Hello everyone, I know there’s a lot of unanswered questions about where exactly you can fly. But I just had a recent encounter with a life guard at the beach today.

I have the knowledge of the airport limits and where you can’t fly over (power plants, prisons, etc)

This life guard told me it was illegal to fly at the beach.
I was no where near an airport, I was well over the water, and it was very early in the morning where barely anyone was at the beach yet.

Just wanted some input on this from you guys.

Thanks.

As long you dont fly over crowded people and doing it safely you should be fine. https://jrupprechtlaw.com/drone-laws-florida

In Florida you can't fly at State Parks and SOME cities ban them in city parks. You'd have to look it up by city to find out which ones prohibit it. I flew at several beaches in the Fall and had no problems. I'd suggest having a NFZ app ready to go next time someone starts hasseling you.

This really only applies to US fliers...
The problem you have here is the various laws and regs that exist out there and they all don't synch up with one another.
Generally speaking, "airspace" is the sole purview of the FAA and not any private or local entities.  However, you have to land and takeoff from somewhere and here in lies your problem.  I'll use national parks as an example.  You cannot fly in a national park, however, if you takeoff from private or non-park property and recover there you can overfly the park, and don't go down in the park either or you'll be in trouble there too.  Meaning the same thing can be done elsewhere as well.  Now that all gives you a potential work around but it also presents other problems.  For starters, there are FAA rules that are enforceable regardless of your starting point and local law enforcement can be empowered by the FAA to get any appropriate details from you and your flight in question.  Further, local laws establishing rules for privacy can be a factor; I believe a minimum altitude of 80 or 90 feet is established to avoid any encroachment concerns over private property.  This could be an issue for your takeoff and return.  Lastly, you have issues of dealing with the public that do not understand any of this stuff and are just going off misperceptions about drones and what they can and cannot do.
In your example, you may have been legal to fly but where you took off and landed may have been the real problem, either way the municipality does not have jurisdiction of the airspace, that is federal jurisdiction.  
Sorry that does not clear it up a lot, but you are going to have to check with state & local laws to see what you can do and where.

Tourists should get a green light. Haha
But sadly, they will see flashing blue and red...


RedHotPoker

Genghis9 Posted at 2018-2-11 23:30
This really only applies to US fliers...
The problem you have here is the various laws and regs that exist out there and they all don't synch up with one another.
Generally speaking, "airspace" is the sole purview of the FAA and not any private or local entities.  However, you have to land and takeoff from somewhere and here in lies your problem.  I'll use national parks as an example.  You cannot fly in a national park, however, if you takeoff from private or non-park property and recover there you can overfly the park, and don't go down in the park either or you'll be in trouble there too.  Meaning the same thing can be done elsewhere as well.  Now that all gives you a potential work around but it also presents other problems.  For starters, there are FAA rules that are enforceable regardless of your starting point and local law enforcement can be empowered by the FAA to get any appropriate details from you and your flight in question.  Further, local laws establishing rules for privacy can be a factor; I believe a minimum altitude of 80 or 90 feet is established to avoid any encroachment concerns over private property.  This could be an issue for your takeoff and return.  Lastly, you have issues of dealing with the public that do not understand any of this stuff and are just going off misperceptions about drones and what they can and cannot do.

I don't live in USA - but spent a lot of time working there and had odd brushes with the Law in various States ...

I wish anyone luck trying to 'circumvent' local rules ... at end of day - very difficult to convince any person wearing a badge - whether a Lifeguard, Police, Ranger or why ... as far as they are concerned - THEY know and don't appreciate being shown they may be wrong !

My approach to it : Sorry and just say - not happen again ... thank you and leave.

You never know what will be next action if you start to argue ... or try to show a NFZ app !!

Nigel

Just find a deserted area on a beach and fly there.  Plenty of places .  And I promise you won't find a lifeguard wearing a badge on his bare chest.......OUCH!

Is it in a lifeguard's remit to enforce drone regulations, whether accurate or not?

ALABAMA Posted at 2018-2-12 06:25
Just find a deserted area on a beach and fly there.  Plenty of places .  And I promise you won't find a lifeguard wearing a badge on his bare chest.......OUCH!

Yeah I try to get there early where there still isn’t anyone at the beach. But there always that one person that wants to be a pain.

Roy. Posted at 2018-2-12 10:11
Is it in a lifeguard's remit to enforce drone regulations, whether accurate or not?

Well I believe only FAA has authority over the airspace.
But this lifeguard in particular came storming by on his ATV and jumped off only to tell me I can get a big fine for flying illegally.

