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400ft rule
5985 38 2018-1-8
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Kannon Kalton
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Is the stay under 400ft thing a law or a rule? I have heard you cannot go above 400ft and that it is illegal but I have also heard it is just a suggestion, and if so how high can I go? Thanks
2018-1-8
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HWCM
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It is a rule. Also it is 400 ft above the highest near structure. So if you are near a radio tower, it would be 400 feet above that point.
2018-1-9
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Beeworld
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In Australia the law is to stay below 400' AGL (above ground level), sometimes lower if in an approach path or similar - I always check the local flight restrictions prior to flight.
2018-1-9
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Malakai_UK
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in the UK we have an exception that will allow flight up to 1000ft as long as you have a competent spotter. Might be worth having a look to see if there's anything similar in your country.
2018-1-9
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Lucas775
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In US it is an FAA rule.
2018-1-9
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DroneFlying
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First it's important to clarify that you're apparently talking about the United States, because laws and regulations vary by country. Second, when you ask if it's a "rule" I'm guessing you're really wanting to know if it's a law or regulation (i.e., something that can be legally enforced) applicable to recreational flight. In that context, the claims that it's a "rule" are incorrect: the FAA has explicitly stated that staying below 400 feet is "recommended and not a requirement".

Having said that, you're expected to avoid causing problems in the air so if, for example, you interfere or collide with a manned aircraft, the FAA could accuse you of careless or reckless operation and might use the fact that you ignored their 400' recommendation as evidence of that. But under current U.S. laws and regulations you aren't going to get into any legal trouble just for flying over 400 feet.
2018-1-9
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A CW
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In the UK, using a UAV to place manned aircraft at risk can carry a custodial sentence of up to 5 years imprisonment - that makes it law! The UKCAA makes this very clear so you need to be well away from designated areas where manned aircraft takeoff/land (not just airports) and under 400’ AGL. You can apply for a permission from the aviation authority to increase the flight altitude but this will generally only be granted for commercial flight operations whereby the pilot is PfCO qualified and accompanied by a spotter. Every country has their own laws and the laws vary depending on the weight of the drone, purpose of the flight and even having a camera on it. Some restrictions are guidelines and therefore ‘rules’ for best practice but not flying in manned airspace without permission!
2018-1-9
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A CW
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Another way to look at it is this: the RULE is to keep the drone <400 AGL to help prevent you from breaking the LAW in not using your drone to place manned aircraft at risk.
2018-1-9
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luciens
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DroneFlying Posted at 2018-1-9 03:14
First it's important to clarify that you're apparently talking about the United States, because laws and regulations vary by country. Second, when you ask if it's a "rule" I'm guessing you're really wanting to know if it's a law or regulation (i.e., something that can be legally enforced) applicable to recreational flight. In that context, the claims that it's a "rule" are incorrect: the FAA has explicitly stated that staying below 400 feet is "recommended and not a requirement".

Having said that, you're expected to avoid causing problems in the air so if, for example, you interfere or collide with a manned aircraft, the FAA could accuse you of careless or reckless operation and might use the fact that you ignored their 400' recommendation as evidence of that. But under current U.S. laws and regulations you aren't going to get into any legal trouble just for flying over 400 feet.

No, the 400 foot rule is now a rule in the US. Specifically, It's now an official operating limitation, specified in FAR part 107. The link you're citing here is an earlier interpretation of the situation for "model aircraft" that prevailed before FAA promulgated part 107 (which, among other things, took UAS's out of the "model aircraft" category).

So in the US, you can get in trouble solely for busting 400' AGL, unfortunately.....
2018-1-9
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DroneFlying
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luciens Posted at 2018-1-9 03:51
No, the 400 foot rule is now a rule in the US. Specifically, It's now an official operating limitation, specified in FAR part 107. The link you're citing here is an earlier interpretation of the situation for "model aircraft" that prevailed before FAA promulgated part 107 (which, among other things, took UAS's out of the "model aircraft" category).

So in the US, you can get in trouble solely for busting 400' AGL, unfortunately.....

