Hi everybody, this is a topic I've had some difficulty getting a straight answer, hopefully you can help.

We've had some thick ground level Fog where I live and I flew up above it for some great shots. But, what's the rule on Fog? Is it the same as clouds? Because the rule for clouds is "500 feet below, 2000 ft horizontally from clouds", and as we know it's not possible to fly 500 feet below Fog.

400' ceiling and Visual line of sight aside (as I understand these rules), is Fog treated the same as clouds, thousands of feet up?

And if it is, this would break FAA Regulations, but what does that mean? What exactly are the penalties for breaking such a regulation, as I assume it's not the same as Law. This is for the United States, by the way.

Thanks

VLOS rule is the same no matter what.  If you can't see it for the fog, then it's breaking the rule.

I am having trouble understanding your post.  What rule is "500 feet below, 2000 ft horizontally from clouds"?  Do you have a link?  It's hard for me to believe this phrase has anything to do with a UAS flight.

Also, how can you discuss rules concerning fog but at the same time put "aside" the VLOS rule?  As far as I know, we can fly up to a low lifting fog, provided we have VLOS.  But you want to put VLOS aside, so I don't know what to say.  

If you want to put BVLOS aside, you can fly into and beyond the fog, but you'd still be endangering NAS.  

Also, you didn't qualify your flight?  Is this 101 or 107?  

Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-1-8 08:21
I am having trouble understanding your post.  What rule is "500 feet below, 2000 ft horizontally from clouds"?  Do you have a link?  It's hard for me to believe this phrase has anything to do with a UAS flight.

Also, how can you discuss rules concerning fog but at the same time put "aside" the VLOS rule?  As far as I know, we can fly up to a low lifting fog, provided we have VLOS.  But you want to put VLOS aside, so I don't know what to say.  

Hi Mark, I meant that I stayed under 400' and my drone was still within my line of sight since it was a light fog, I meant to say I understood those parts of the rule.

Maybe this is an old page, I just found it via Googling a bit on the cloud rule.

https://3dr.com/faa/study-guides/regulations-cheatsheet/

So if the 400' ceiling and VLOS are all that matter, I think I'm good.  Thanks for the feedback!

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-8 08:25
Hi Mark, I meant that I stayed under 400' and my drone was still within my line of sight since it was a light fog, I meant to say I understood those parts of the rule.

Maybe this is an old page, I just found it via Googling a bit on the cloud rule.

It's a Part 107 thing

FatherXmas Posted at 2018-1-8 09:15
It's a Part 107 thing

Are you saying this only applies to a job requiring the 107 certification?  And that hobbyists can ignore it?

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-8 10:35
Are you saying this only applies to a job requiring the 107 certification?  And that hobbyists can ignore it?

Hobbyist follow Part 101 rules, that particular rule is in Part 107. However, common sense would say it's a good idea either way.

In your initial post you stated cloud clearance rules, why do they exist...to ensure the pilot has enough visibility to operate without the danger of hitting something...because he needs to see to avoid hitting those somethings.
Therefore, it only stands to reason that if you do not have the visibility to operate then you don't have the conditions to fly, in this case enough viz to achieve see and avoid and for others to see you too.
Next you stated that you were operating in light fog.  My guess is you were operating in ground fog which has an insidious nature to it.  Many times, you can see straight up and straight down but your slant range viz is limited to restricted.  In either case, it is not advisable to operate in "fog" if you do so it is assumed risk.  While it is highly unlikely that an aircraft will be flying under IFR rules at 400 feet AGL (military routes aside) unless they are taking off and landing and in that case you would be too close to the airfield or heliport which means breaking another rule.
As a hobbyist you get some latitude in operating at and below 400 feet and following the other restrictions listed, however, you can still be fined for violating those rules if caught.  As a Part 107 operator you have additional and more stringent and specific rules to follow and any violation can result in fines and the loss of your Part 107 certificate.  All violations are federal and would be litigated through the federal court system.  
Bottom line, if you start splitting hairs about the rules you leave yourself open to getting split yourself.  
Fly Safe

OK this might clear it up, mind the pun.

