I know that I can turn off the engines in the air by a combination of joysticks ... But if this combination should be used by me in flight for piloting? What then? It turns out that you can turn off the motors without even wanting it?

Sounds like a resonable hypothesis but real world testing shows it doesn't work that way.  People trying to kill the motors inflight hit the ground with those control inputs before the motors die.

Gunship9 Posted at 2017-12-24 18:10
Sounds like a resonable hypothesis but real world testing shows it doesn't work that way.  People trying to kill the motors inflight hit the ground with those control inputs before the motors die.

I know of at least one person who turned off the motors in an emergency right in the air!

keymatrix Posted at 2017-12-24 18:28
I know of at least one person who turned off the motors in an emergency right in the air!

Hi, sir. Please note that if you want to stop the motors in flight, you should hold the buttons for over 1.5 seconds. I would recommend users fly with cations and the feature is for stopping unexpected accident. Thanks for your understanding.

It only works in emergency situations (Spark issuing serious error messages). In normal flight situations it will not switch off the motors but the Spark will descend in a controlled and stable helix flight. I have tested it myself. Thus unexperienced users cannot switch off the motors accidentally. In real emergency situations it can however be a very useful feature to prevent greater damage of any kind.

Wachtberger Posted at 2017-12-25 03:02
It only works in emergency situations (Spark issuing serious error messages). In normal flight situations it will not switch off the motors but the Spark will descend in a controlled and stable helix flight. I have tested it myself. Thus unexperienced users cannot switch off the motors accidentally. In real emergency situations it can however be a very useful feature to prevent greater damage of any kind.

Ooo! Now I understand! Big Thanks!!!)

And what are those “emergency situations” where it works, exactly?
In such a situation, i need to know in advance if it will work or not.

Not really!
Aside that you need to push the sticks 3 seconds for a CSC command, the spark is deciding if there is a need for it.
They deactivated the CSC command for normal / accidental use
And dont inform, which flight condition would let the app release the use of that command.
Atti mode, maybe?

As a pilot I need to know how my actions will affect the aircraft, not at least in an emergency situation.
Is that hard so to understand?
I have eyes and though I’m old, they are significantly better to spot an upcoming emergency than the spark is.

heliman Posted at 2017-12-25 05:16
As a pilot I need to know how my actions will affect the aircraft, not at least in an emergency situation.
Is that hard so to understand?
I have eyes and though I’m old, they are significantly better to spot an upcoming emergency than the spark is.

I fully agree with you... but if you don't see your Spark?

Hi DJI Elektra.

I guess from many discussions in this forum that you are part of DJI technical staff and work with forum members to help us understand behaviour of DJI drones and you forward our comments and issues to DJI developers to address. Your comments are valued and appreciated by this community.

However, lately I have see a lot of discussions where DJI responses are evasive and vague. I can also see your comments which are unfortunately inaccurate. For example, your comment above in this thread - and I quote your reply: " Please note that if you want to stop the motors in flight, you should hold the buttons for over 1.5 seconds".
This is not true. There are many videos on YouTube were people tested Spark emergency shut down and it does not work as you described. For example see:
Also, comments from experienced Spark pilots such as Wachtberger confirm that you are wrong.

This is actually very good that the emergency shut down does not work. First of all in a true emergency you do not have 1.5 seconds to react - you usually have split seconds. So 1.5 second wait is useless. In this time a pilot can probably react in much better way. Secondly, the joystick combination which is used for emergency shut down can easily be used for normal drone maneuvering and I bet that, if it worked, most shutdowns would be caused inadvertently and not as a result of a conscious decision to shut down.

In summary - I am happy that you cannot do emergency shut down on Spark. If it was possible before and DJI removed it - good for DJI!

But my point is different. Inaccurate comments from DJI staff erode trust the DJI community has. This combined with recent issues with worsening quality of DJI GO 4 app without any visible improvements over past few months (but few empty words such as - we are working on it) is not good. People pay substantial money for you product and they do deserve accurate information. Simply put, we are here to support you because we like and care about your product and we deserve your respect.