Part 107 doesn't apply to recreational flight, which I specifically qualified my answer to refer to, as that's almost certainly what the OP was asking about.
2018-1-9
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Griffith
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DroneFlying is correct, Part 107 rules apply to those flying under Part 107 for commercial purposes,  The recreational "recommendations" are essentially the same as the Part 107 "rules" and would be "recreational rules" if the FAA were allowed to regulate recreational flyers.  The 400 ft ceiling is in effect for flight safety purposes regardless of whether it's a rule or recommendation.   Waivers ARE available to Part 107 flyers - maybe to recreational flyers too - don't know.  But remember that 400 ft is AGL (or above nearby structures) - so flying in hilly terrain requires a bit more preparation and attention.
2018-1-9
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jcgoobee
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400 feet is the maximum height that you should fly under, since you're a recreational pilot. However, if you possess FAA Part 107 license, you're no longer a "recreational" pilot, so logically, the 400 feet rule does not apply to you. Yet, for safety consideration, flying below 400 is recommended at all times.
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DroneFlying
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jcgoobee Posted at 2018-1-9 06:50
400 feet is the maximum height that you should fly under, since you're a recreational pilot. However, if you possess FAA Part 107 license, you're no longer a "recreational" pilot, so logically, the 400 feet rule does not apply to you. Yet, for safety consideration, flying below 400 is recommended at all times.

No, it's essentially the opposite of that: recreational flights are technically allowed to go above 400 feet while non-recreational flights are not unless -- as Griffith mentioned -- an applicable waiver has been granted.

I think this is a big part of the problem: people who don't know better assume -- and sometimes even insist -- that the more restrictive guidelines apply to recreational pilots. As counter-intuitive as it may be, though, recreational pilots actually have more flexibility than their 107 counterparts in certain areas, such as maximum AGL height, flying at night, and operation from a moving vehicle.
2018-1-9
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M.C. Pilot
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Looks like FAA is now calling it a 'TIP' ? but under PT107, a rule...      As far as I'm concern, I don't ever fly at or over 400 ft...period. (safety purposes).


https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/
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M.C. Pilot
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Waivers are available only for certified Part 107 holders.
2018-1-9
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jcgoobee
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DroneFlying Posted at 2018-1-9 07:04
No, it's essentially the opposite of that: recreational flights are technically allowed to go above 400 feet while non-recreational flights are not unless -- as Griffith mentioned -- an applicable waiver has been granted.

I think this is a big part of the problem: people who don't know better assume -- and sometimes even insist -- that the more restrictive guidelines apply to recreational pilots. As counter-intuitive as it may be, though, recreational pilots actually have more flexibility than their 107 counterparts in certain areas, such as maximum AGL height, flying at night, and operation from a moving vehicle.

Thanks for the clarification and I apologize for my error. I will keep that in mind in the future.

When referring back to the FAA site, under Part 107 Operating Rules, should we interpret that Part 107 pilots should always fly under 400 feet whereas non-Part 107 pilots can fly as high as they want?

Part 107 Operating Rules
•Unmanned aircraft must weigh less than 55 pounds, including payload, at takeoff
•Fly in Class G airspace*
•Keep the unmanned aircraft within visual line-of-sight*
•Fly at or below 400 feet*
•Fly during daylight or civil twilight*
•Fly at or under 100 mph*
•Yield right of way to manned aircraft*
•Do not fly directly over people*
•Do not fly from a moving vehicle, unless in a sparsely populated area*
2018-1-9
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jcgoobee
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M.C. Pilot Posted at 2018-1-9 08:20
Looks like FAA is now calling it a 'TIP' ? but under PT107, a rule...      As far I'm concern, I don't ever fly at or over 400 ft period. (safety purposes).

I don't fly above 400 feet either. I used to, but when for safety concerns like you, I always fly around 300 feet which I'm able to main line of sight at all time. I'm a bit paranoid of not having visual with my drone to begin with. After all, it's a $1K toy that I'm playing with.
2018-1-9
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DroneFlying
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jcgoobee Posted at 2018-1-9 08:48
Thanks for the clarification and I apologize for my error. I will keep that in mind in the future.