Ozzman2489 Posted at 2018-2-12 10:19
Well I believe only FAA has authority over the airspace.
But this lifeguard in particular came storming by on his ATV and jumped off only to tell me I can get a big fine for flying illegally.

read up on the local laws about flying on beaches in FL, so that you are able to quote them.


If there is no text telling you is it illegal to fly your drone on a beach - then save that article.
Have PDF copies on your phone or tablet.

The next twit with a smidgen of authority starts telling you it is against the law - ask them to show you in black and white print where it is illegal.  When they can't - then you can show them it is legal to fly, and if they continue to pester you - ask for their name - so you can advise your lawyer about who is harrassing you.

That may well stop them.

(If there are no laws against flying on the beach in FL)

Ozzman2489 Posted at 2018-2-12 10:19
Well I believe only FAA has authority over the airspace.
But this lifeguard in particular came storming by on his ATV and jumped off only to tell me I can get a big fine for flying illegally.

Ask for the actual local ordinance that is being quoted... Politely ask for the lifeguard's supervisor name and number. His/her full name. Remind him/her that you have a detailed flight log with altitude/position/etc...  and you would like to forward their name to the local FAA office

Or why not try telling him to p*ss off and do his job.

Rigger / sitka ......... although you are correct in theory and what could be done ... in reality - its the quickest way to get all and sundry against you and your hobby.

Sorry but that's my view. Being 'smart' with over-efficous pompous people like that only riles them further.

The better thing to do is to just accept it at that moment .. not argue.

There's no need to ask Him / Her for Supervisors contacts - that is easy to find out without getting up his / her nose !

A nice approach to powers that be ... explaining will often get a far better result than stuffing it in their faces...

Lets be honest - we enjoy a hobby that is increasingly being portrayed in bad light by idiots ... while vast majority are sensible and do no wrong. You may not agree with me - but facing off with that Lifeguard / Park Attendant / whoever - just puts you slap bang on that list as far as they are concerned and you are doomed with them from that day on. Right or wrong - you are dead meat ...

Sorry if my opinion doesn't meet with approval. I have had my moments trying to educate idiot attendants - it just aint worth it.... its extremely frustrating, often ends up an argument, and no result.

Nigel

solentlife Posted at 2018-2-12 00:02
I don't live in USA - but spent a lot of time working there and had odd brushes with the Law in various States ...

I wish anyone luck trying to 'circumvent' local rules ... at end of day - very difficult to convince any person wearing a badge - whether a Lifeguard, Police, Ranger or why ... as far as they are concerned - THEY know and don't appreciate being shown they may be wrong !

Excellent advice!
Not always the best to do when you know you are right or think you are, but the best in such circumstances...

What beach were you flying?

I live here in Florida and have flown my P3P on many beaches here. Most likely the lifeguard has no idea what he/she is talking about. As long as you're not near an airport and not flying over crowds you should be fine... Unless it's a state park or some of the other things people have mentioned... I've packed up and just moved a quarter mile away and took off again... show me the law buddy! That's my general stance. I know the rules. Go bother someone else. lol

I think many of us have run into this.

You check all the air space maps, you're not in any restricted zone, yet someone freaks out and tells you you cannot fly. If you are a tourist and not a local, I have to agree with others in that the best thing to do is to say sorry, and move on. If you are going to be there a while, or this is your local turf, then arm yourself with the proper codes and regulations that you say allow you to fly in said area, and check back in with the person/agency that told you you cannot fly there.

Sometimes it is a matter of education and understanding. I try to always be polite and patient because so many people already have negative views of recreational drones. My neighbor freaked out one day when I was landing my new drone in the front yard. At first he didn't know who was piloting it, and then I called out to him and waved him over. I showed him how it worked, and even asked if he would like to fly it. I also was very clear at showing him the image from the camera and that this was no zoom lens that could invade his privacy, even if I was so inclined to do so, and of course, I am not.

I think he was reassured and felt better about me flying near his home. Just be knowledgeable and courteous, and I think things will work out for you.

Best of luck.

The state of Florida has a whole lot of coastline. Could you at least narrow it down to a region in Florida? But ultimately, most beaches are governed by a city, county, municipality, state, or national park service. While they may not control the airspace above the beach they can dictate if you can take off or land there. Some are even private property.

In my area, if you wanted to take off near Ocean Drive on Miami Beach the popo will quickly tell you that you are not allowed to, by city ordinance. Sorry for your bad experience.

People talk about Airspace and take-off / landing rights.