Please answer following two questions for us, and before doing so, please do thorough research with your development staff to ensure that your responses are 100% accurate:
- in what emergency situation may DJI Spark actually follow the emergency shut down procedure (as Wachtberger seems to imply - there may be such situations).
- why DJI chose to block DJI Spark responses to RC while Spark is climbing up in RTH sequence (this question is from different post I did but, since I have your attention, I may as well ask). If this is for safety reasons, please explain what safety reasons would automatically override pilot's conscious effort to halt Spark climb up. As a matter of fact, if this is "safety feature", this safety feature just did a lot of damage for me which would have been totally avoided if it was not implemented. (for more details about that see: https://forum.dji.com/forum.php? ... D517%26typeid%3D517),

Mirek

Mirek6 Posted at 2017-12-25 11:42
Hi DJI Elektra.

I guess from many discussions in this forum that you are part of DJI technical staff and work with forum members to help us understand behaviour of DJI drones and you forward our comments and issues to DJI developers to address. Your comments are valued and appreciated by this community.

Dear Mirek, what you are writing here is a serious misinterpretation of my post. What DJI Elektra has responded is absolutely correct (see below extract from the user manual). In my post I have only added the information that DJI has wisely limited the CSC function to emergency situations in order to avoid accidental use.
At no point my post has stated anything opposite to what Elektra has stated and I do not allow you to abuse my post in such a way. Therefore I herewith formally request you to amend your post accordingly or even better delete it in it's entirety, because it creates overall a totally wrong picture. In addition you are mixing up two very diffent issues here that are not at all related. Linking it to your own case is unfair because it relates to a very unusual flight situation. I and other pilots have explained to you how you could have avoided it and it is more than unfair to blame Elektra now for it. Thank you for understanding this!

keymatrix Posted at 2017-12-25 11:22
I fully agree with you... but if you don't see your Spark?

This still does not invalidate heliman's statement.  Whether I see or do not see Spark, I want to fully understand what happens if I take action with my joystick or RC.

I go one step more: I want to fully understand in what situations Spark may decide to override my manual actions and I need to fully understand reasoning behind such design decision. Otherwise I cannot trust Spark's behaviour.  

Mirek6 Posted at 2017-12-25 13:30
This still does not invalidate heliman's statement.  Whether I see or do not see Spark, I want to fully understand what happens if I take action with my joystick or RC.

I go one step more: I want to fully understand in what situations Spark may decide to override my manual actions and I need to fully understand reasoning behind such design decision. Otherwise I cannot trust Spark's behaviour.

And you can best achieve this by training yourself before accusing and abusing others. However, not to forget: Merry Christmas!

I did not forget - Merry Christmas Wachtberger.

Wow! I can only blame your outburst on the nuances of English (it is not my first language) where something got lost in translation. I try to choose my words very carefully and fail to understand your pretty judgmental, in my humble opinion, post about me accusing and abusing others. Where exactly did I do this? Was it by saying that you are an experienced Spark pilot or by telling DJI Elektra that his/her comments are valued and appreciated by community?
Or maybe by stating facts and asking for answers? How can I do what you asked me to do - namely "train myself" - if I do not ask questions or question the answers if my questioning feels legitimate? Or, if I feel intimidated that my questions may be interpreted by some as inappropriate?

I value your opinion and you helped me and others a lot. I value DJI Elektra opinion and he/she helped forum users a lot.
However, I am also in software business for over 30 years and I know first hand what good design and good support are all about. And what professional courtesy is.

We are here to help each other and to learn. To do this, we need to trust that nobody is trying to abuse or accuse anybody. Members of community simply express legitimate concerns, however misguided they may be.  
If you believe I seriously misinterpreted your words, this was certainly not my intention, nor was it my intention to criticize DJI Elektra. I will not quote your experience  again if this is going to lead to unnecessary situations like that. Please accept my apologies if this offended you.

With DJI Elektra, by pointing out inaccuracies and misleading statements, I do not try to criticize or judge - I try to provide honest feedback to help DJI with better support and with better satisfaction of their customers. I also try to learn and "train myself" to be a better pilot. And training is not possible without thorough understanding. Yes, I read manual, and yes, in this case, the manual is wrong, or, at least,  misleading because it states something which is simply not true in normal situations. This is why we are here - not to blindly follow the manual, but to understand and provide feedback if something requires more explanation or is incorrect. Also, if DJI staff member is imprecise, better to call it out and ask for clarification than simply shut up, sugar coat, and believe in every word even if we know it is inaccurate.