When referring back to the FAA site, under Part 107 Operating Rules, should we interpret that Part 107 pilots should always fly under 400 feet whereas non-Part 107 pilots can fly as high as they want?

Thanks for the clarification and I apologize for my error. I will keep that in mind in the future.

No problem. The laws and regulations are somewhat complex and, again, counter-intuitive, which unfortunately causes incorrect information to be repeated and (often) believed.

When referring back to the FAA site, under Part 107 Operating Rules, should we interpret that Part 107 pilots should always fly under 400 feet whereas non-Part 107 pilots can fly as high as they want?

Technically, yes, recreational flights can exceed 400 feet, though I wouldn't word it quite the way you did ("as high as they want"). If nothing else you're always required to maintain visual line of sight, which in the case of, say, a Mavic, would likely become a factor long before it reached its operational ceiling and probably even before the 500-meter AGL height that it can be flown without hacking.

P.S. Note also that I'm not encouraging anyone to fly above 400', but simply clarifying what I understand the actual laws and regulations to be. Personally when flying I'm almost always more interested in what's on the ground and prefer to be as close to it as possible.
2018-1-9
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jcgoobee
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DroneFlying Posted at 2018-1-9 09:40
Thanks for the clarification and I apologize for my error. I will keep that in mind in the future.

No problem. The laws and regulations are somewhat complex and, again, counter-intuitive, which unfortunately causes incorrect information to be repeated and (often) believed.

Hi DroneFlying,

Thanks for taking the time to explain more in details. I have a scenario and would be interested what your thoughts are.

Let's say, that I want to fly way above 400 feet (say, 1000 feet AGL) but my drone is at least 1/2 mile away from the pier, so I can take a nice sphere picture from above. Location is in Class E airspace. So, in this case, am I still flying responsibly? Given the situation that I am far away from the crowd and ground traffic, yet, I'm hovering way above the 400 feet recommended ceiling. Am I breaking the law in anyway?

The reason I asked, was I did fly around 1200 feet months back in a remote mountain, yet, people were throwing stones at me and said I have broken the law and didn't practice safe navigation.

I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing and know my limit, legally especially.

Thanks!!
2018-1-9
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DroneFlying
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jcgoobee Posted at 2018-1-9 09:56
Hi DroneFlying,

Thanks for taking the time to explain more in details. I have a scenario and would be interested what your thoughts are.

in this case, am I still flying responsibly?

Flying "responsibly" is subjective so I'm hesitant to answer without knowing more about the circumstances, and even if I did answer it would still only one anonymous person's opinion. If you were out in the middle of the Pacific ocean then I'd probably say you were (flying responsibly), but if this was near a densely populated area with lots of air traffic then probably not.

Am I breaking the law in anyway?

That's a different question and again, one that's not easily answered, but I'd guess probably not, and being over 400' doesn't automatically make it a violation of any law or regulation in the United States. There is, of course, the 5-mile notification requirement for recreational flight; if you didn't provide the appropriate notification(s) and satisfy all the other conditions for recreational flight then you were effectively required to operate under Part 107 and yes, would have been violating FAA regulations.

The reason I asked . . . people were throwing stones at me and said I have broken the law and didn't practice safe navigation.

This was on the internet, right? Yeah, virtue signaling (demonstrating one's "goodness" by condemning others' behavior or beliefs) is popular these days, especially on the internet and especially where flying drones is concerned. Post a video of anything other than flying two feet above a vacant lot and somebody's sure to come along and tell you that you did something wrong, even if it's only in the context of their personal preferences that are inevitably more restrictive than what the actual laws and regulations demand.

I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing and know my limit, legally especially.

Well, then frankly you shouldn't be taking advice from me or any other anonymous person on the internet. If you have questions or concerns and really want to be sure then you should contact the FAA directly and get answers from the only source that really matters in the U.S.
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FatherXmas
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DroneFlying Posted at 2018-1-9 09:40
Thanks for the clarification and I apologize for my error. I will keep that in mind in the future.

No problem. The laws and regulations are somewhat complex and, again, counter-intuitive, which unfortunately causes incorrect information to be repeated and (often) believed.