Last year I shot this, I'm standing on the mountain, the fog is below me.  So line of visibility is not an issue, and 400' AGL is not an issue.  I'm physically standing above the fog.

I've heard the knee jerk reactions about FAA this and Clouds that, but it's been VERY difficult to get a straight up ruling in this situation.  

As a hobbyist, am I breaking any rules by flying in this video?

Fog is cloud, its just a low lying cloud is all

If you can still see your AC at all times VLOS then you are not breaking the rules as far as i know

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-8 11:50
OK this might clear it up, mind the pun.

Last year I shot this, I'm standing on the mountain, the fog is below me.  So line of visibility is not an issue, and 400' AGL is not an issue.  I'm physically standing above the fog.

Not sure of USA rules, but being sensible, if an aeroplane or helicopter was to pop up out of that fog, would you be able to give way to it in time?  If the answer is no then you are flying too close to the fog.  Otherwise just follow the normal rules and stay within sight and within 400ft of the nearest ground.   It might seem unlikely that a helicopter would pop up out of the fog that close to the hill, but coming up from underneath they might have reasonable visibility, from above you are looking at bright reflected sunlight and can't see down.

Nigel_ Posted at 2018-1-9 01:47
Not sure of USA rules, but being sensible, if an aeroplane or helicopter was to pop up out of that fog, would you be able to give way to it in time?  If the answer is no then you are flying too close to the fog.  Otherwise just follow the normal rules and stay within sight and within 400ft of the nearest ground.   It might seem unlikely that a helicopter would pop up out of the fog that close to the hill, but coming up from underneath they might have reasonable visibility, from above you are looking at bright reflected sunlight and can't see down.

That's a great point, and I agree that's a major reason why we should stay away from clouds in the sky.

In this situation, the airplane or helicopter would have been flying through the fog at 150' above ground, which, although possible I guess, would be very unlikely.  The fog in this video is very low and thick.

In this video were you flying how high?

allyssongemelli Posted at 2018-1-9 07:32
In this video were you flying how high?

This fog was really low, and I'm standing up on the mountain.  This was a year ago but I assume I averaged 300'

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-8 11:50
OK this might clear it up, mind the pun.

Last year I shot this, I'm standing on the mountain, the fog is below me.  So line of visibility is not an issue, and 400' AGL is not an issue.  I'm physically standing above the fog.

NO
You took off in a clear area and remained in a clear area and stayed within your 400 foot AGL restriction and maintained LOS
This is no different if you took off with a cloud bank off in the distance or a lower ceiling near by but does not impact your immediate flight area.  Operating as a hobbyist you have no specific cloud clearance rules, it is all about visibility and remaining in clear air.

Nigel_ Posted at 2018-1-9 01:47
Not sure of USA rules, but being sensible, if an aeroplane or helicopter was to pop up out of that fog, would you be able to give way to it in time?  If the answer is no then you are flying too close to the fog.  Otherwise just follow the normal rules and stay within sight and within 400ft of the nearest ground.   It might seem unlikely that a helicopter would pop up out of the fog that close to the hill, but coming up from underneath they might have reasonable visibility, from above you are looking at bright reflected sunlight and can't see down.

This is a good point, but I'd have to say with only about 400 feet or possibly a little more you'd hear him in time and it is not likely they'd be flying IFR near terrain like that at that low of an altitude.

Would you drive your car 100 mph in fog?  NO  So if you can’t see your Drone don’t fly it..

guardcim23 Posted at 2018-1-9 09:49
Would you drive your car 100 mph in fog?  NO  So if you can’t see your Drone don’t fly it..

I wouldn't fly my drone 100MPH in the fog either  

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-9 09:55
I wouldn't fly my drone 100MPH in the fog either

If you can fly your uav that fast you need to do drone racing, not to mention sharing with us how you can get your bird to fly 100mph...!...