That's fine - but at end of day if you are a visitor to a property - public or private - it makes little difference. If the Lifeguard / Attendant / Ranger believes you should not fly there - you have a problem.

Don't forget also that any confrontation - intended or not - could lead to the one thing you are desperate to avoid - ACTUAL rule being imposed prohibiting flight at that location.

This sums up and to me is the best way : "Sometimes it is a matter of education and understanding. I try to always be polite and patient because so many people already have negative views of recreational drones. My neighbor freaked out one day when I was landing my new drone in the front yard. At first he didn't know who was piloting it, and then I called out to him and waved him over. I showed him how it worked, and even asked if he would like to fly it. I also was very clear at showing him the image from the camera and that this was no zoom lens that could invade his privacy, even if I was so inclined to do so, and of course, I am not.

I think he was reassured and felt better about me flying near his home. Just be knowledgeable and courteous, and I think things will work out for you. "

Its far better to be friendly, show, explain and get person on your side.

Nigel

Solent - sorry - My answer was a bit tongue in cheek.

Always assess the situation, and how hostile or friendly the officious person is being with you.  100% agree, that if you can show them you are a reasonable mature adult, who has checked the laws as far as they can - then I'd go that route too.  I'd also show them what the drone is all about - and educate them - no zoom etc.

If they are a little Hitler though, I'd be tempted to stand my ground - and show said person that you've looked up the laws.  Show the person the laws in question the laws that you are flying by.

Aplogise if they say you have missed any local by-laws.  Again - show maturity - RTH, shut down, ask which laws you have possibly contravened (so you can read up on them) - and get out of Dodge.

If you are 100% sure you are in the right though, offer to contact the police if need be (again - assess the person you are talking to).  I've done this once on a different matter, and the person (supposed council official - no identification) backed down fairly quickly.

If they are hostile or threatening - then politely ask their name, take a picture - and then talk to their relevant head office - only if you know you are abiding by laws.


Sorry - but I've a different stance SL.  I'm not disagreeing with you, but I've had far too many officious Anchors mis-quote laws to me, on all manner of things.
Give them a little bit of power - and they think they are Nepolean.

Don't get me wrong please - I'm not out to make trouble at all.  But if I know I am right - I find a firm but polite approach works well.

I don't disagree ... I'm just cautious about creating a situation that can get out of hand.

Many years ago - the UK enabled what was loosely called the 16'r rule. Until then at 16 you could ride a motorcycle up to 250cc on provisional licence ... take the test and be full licence on any motorcycle. Just before my 16th b/day - it all changed ... motorcycles were for 17 yr olds and 16'rs were confined to Mopeds ... that is maximum 49cc and with pedals as alternative means of propulsion. Later they enabled a power and speed limitation due to manufacturers pushing the limits of such  ... Gilera for example producing a 49cc that could do over 90mph.

Anyway - mu point is that when I got caught riding my 175cc Lambretta illegally - both Police who 'nabbed me' told me I should be riding a 50cc Honda Scooterette ... Me being the young smart-a*** told them they were wrong ... result ? I was warned for x offences ... after my being smart - they took my Lambretta and checked it over for every thing they could find ... I ended up in court with 19 items listed on the sheet ! I was guilty - no denial - but if I had just kept mouth shut and played along - half of those 'offences' would neverf have been on the list.

They were not the only mis-informed ... even years later I would hear Police make that mistake ... but I learnt my lesson.

Just a few years back - I was arrested for DUI in charge of my yacht on the river ... even though I was not actually looking after the boat or helming ... my nephew was. I held my side of the story ... went to court 3x ... the last appearance - the POlice said they had video of me on the boat. I asked for it to be shown in court, as it was first I had ever heard of it. Police stated they could not find it. I called on court to dismiss the claim as video was unavailable. I even explained that as I had lived by and sailed that river for many years  - I knew it was impossible to have a video at the location they claimed ... Court found for Police despite all the contrary evidence and statements. Not only that but the boat being UK registered allowed Command to be any person detailed to be ... in this case my Nephew ... Court refused to accept 'International Comity' which applies to foreign yachts etc.
I of course appealed again and refused to cough up the fines.
I went to have annual inspection of my car. Refused until I paid the fines.

They got me .....

Nigel

My question on all this is, do these lifeguards/rangers have sit down meetings with their supervisors and the supervisors fill their heads that it is illegal to fly drones on their beach front?  Where are they getting their information?  If I was a lifeguard, I wouldn't care if someone was flying their drone on the beach responsibly.  I feel they are being pressured into harassing us because their supervisors have directed them to do so.  Whether they are right or wrong, it still throws a wrinkle in your flying time.