My questions, whether they are to you, DJI Elektra, or anybody else who really knows still stand. I will not refer to your words Wachtbereger in order not to offend you again so here we go again:

- Experience shows (through multiple people trying it out as witnessed in YouTube videos) that, contrary to what  DJI manual states and what DJI Elektra stated, holding joysticks in CSC position for longer than 1.5 seconds will not, in fact, cause the motors to shut down. At least not in normal situations which is probably huge majority of them. If there are any situations where this could actually happen, please list them and let the community know why was it important to make such design decision. Or point us to the appropriate Release Notes for DJI Spark firmware which explain that. It is very important that we do understand when the drone can fall from the sky and when it can't.

As for my second question, yes it is not exactly related to this post. But it is related in a way that it also is asking DJI to explain their design decision. Which, contrary to how Wachtberger interpreted, has nothing to do with my previous incident but, was simply prompted by my incident. I did not understand certain Spark behaviour (which I understand now) but I question wisdom of DJI design decision and want to understand why they made it. It has everything to do with "training myself" and, by doing this openly, helping everybody else understand. Perhaps I am missing something in my logic. But if so, I ask for clarification.

I will do it privately via direct question to DJI Support.

Mirek

It has been 3 or 4 months since I've tested, but I could not get the CSC to work under normal circumstances with the Spark.  Check out the 2 videos I made about it:

Mirek6 Posted at 2017-12-25 21:15
I did not forget - Merry Christmas Wachtberger.

Wow! I can only blame your outburst on the nuances of English (it is not my first language) where something got lost in translation. I try to choose my words very carefully and fail to understand your pretty judgmental, in my humble opinion, post about me accusing and abusing others. Where exactly did I do this? Was it by saying that you are an experienced Spark pilot or by telling DJI Elektra that his/her comments are valued and appreciated by community?

I wish to apologise should my response have been offensive or not appropriate in your perception. I for myself felt indeed abused where you have referred to my explanation for telling Elektra that she had given you a wrong response.
However, I agree with you and others here that it would be helpful to have a better idea on when exactly the CSC function is available.

a friend of mine had is Phantom 3 fall out of the air when a friend he let fly used the wrong (or right) stick combination.   So it can has happened before, but admittedly on a P3 over a year ago.

The newer phantom 4 pro uses left-stick-down-right together with the rth button for midflight motor stop. That’s safer.
The spark needs a working motor cut that doesn’t get activated by accident.
I would like using two or three buttons and no sticks.

heliman Posted at 2017-12-27 00:33
The newer phantom 4 pro uses left-stick-down-right together with the rth button for midflight motor stop. That’s safer.
The spark needs a working motor cut that doesn’t get activated by accident.
I would like using two or three buttons and no sticks.

I agree with you! This option is more logical and safe! And excludes accidental stop of engines!

keymatrix Posted at 2017-12-27 03:08
I agree with you! This option is more logical and safe! And excludes accidental stop of engines!

Regardless what your manual tells you, the way spark mid air Cut Off works is as follows.

If you have what’s known as critical error . Example one of your motors stops working or you hit something mid air, then holding sticks in the CSC position will cut your motors.

So first there is no way of accidentally cutting your motors. Try it you can’t !

So when would you need to Cut motors in the air apart from what I’ve mentioned above, some might say when you see an aircraft , if you get to this stage where you see an aircraft you will have plenty of time to lower your aircraft and remember usually you will only find aircraft in your altitude when landing or taking off, so you should not be flying in this area and if you are your aircraft will be forced landed unless you have permission.
Can you imagine flying in an area where manned aircraft will be flying and not watching and being aware of what might be around you, so cutting your motors because you might see an aircraft is likely to cause much more damage on the ground by landing on someone’s head.

In all other cases of contact you will be able to Cut motors .
What you need to let us know in what situations cutting your motors would be the safest option and how and why you would envisage this.

The spark sometimes refuses to move if obstacle avoidance sees something irrelevant, so it won’t get out of the way easily.
Lowering the spark may make the child run into it instead of the mother.
A zero-delay throttle cut could let it drop in time.
It could also be useful if the spark decides to fly on it’s own. To drop it before it goes to sea.
Or to drop it if a prop fails (it will spin very fast and uncontrollable).

I could have used it when a bicyclist barely avoided getting it in the face in the forest. It refused to move away from the path.
I don’t understand why somebody have objections against this standard-security-feature-in-the-rc-world.
It has saved my rc-helicopters many times during the years.