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-9 09:55
I wouldn't fly my drone 100MPH in the fog either

To fly in fog take the new test.   ID 10 T. Fog test

guardcim23 Posted at 2018-1-9 10:11
To fly in fog take the new test.   ID 10 T. Fog test

How'd you do?

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-9 10:39
How'd you do?

Better that someone that wants to fly in the fog

To put a simple answer to the question if you can't see your drone then your breaking the rules plain and simple.

Unless Part 107, keep VLOS at all times. If you can't achieve that during your present conditions, then don't fly. Your video flying above the inversion is not breaking any rules. VLOS, less than 400' AGL. Good to go. Nice video, btw.

Nigel_ Posted at 2018-1-9 01:47
Not sure of USA rules, but being sensible, if an aeroplane or helicopter was to pop up out of that fog, would you be able to give way to it in time?  If the answer is no then you are flying too close to the fog.  Otherwise just follow the normal rules and stay within sight and within 400ft of the nearest ground.   It might seem unlikely that a helicopter would pop up out of the fog that close to the hill, but coming up from underneath they might have reasonable visibility, from above you are looking at bright reflected sunlight and can't see down.

LOL Any plane of chopper popping out of that fog.  Sure planes and choppers just fly from the mountains below up through the fog into the nice sunshine right next to his drone and smash into the mountains right there.

Hellsgate Posted at 2018-1-10 01:22
To put a simple answer to the question if you can't see your drone then your breaking the rules plain and simple.

Except he could see his drone

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-9 08:17
This fog was really low, and I'm standing up on the mountain.  This was a year ago but I assume I averaged 300'

He might have meant the max altitude of where your drone was not the max height from home point.  
What is the elevation of the mountains there where you were flying from?

justin_mcvideo Posted at 2018-1-8 08:25
Hi Mark, I meant that I stayed under 400' and my drone was still within my line of sight since it was a light fog, I meant to say I understood those parts of the rule.

Maybe this is an old page, I just found it via Googling a bit on the cloud rule.

The 400ft rule for hobbyists is a guideline and is not a law.

You can legally fly above 400 feet.

blackcrusader Posted at 2018-1-10 17:10
The 400ft rule for hobbyists is a guideline and is not a law.

You can legally fly above 400 feet.

What they'll get you for is the "endanger the safety of the NAS" law.  

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf

blackcrusader Posted at 2018-1-10 17:10
The 400ft rule for hobbyists is a guideline and is not a law.

You can legally fly above 400 feet.

All I can think about is the movie Pirates of The Caribbean and Mr. Gibbs looking at Captain Jack Sparrow stating, "It's not really a code, it's more like guidelines..."

There was a recent case in NYC where a guy flying a P4P hit a military helo over the harbor, and they were able to ID the guy because a motor off the P4 got sucked into the cooling intake and it had the serial # of the drone. NTSB called DJI and they gave the guy up. He was flying above 400' at times, but not during the incident. He was 2.3 miles away and did not have VLOS of course. I''ll be interested to see if they make an example of this guy. I can't find the link to the article, but is was in sUAS News a couple of weeks ago.

BearDrone Posted at 2018-1-10 19:37
All I can think about is the movie Pirates of The Caribbean and Mr. Gibbs looking at Captain Jack Sparrow stating, "It's not really a code, it's more like guidelines..."

There was a recent case in NYC where a guy flying a P4P hit a military helo over the harbor, and they were able to ID the guy because a motor off the P4 got sucked into the cooling intake and it had the serial # of the drone. NTSB called DJI and they gave the guy up. He was flying above 400' at times, but not during the incident. He was 2.3 miles away and did not have VLOS of course. I''ll be interested to see if they make an example of this guy. I can't find the link to the article, but is was in sUAS News a couple of weeks ago.

He was found to be flying in an area he should not have been flying in.

"The collision near Hoffman Island occurred at 247 feet in the air."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/n ... licopter/952310001/

Not relevant to flying close to a mountain

Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-1-10 17:28
What they'll get you for is the "endanger the safety of the NAS" law.  