As I understand it, a Part 107 pilot can fly under either part 101 or part 107, they have to pick which at the beginning of the flight and cannot switch once you take off.
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jcgoobee
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DroneFlying Posted at 2018-1-9 10:13
in this case, am I still flying responsibly?

Flying "responsibly" is subjective so I'm hesitant to answer without knowing more about the circumstances, and even if I did answer it would still only one anonymous person's opinion. If you were out in the middle of the Pacific ocean then I'd probably say you were (flying responsibly), but if this was near a densely populated area with lots of air traffic then probably not.

Thank you again, for taking the time to reply back. This helps a lot. Cheers!
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luciens
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DroneFlying Posted at 2018-1-9 03:58
Part 107 doesn't apply to recreational flight, which I specifically qualified my answer to refer to, as that's almost certainly what the OP was asking about.

Ah, yes of course quite true.
By the way, the rationale for more limitations on commercial ops than non-commercial is quite sound. FAA has long held the position that flying for profit brings with it the temptation to take more risks - when there's income at stake, a pilot is more likely to push limits of various kinds than when there's not and that poses additional safety hazards.

So on the surface the additional rules and limitations on commercial flight might look silly, but they're actually grounded in good reasoning, IMO. They tighten the screws where the screwdriver is more likely to appear... Strange but true.

The 400' AGL limitation would be a good example - if you're getting paid to take video from a high altitude over an area where there may be hazards like manned aircraft traffic, etc., you're more likely to forgo the risk of doing that if a paycheck is involved. So FAA puts a hard limit on it for commercial ops.....
2018-1-10
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Griffith
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Keep in mind that the minimum altitude for manned aircraft in (uncontrolled) non-congested areas is 500 ft. AGL (or tallest structure) -  except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In that case, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure ... so essentially down to the surface.  
Stick to 400 ft and be safe, but also keep an eye out for other aircraft.  Manned aircraft have the right-of-way ... regardless of altitude  :-)



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Griffith
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FatherXmas Posted at 2018-1-9 10:32
As I understand it, a Part 107 pilot can fly under either part 101 or part 107, they have to pick which at the beginning of the flight and cannot switch once you take off.

Partially true,  A Part 107 certified pilot can choose to fly recreationally IF no commercial gain is expected or none is realized (this might include YouTube videos).  And,  yes, it would be important for Part 107 pilots to log their intent before flying.
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FatherXmas
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Griffith Posted at 2018-1-10 07:25
Partially true,  A Part 107 certified pilot can choose to fly recreationally, IF no commercial gain is expected or none is realized (this might include YouTube videos).  And,  yes, it would be important for Part 107 pilots to log their intent before flying.

Easy enough to do. I have an Airdata paid account and there's a place to add comments. I would recommend to everyone. There's a free version you can sign up for, keeps track of all the flight details for you plus has a maintenance log.
2018-1-10
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Brian88
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As stated above 400ft is the legal limit above the highest structure. But, That isn't always true. For example, you want to fly 400ft above a 400ft building = 800ft. But, that building is within a Class E airspace transition area. that means Class G ends at 699ft and class E starts at 700ft. So you can only fly legally a total of 699ft or 299ft above the tallest building without authorization. If you have your part 107 certificate you could apply for a waiver to fly above 400ft, If you have a reason to do so and it can be proven all the proper safety measures have been accounted for.
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DroneFlying
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Brian88 Posted at 2018-1-10 15:24
As stated above 400ft is the legal limit above the highest structure. But, That isn't always true. For example, you want to fly 400ft above a 400ft building = 800ft. But, that building is within a Class E airspace transition area. that means Class G ends at 699ft and class E starts at 700ft. So you can only fly legally a total of 699ft or 299ft above the tallest building without authorization. If you have your part 107 certificate you could apply for a waiver to fly above 400ft, If you have a reason to do so and it can be proven all the proper safety measures have been accounted for.