Wachtberger Posted at 2017-12-25 13:26
Dear Mirek, what you are writing here is a serious misinterpretation of my post. What DJI Elektra has responded is absolutely correct (see below extract from the user manual). In my post I have only added the information that DJI has wisely limited the CSC function to emergency situations in order to avoid accidental use.
At no point my post has stated anything opposite to what Elektra has stated and I do not allow you to abuse my post in such a way. Therefore I herewith formally request you to amend your post accordingly or even better delete it in it's entirety, because it creates overall a totally wrong picture. In addition you are mixing up two very diffent issues here that are not at all related. Linking it to your own case is unfair because it relates to a very unusual flight situation. I and other pilots have explained to you how you could have avoided it and it is more than unfair to blame Elektra now for it. Thank you for understanding this!

When I read your post versus Elktrica, I can clearly understand the confusion, what you added is accurate about the emergency cutoff (only works in certain conditions),  Elkrica did not state this very very important information so what he/she said was not wrong but really only half the story, I think this is what Mirek was trying to say (actually to me he said it very well).  I think the point here is that a rep of dji should know this information and should of added the very important point because without adding it, there is just confusion, which you certainly cleared up but should not have had to clear up, if I only read Elktrica's post and ran out and started flying, I would only know half the true on this topic.

heliman Posted at 2017-12-27 06:45
The spark sometimes refuses to move if obstacle avoidance sees something irrelevant, so it won’t get out of the way easily.
Lowering the spark may make the child run into it instead of the mother.
A zero-delay throttle cut could let it drop in time.

All of those are easily solvable, first one turn drone around DONT LAND IT ON ANYONE.

second one if spark is flying on its own YOU HAVE NO CONTROL.

Third one if you can’t move left or right how are you going to preform CSC or RTH plus left stick down surely right stick up or down left or right would be quicker.

I’m sure throttle cut can be implemented in a way that won’t bother people who don’t want it.

Rbstansbury Posted at 2017-12-27 07:21
When I read your post versus Elktrica, I can clearly understand the confusion, what you added is accurate about the emergency cutoff (only works in certain conditions),  Elkrica did not state this very very important information so what he/she said was not wrong but really only half the story, I think this is what Mirek was trying to say (actually to me he said it very well).  I think the point here is that a rep of dji should know this information and should of added the very important point because without adding it, there is just confusion, which you certainly cleared up but should not have had to clear up, if I only read Elktrica's post and ran out and started flying, I would only know half the true on this topic.

Thank you Rbstansbury. This was exactly my intention. I think that Wachtberegr and I cleared this misunderstanding.

Reading additional posts by various forum members I understand and agree that emergency shut down procedure is useful. However, if DJI implements it, I would ask this implementation to meet two key requirements:
1. It must use joystick and button combination which cannot be invoked accidentally during normal operation. (Something like Microsoft did several decades ago with their Ctrl-Alt-Del combination in DOS for reboot. Nobody could invoke it by accident - it must be deliberate and conscious). Current emergency shutdown joystick combination can be used by mistake if somebody simply wants to put their drone in downward helix spiral.
2. It should be instantaneous - no 1.5 sec delay. Emergency is emergency.     

Having said that, I also agree that if current firmware implementation allows to invoke joystick emergency combination in critical error situations only (Spark totally out of control due to catastrophic failure - e.g. propeller off), this is actually not bad. If Spark behaves in a totally unpredictable fashion, pulling joysticks down and in would not be intended to put it in downward helix for fun but to consciously drop it from the sky.

So perhaps my emergency requirements would be to keep the current behaviour (if it really works that way - DJI staff did not confirm nor denied our speculations yet) and, in addition, implement two points suggested above.

BTW - the DJI silence (yes - they did respond but the response was inaccurate) in this important safety requirement is exactly what my post above tried to address. DJI - Please do not ignore us - we are here to help, understand, enjoy your product and support you. But we fully, and I mean fully, expect your co-operation.

Mirek

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-27 07:39
All of those are easily solvable, first one turn drone around DONT LAND IT ON ANYONE.

second one if spark is flying on its own YOU HAVE NO CONTROL.

hallmark I am new to this forum so I will try to be respectful but it seems like every thread I read includes you preaching at people, in many cases where you obviously have no experience or knowledge about what your are preaching like in this case.

I have been flying RC helis of all sizes for many years and throttle cut is a standard and mandatory feature to not only reduce damage in the event of a crash (or after the crash) but also I have personally seen it protect spectators many times over the years when a heli starts to behave badly or the pilot simply loses orientation and flies toward people or objects accidentally.

