Again, so much has been learned here.  I still think there was an "Active Track" fly away.

But I believe the analysis by Kloo Gee shows that "my intent" was to circle the tower a couple of times while keeping the AC in line-of-sight.  Something obviously went wrong.  

If there is a next time - you can believe the "pause" button on the RC will be the first line of defense.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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Madwand Posted at 2017-12-20 19:22
That's hard to believe from the distance you were from it when it happened.  I can hardly see mine when it's a few hundred feet away.



I believe this rendering by Kloo Gee shows "my intent" and the vantage point I had with the remote.  

I never intended to lose line-of-sight (as shown on the first pass around the clock tower).  It was the second pass that things went wrong.  When things did go wrong - I lost line of sight.  But in this case, I was not intentionally trying to fly out of line of sight.

Hind sight tells me now that hitting the PAUSE button on the remote should have been my first response when I AC was making moves that I was not telling it to do.  "Oh crap what is happening.." is more what I was thinking...
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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I want to thank everyone for their input here.  It has been a learning experience.  One thing I am doing that others are saying is not common is that I am in Active Track while also piloting the AC.  I am beginning to wonder if that is where I am hitting the bug.  Looking at the pictures from Kloo Gee, I can tell you that after circling the tower the first time (and feeling that I was too high and wanting to get a little lower... but staying above the pinnacle), I did try and adjust the gimble up while in Active Track - thinking that would force the AC to lower itself.  That did cause a weird backing (as can be seen in the log where I am not exactly telling the AC to back up right after the first trip around the tower but before I start tracking right again).  Kloo Gee has a red dot at that point for some reason.

Could this be the issue triggering issues?  I also have the front customization button on the RC set to have camera look up and down.  Somebody want to test their spark and tell me what happens when you are in active track and move your gimble up and down?  hallmark007 had good questions about whether you can elivate the AC while in Active Track... I think I have done it and posted a video showing that.  BUT his question does raise the question about what happens when trying to adjust the gimble when in Active Track.  I did try that but cannot tell you what happened as it was within a minute of me going crazy as my AC moved out of sight and dissappear.   If you can test this.... try forcing the camera straight down while in active track (by customizing a button on RC to that option).  Would that force the AC to pitch backward in an attempt to keep tracked object in camera view.  Would love to hear what you guys find out.  Obviously I can't test this right now.

Again, I am hearing that many folks are not "piloting" while in Active Track... so I am just guessing here and grasping at straws I guess.
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-21 04:37
[view_image]

I believe this rendering by Kloo Gee shows "my intent" and the vantage point I had with the remote.  


In that picture the move back was not made by stick movements, but the roll to aircrafts right was made by you and shows in the log.
3.55 to 4.35 100% stick roll movement to aircrafts right

3.16 to 3.22 you were down on elevator but Aircraft does not respond, I think this goes back to what I said about being able to control altitude in active track.

When you move gimbal up Aircraft will move backwards trying to continue to track objects it won’t lower aircraft.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-21 05:31
In that picture the move back was not made by stick movements, but the roll to aircrafts right was made by you and shows in the log.
3.55 to 4.35 100% stick roll movement to aircrafts right

I think I am seeing that.  Could it be that trying to control in Active Track is finding a bug.  I sent something to one of the members here asking them to see if the gimble can be controlled manually during Active Track.

I believe (but cannot confirm because of no drone) that I have controlled elevation while in  Active Track.  My question I sent in Personal Message was to ask if I am correct (guy has a spark) and if the gimble can also be controlled.  THAT would allow elivation to change while just changing the gimble.

Thanks again for your input.  You are a treasure trove of knowledge.
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-21 06:25
I think I am seeing that.  Could it be that trying to control in Active Track is finding a bug.  I sent something to one of the members here asking them to see if the gimble can be controlled manually during Active Track.

I believe (but cannot confirm because of no drone) that I have controlled elevation while in  Active Track.  My question I sent in Personal Message was to ask if I am correct (guy has a spark) and if the gimble can also be controlled.  THAT would allow elivation to change while just changing the gimble.