As stated above 400ft is the legal limit above the highest structure. But . . . if you have your part 107 certificate you could apply for a waiver to fly above 400ft

Again, 400 feet in the context of 336 (recreational) flight is only a "recommendation".
2018-1-11
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A CW
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The law is that you must not use your UAV to place manned aircraft at risk in any situation. If your drone hit a chopper 100' or 1000' above the ground you have broken the law and are entirely responsible for the crash. That is why the guidelines are in place to help prevent that from happening. At 400' AGL, 5 miles from an airport and keeping the drone in VLOS you will minimise the risk of crashing into a manned aircraft as it would be far less likely that a manned aircraft will be in your flight route as above 500' well after taking off and you can see the drone and thus take evasive action if required. If you're flying a mile away at 1000' AGL then your actions will very easily be deemed to be irresponsible should you crash and end up in a court room...
2018-1-11
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DroneFlying
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A CW Posted at 2018-1-11 04:16
The law is that you must not use your UAV to place manned aircraft at risk in any situation. If your drone hit a chopper 100' or 1000' above the ground you have broken the law and are entirely responsible for the crash. That is why the guidelines are in place to help prevent that from happening. At 400' AGL, 5 miles from an airport and keeping the drone in VLOS you will minimise the risk of crashing into a manned aircraft as it would be far less likely that a manned aircraft will be in your flight route as above 500' well after taking off and you can see the drone and thus take evasive action if required. If you're flying a mile away at 1000' AGL then your actions will very easily be deemed to be irresponsible should you crash and end up in a court room...

It's possible to create a hazard to manned aircraft above or below 400 feet, but recreational pilots aren't technically limited to that level in the U.S. by any law or regulation.
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A CW
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DroneFlying Posted at 2018-1-11 04:36
It's possible to create a hazard to manned aircraft both above and below 400 feet, but recreational pilots aren't technically limited to that level in the U.S. by any law or regulation.

Thats why I said you can be 100' or 1,000' AGL - you just need to never crash into a manned aircraft. I don't think it's really about numbers, it's about utilising best practice to minimise risk and they state 400' as a safety line I guess.  
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DroneFlying
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A CW Posted at 2018-1-11 04:42
Thats why I said you can be 100' or 1,000' AGL - you just need to never crash into a manned aircraft. I don't think it's really about numbers, it's about utilising best practice to minimise risk and they state 400' as a safety line I guess.

I don't think it's really about numbers, it's about utilising best practice to minimise risk and they state 400' as a safety line I guess.

Exactly: 400 feet is generally going to be a safe (maximum) height, which is why the FAA recommends staying below that level. And waivers for 107 pilots to fly above 400' are rare; the last I knew of only a handful had been granted.
2018-1-11
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rshah921
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is there a setting you have to change to fly above 400ft? I'm in the US. My mavic reaches max altitude at 400ft and won't let me go past that.
2018-1-11
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Brian88
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rshah921 Posted at 2018-1-11 07:37
is there a setting you have to change to fly above 400ft? I'm in the US. My mavic reaches max altitude at 400ft and won't let me go past that.

There is a setting, the three dots, under the first icon, looks like a drone. Then about half way down. It's called set max flight altitude. It's in meters though. Why DJI doesn't change this when you select imperial units I don't know.
2018-1-11
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DJI Susan
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Hi Kannon, the maximum altitude depends on your local regulations. Always check this when you go to a new place.
2018-1-14
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Nick1
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So I heard now in the US that it's no longer a suggestion by FAA, but a law as of a few months ago, anyone have any information on this?
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Cmartin3977
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Just so you know you can hold a 107 and still perform recreational/ hobby flights
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Cmartin3977 Posted at 1-22 12:08
Just so you know you can hold a 107 and still perform recreational/ hobby flights

yes and no.  weird grey area intentionally vague (as most laws are to allow them to really get ya)

yea you can definitely can fly recreationally, but you can only register your drone as one or the other at any given time..which means they can see your aircraft is registered as part 107 and still get you for violating part 107's rules and limitations even if your flight wasnt a part 107 flight.

2019-1-22
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"VFR visibility requirements in class G airspace are 1 mile (1.6 km) by day, and 3 miles (5 km) by night, for altitudes below 10,000 feet (3,050 m) MSL but above 1,200 ft AGL."
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