Many times malfunctions can occur that create directional or positioning problems that might still leave commands like throttle cut intact and in these situations when all else fails and I know i am gong to crash or hit something it is second nature to hit the throttle cut switch so at least when I hit the ground or something else I don;t have the added damage to the heli or other object or person cause by high speed rotors running at full tilt.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that a way to cut the throttle quickly should be available and it should NOT include stick movements of any kind period since this could make things even worse if the impending crash is pilot error in sport mode.

To just say DON'T land on someone is simply ignorant. OK so much for respectful.

Cameron Dasso Posted at 2017-12-27 20:25
hallmark I am new to this forum so I will try to be respectful but it seems like every thread I read includes you preaching at people, in many cases where you obviously have no experience or knowledge about what your are preaching like in this case.

I have been flying RC helis of all sizes for many years and throttle cut is a standard and mandatory feature to not only reduce damage in the event of a crash (or after the crash) but also I have personally seen it protect spectators many times over the years when a heli starts to behave badly or the pilot simply loses orientation and flies toward people or objects accidentally.

First you need to explain how cutting motors is better than present situation, it’s not just good enough to say because you flew RC helis that you are looking at the same situation.

You must also take into account the safety records of these drones under present situation and adding something new to the spark is it going to make it more hazardous or safer. This is a mass produced product being used  in the main by new users.

What you are asking for is a cut off button to drop an aircraft out of the sky when it has the capabilities to remain in the sky keeping those on the ground safe, remember they are held in the air by gps barometric pressure and in the air they cannot hurt people which is first priority.

Before telling us we need cut off throttle, you must first explain taking into account the need for one in an aircraft that has many more safety features than a RC helicopter, you must remember they only way an spark will fall out of the sky is if it looses power so no need to for cut off if it has a critical problem there is cut off , so if it looses a prop a motor it’s already there.

I will await your answer, but so far the only answers for adding something that could be more dangerous than what is already there , have only shown to be more dangerous than present system.
And btw I’ve had this debate with the same person for awhile now he also comes from the same background of flying helicopters which have different systems than drones .

I believe drones are much safer and have as much if not a lot more safety features, most of them have cut off throttle those that don’t use cut off in critical error. Is a button on your RC or app going to make it safer? And how?

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-28 00:51
First you need to explain how cutting motors is better than present situation, it’s not just good enough to say because you flew RC helis that you are looking at the same situation.

You must also take into account the safety records of these drones under present situation and adding something new to the spark is it going to make it more hazardous or safer. This is a mass produced product being used  in the main by new users.

I have read enough threads to know that you just argue with everyone and provide nothing of value.

I already explained all of this in my previous post and if you think that these things can't get out of control then just keep flying and you will find out.

Having the ability to stop the rotors on a machine that you know is going to crash or hit something for WHATEVER reason is a good thing to have.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Bye

Cameron Dasso Posted at 2017-12-28 07:51
I have read enough threads to know that you just argue with everyone and provide nothing of value.

I already explained all of this in my previous post and if you think that these things can't get out of control then just keep flying and you will find out.

Again you seem to have no problem being rude yourself.

I have explained how you can cut controls when Aircraft is in critical error, why would we need another button to do the same thing.
You set yourself up as some kind of expert on this matter but when it comes to it you have failed to come up with one instance that having another button to cut motors on a craft already well covered for this.
But you find it very easy to call others ignorant and accusing others of not helping, so I suppose we will just have to wait and see to get the full experience and help from a professional as yourself.

I suggest you tell what you want instead of telling other people what they want.

heliman Posted at 2017-12-28 08:37
I suggest you tell what you want instead of telling other people what they want.

I don’t need anything else , as it stands Spark is a much much safer aircraft than remote control helicopter and is equipped far better than any RC helicopter in this same price bracket.

It is actually you that is trying to get another throttle cut on spark, but have offered no reasonable explanation for one.
These type of drones are much different from RC helicopters , they are much safer than RC helicopter .
From phantom 2 where they had a much simpler throttle cut , crashes were much higher and continued loss of aircraft and damage to property , dji implemented much safer procedures and since then we have seen almost no accidental CSC and equally almost no reporting of any incidents where problems occurred because of difficulty in closing down motors.
In other words how many posts have you read here where there was a problem which could have been averted if we had other options to close down aircraft or that risk would have been less.
All dji drones have midair CSC options on bigger aircraft you have a choice of what you choose, with the edition of spark and Mavic midair CSC can only be conducted when Aircraft is in critical error, and this makes a lot of sense as Aircraft can do a lot of damage being out of control dropping from the sky.

you should be able to kill the motors