You can control gimbal and active track will try to keep subject in picture, but it does this by flying backwards, In order to allow it to fly backwards you have to set this in your app which looks like you had done, if you choose to disable this then if spark looses its subject it will just hover, I have never known it to elevate, and it doesn’t show in your log spark gaining or lowering altitude it remains at 160ft throughout this period.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-21 06:44
You can control gimbal and active track will try to keep subject in picture, but it does this by flying backwards, In order to allow it to fly backwards you have to set this in your app which looks like you had done, if you choose to disable this then if spark looses its subject it will just hover, I have never known it to elevate, and it doesn’t show in your log spark gaining or lowering altitude it remains at 160ft throughout this period.

Well for the record... that is exactly what I did around the 2:50 mark in the flight (video not log).  There is a backward movement where you don't see the joysticks move.  

(note here: looking back I am realizing a lot of stuff that didn't make sense at the exact moment)

I am guessing (i know... stupid) that the AC would lower itself to keep object in camera view.  What you are seeing around 2:50 and right after (estimates here) is that the AC moves backward (hallmark007 has verified the Spark will do if you adjust the gimble up during Active Track).  And it does it very quickly.  This is REALLY interesting.

I can remember the AC moving backwards and (at the time) wondering why it did that.  Many have suggested it was the wind (which wasn't blowing in that exact direction).  I believe we are seeing the AC move, in Active Track, without joystick movement.    This is concerning if nothing else.

Thanks to hallmark007 for going the extra mile here.

Is gimble movement via the Remote during an Active Track... something DJI should disable so it doesn't cause the AC to backup in order to try and keep subject in camera view?  Should it move at all or should it go raise and lower altitude to attempt to keep Active Track?

Just FYI... on the video of me tracking my son as he runs to the stack of rocks... I am clocking at 12.2MPH, into a VERY stiff wind, in Active Track, going sideways.  Please note the Spark does not struggle in keeping up.  Look at the juniper bush (at the rocks) to see the wind that is blowing.

2017-12-21
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Bright Spark
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Well for me at least that confirms my theory that if the spark flies into  15 mph wind with zero ground speed, it can call on 15 mph from stick movement to give 15 moh ground speed and 30 mph airspeed.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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So the $400 question is... "If you are in Active Track on a subject this is below the AC altitude and YOU, as the pilot, adjust the gimble to move to a more straight forward position; do you want the AC to move backward (quite possibly in a rapid fashion with even a slight maunal adjustment of the gimble) in an attempt to keep the subject in camera view?"

Or (2)  should it change elevation?

Or (3)  should RC of the gimble be deactivated during Active Track since it is busy working to keep object in the camera?

(After losing a $400 Spark I am thinking at #3 or at least an option to turn gimble control off during Active Track!)
2017-12-21
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hallmark007
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RepKK Posted at 2017-12-21 08:12
So the $400 question is... "If you are in Active Track on a subject this is below the AC altitude and YOU, as the pilot, adjust the gimble to move to a more straight forward position; do you want the AC to move backward (quite possibly in a rapid fashion with even a slight maunal adjustment of the gimble) in an attempt to keep the subject in camera view?"

Or (2)  should it change elevation?

When active track was introduced first all it would do is track moving object, since then it has been improved and Profile and trace modes have been added and to use them you need to control with remote control.
If you take what you were doing , you wouldn’t be able to do that without use of RC, the moving backwards of spark when tracking can be disabled in your app, when spark looses subject it will just hover.
I think the kind of flying you were doing is much better suited to waypoint flying there are a couple of good apps for this type of flying Litchi which is best known, but unfortunately it has not introduced waypoint flying for spark yet, so at present auto pilot would be a good option.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-21 10:04
When active track was introduced first all it would do is track moving object, since then it has been improved and Profile and trace modes have been added and to use them you need to control with remote control.
If you take what you were doing , you wouldn’t be able to do that without use of RC, the moving backwards of spark when tracking can be disabled in your app, when spark looses subject it will just hover.
I think the kind of flying you were doing is much better suited to waypoint flying there are a couple of good apps for this type of flying Litchi which is best known, but unfortunately it has not introduced waypoint flying for spark yet, so at present auto pilot would be a good option.