Where do they get info from ? I think when it comes to semi-official persons - you get odd ones who believe they have rights to dictate over others.

It happens in all walks of life ... the part time soldier who regards himself as Special Forces ... the Community Special Constable who thinks he's a warranted Police Officer ....

Humans !

Nigel

So to be more specific I was fly in north palm beach. The beach has barely any space for people to sit and enjoy the sun without the water coming in and soaking them. So really there were maybe a handful of people there just enjoying the view.

I did what some of you have said, apologized and packed up.

But that spot in particular has a beautiful scenery with rocks and things that make the filming that more interesting and not just the water.

Ozzman2489 Posted at 2018-2-13 07:56
So to be more specific I was fly in north palm beach. The beach has barely any space for people to sit and enjoy the sun without the water coming in and soaking them. So really there were maybe a handful of people there just enjoying the view.

I did what some of you have said, apologized and packed up.

Have you looked into who might be 'controller' of that stretch and approach them to give 'permission' to fly it ? (When I say permission ... I'm not implying that its official).

If you have the local 'boss' whether Lifeguard or Council Authority give OK - it could go a long way to having a nice and agreeable time there ...  

I am trying to get permission to do an aerial video shoot of 'Little Star' ... a 32m Radio Telescope left over from Soviet era in the woods north of where I live.  It is part of a whole 'town' complex that is now empty and derelict after Soviets left. Underground secret bunkers - all sorts to service what was a closed community that not even local from nearby town could visit.
Soviets offered it in working order to Latvia when independence came - but Latvia refused it. Soviets then poured acid into the machinery ... cut power lines ... wrecked the ground stations and command gear. It took years and international help to get it working again. (A lot of the real story is not told of course by Latvian Authorities as you can imagine). I wish to video for myself and offered entire footage to VIRAC free of charge for their own use in whatever way they choose.

http://virac.eu/

It is proving difficult but with patience and showing what I have and want to do in safe manner may win through. Initial reaction was No. But that was from the general Info office who are 'programmed' to say no to unusual requests. I have politely taken it up with them and the management without being seen to bypass or sidestep anyone.
Fingers crossed !

Nigel

Can I suggest that you download Airmap and check the area that you were in. It might reveal some important information for you. I'm not suggesting that you were wrong or right, I do not know where in N. Palm you were at. Try the app, you might find your answer there. There is a lot of beach that you need ATC clearance to fly.

Florida Statues say nothing about State Parks This is the Statue:
Florida Statute 330.41 - Unmanned Aircraft Systems Act
Signed into law: June 23, 2017
State preemption: Cities and municipalities are prohibited from enacting their own drone regulations regarding things like airspace prohibitions and pilot requirements or certifications. However, municipalities may enforce laws regarding activity such as reckless endangerment, harassment, property damage, or other illegal acts committed via drone.
Critical infrastructure: Would prohibit drones from flying near facilities defined as “critical infrastructure”, including but not limited to: oil & gas refineries, power plants, correctional facilities, water treatment plants, telecommunications infrastructure, and correctional facilities.
Would prohibit weaponization of drones.
Reference: Florida Statutes

I fly mainly on my local beach here in the UK, simply because it is a few hundred yards away. The hard part is understanding who owns the beach. The Queen owns the bit between low tide and high tide (thats really clear isnt it), the local parish Council owns some of it, some private owners possess other parts, and there are some bits, many bits, that no one knows.  Of course there are no maps, except perhaps buried deep in vaults in London, so it tends to be a bit of a lottery, and very typically a British mess. So far no authority with a badge has challenged me about flying, but I reckon if horses can go there, dogs in their hundreds and microlights, then my little Phantom should be OK. But I believe this whole question highlights the general ignorance of 'officials' to what is and is not the law, not just where drones are concerned but many other things too. However, as has been illustrated above, what is and is not the law is almost irrelevant it is the personal esteem of the 'official'. In many cases the law is bent to show to those of us who do not have these badges, that it is not we who are in control. He is me thinking we had got away from such feudal ideas. Nah! Unless they control us as much as they possibly can we may even think we live in a law abiding democracy!

So I was just in Florida and a lifeguard came up to me and said I couldn’t fly in public places or something. I know I can and I also can fly in private area with certain practices.  That’s being said I recommend B4UFLY and Kittyhawk apps as they are both FAA approved at least Kittyhawk is. I got clearance (LAANC) prior and I told the lifeguard and she let me fly. But you’re not allowed to include anyone in your video who is not participating. Hope this helps