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf

They have to prove endangerment. Try showing me where the OP's flight above the fog endangered anybody?
In many cases peoples own drone video's and photos have proved to be the reason they were not charged or were acquitted of charges.

The problem with 336 (b) is it encompasses such a broad area.  What FAA could do, I think, is declare that the flight violated FAA rules by willfully flying above 400' AGL, and in doing so, the flight "endangered the safety of the NAS."  The FAA's position would be that knowingly violating their rule is what endangered NAS.  The pilot can hire an attorney and argue his case.  In the end, you're right - he may very well win the case.  Still, as written in the law, the FAA has unlimited authority to pursue enforcement action, and they have unlimited resources.  They are not somebody I would want to deliberately mess with.  

blackcrusader Posted at 2018-1-10 16:57
LOL Any plane of chopper popping out of that fog.  Sure planes and choppers just fly from the mountains below up through the fog into the nice sunshine right next to his drone and smash into the mountains right there.

Most plane and chopper flights start off at 0ft altitude and go upwards, if it is a cloudy day then it is quite normal for them to fly through the clouds and out the top into the sunshine.   

I've seen helicopters take off in the mountains, rescue helicopters and military helicopters.  I was walking passed someone's house a few months ago on a hillside as steep as the one in the OP and a helicopter took off from their front lawn, in that case I heard the rotors spin up but otherwise there was no warning.  I've had a military helicopter appear 50m overhead having heard it only 5 seconds before, a stealth helicopter with the sound being blocked by trees.

Just because you are flying in an aeroplane free area doesn't mean that everybody else can ignore the risks, most of us need to be able to see clearly enough to be able to avoid collisions with other aircraft.  Fog is very good at absorbing sound and inversion layers are good at reflecting sound, no guarantee you are going to hear it in time.

blackcrusader Posted at 2018-1-10 20:05
He was found to be flying in an area he should not have been flying in.

"The collision near Hoffman Island occurred at 247 feet in the air."

It's relevant in losing VLOS, which is what the OP is asking about due to fog.

In reference to the Hoffman Island collision, he was in a temporary restricted area due to the UN meeting in NYC, but was unaware due to no having updated no fly data via the app. It's an interesting case, and the first of a documented RC hitting a piloted air craft.

The recent one in Canada with a small fixed wing plane is suspect at best. This one, do doubt.

You bet it will be relevant if the NTSB and FAA want to make an example of this guy for other UAV rec pilots out there. I think congress is hot to make some changes and restrictions that the FAA wants. Won't be long.

  

Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-1-11 03:30
The problem with 336 (b) is it encompasses such a broad area.  What FAA could do, I think, is declare that the flight violated FAA rules by willfully flying above 400' AGL, and in doing so, the flight "endangered the safety of the NAS."  The FAA's position would be that knowingly violating their rule is what endangered NAS.  The pilot can hire an attorney and argue his case.  In the end, you're right - he may very well win the case.  Still, as written in the law, the FAA has unlimited authority to pursue enforcement action, and they have unlimited resources.  They are not somebody I would want to deliberately mess with.

Where in his video can you show he was more than 400ft AGL?  You cannot.

Nigel_ Posted at 2018-1-11 06:14
Most plane and chopper flights start off at 0ft altitude and go upwards, if it is a cloudy day then it is quite normal for them to fly through the clouds and out the top into the sunshine.   

I've seen helicopters take off in the mountains, rescue helicopters and military helicopters.  I was walking passed someone's house a few months ago on a hillside as steep as the one in the OP and a helicopter took off from their front lawn, in that case I heard the rotors spin up but otherwise there was no warning. I've had a military helicopter appear 50m overhead having heard it only 5 seconds before, a stealth helicopter with the sound being blocked by trees.

I've had a chopper take off from right in front of my office no more than 20m away.  The pilots fly up into known air space and would not be where the drone pilot was flying so close to the steep sides of the mountains in thick fog.  You can see this area a bit more clearly in the last video my canary yellow building at end of the track and field.

It's not like I do not know about rescue choppers flying in the mountains as I have flown in them. They land 50m in front of my office window