I am with you 100%... (and yes I am arguing for help from DJI here on the replacement of the Spark from here on out).  

If I am 50-100 yards from a large tracked object and it is below the AC by 20 yards and working to keep it in center of camera view... if I purposely or accidentally hit the gimble up by 5 degrees should that quickly shoot the AC in reverse to keep object in view  (and what if it is 50 yards in reverse)?

I think we are coming to the end of the usefulness of this thread.  Thanks to everyone including hallmark007, Kloo Gee, BJJspark, Bright Spark and Wachtberger for all your input.  I will let you know what DJI says when they respond.
2017-12-21
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Lis Morris
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Hi, I'm a drone noob, but I just wanted add something to consider: an older building like that could have a lead lined roof. Could that have affected the various sensors?

Either way, I'm really sorry you lost your Spark. I hope DJI comes through for you with a replacement.
2017-12-21
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RepKK
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One last question guys/gals,  

Can anyone tell me what happens here in the Flight Log between 4m 37s and 4m 41 seconds when the downlink is lost(?) and then restored after 4.1s?

IMMEDIATELY after that the AC decides to go into reverse without input from me.  This is where I believe something odd has happened that I am not controlling?  In the CSV file the AC clearly pitches up at 14 degrees and starts it's acceleration.

I am assuming Downlink is the communication between AC and remote.  But once resorted it is clearly "out of control".


2017-12-22
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Wachtberger
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The only thing I can contribute to this question is that by then Spark normally should have initiated auto RTH (3 seconds after loss of connection) which could be an explanation for the move backwards and the acceleration. The problem is that I can't see it in your logfile.
2017-12-22
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RepKK
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Alright... SUCCESS.  Got access to the roof of the building today!!!! Found my Spark.  I had a busted front propeller arm, Spark was separated from the battery (which I found) and lost a propeller and LED cover.

Most important got the SD card.  I am sharing the last 30 seconds of the video in a YouTube link here.  Before anyone who hasn't read this thread pounds on me.  I NEVER attempted to go this far away from the clock tower I was tracking.  I was less than 150 from it until the second pass around.  It was during the second pass that the aircraft trying flying away.

In this video, you will see what happens when it goes out of line-of-sight (something I never indeeded for the AC to do).  When I let go of the joysticks from trying to make it move forward and to the right... the video clearly shows the drone accelerating in reverse (while tracking the tower)... until it passes (thankfully) the antennas and CLEARLY is able to stop and initiate a RTH that goes terribly wrong.

Again, I never wanted the drone to go out of line-of-sight, I never intended to go more that 200 feet from the clock tower.   At :06 seconds in is when the flight log shows I stopped pushing to the right and forward attempting to keep the drone from moving away (and yes, hindsight, I wish I had hit the "pause" button on the controller).

I still contend that there is an error in Active Track that can cause the Spark to take off backwards (as it clearly did here).  Please check the flight log (CSV) that I have posted here to see that I did not tell it to go in reverse away from the clock tower.

2017-12-28
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Todd in Chicago
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Wild video!  Really glad you found your Spark.  Hopefully DJI will cover this under warranty.  If not, did you have Care Refresh?  Because now you have the drone!

Pretty amazing footage.

Cheers...

Todd in Chicago
2017-12-28
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Gunship9
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Hmmm, it looks like Kloo Gee guessed it would have crashed on top of the building or just barely missed it.  Both guesses were right.  Hedged his bets and still scored 100 percent.  Nice job.

The drone wasn't in ATTI after all, as it tried to RTH.  I still don't think the Spark tries to hold a position in space while active tracking.  I think it just holds a view of the target.  Tries to keep the same distance from the target but doesn't fall out of active tracking, or take corrective action, if the target recedes into the distance.

You can see the U.S. Flag at 12 seconds and another one at 20 seconds.  Winds don't look that bad but the first flag fluffs straight up then out.  Prop wash from the drone?
2017-12-28
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