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DJI, please fix The One Problem with the Pro (NR with sharpness 0)
2370 33 2018-2-14
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0Kajuna0
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I know this has been discussed several times before, but now that the cheaper Air is out there's no excuse not to fix the (I strongly believe) main problem with the Pro: Noise Reduction when sharpening is disabled. This is a cropped section of a test I did today on the latest firmware. 0 Sharpening is not as bad as negative values but still has lots of watercolor effect (see the trees, the antenna on the left and the windows of the church). +1 retains all those details but introduces the ugly digital sharpening. (see individual frames below)



Both noise reduction and digital sharpening require processing power, but what we want is a less processed image, that is, less power required. I also don't think this has to do with the 60mbps cap, which is a pitty... we can live with. In fact, artificial sharpening also increases detail, which must be worsening the low bitrate issue.

Some users might want in-camera noise reduction or digital sharpening. That's fine! Leave -1, -2, -3 and +1, +2, +3 for them and keep 0 clean for those who would rather decide on sharpening or noise reduction in post.

Thanks in advance for listening.

Digital sharpening

Digital sharpening

Digital sharpening

Digital sharpening

Digital sharpening

Digital sharpening

Watercolor effect

Watercolor effect

Watercolor effect

Watercolor effect

Watercolor effect

Watercolor effect

Watercolor effect

Watercolor effect
2018-2-14
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Ex Machina
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Thanks for sharing. It would be interesting to see your tests redone on a bright day. My gut tells me that the issue would be less noticeable or absent. On bright days I feel like a negative sharpness setting might be called for, but so far have been too lazy to acstually test that theory.
2018-2-14
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0Kajuna0
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Ex Machina Posted at 2018-2-14 12:51
Thanks for sharing. It would be interesting to see your tests redone on a bright day. My gut tells me that the issue would be less noticeable or absent. On bright days I feel like a negative sharpness setting might be called for, but so far have been too lazy to acstually test that theory.

It happens under any lighting. It's a very well known problem:

Usually the sharpness setting in cameras adjusts digital sharpness ("smart" micro-contrast). It can go below zero if the default (zero) setting applies some sharpening, but the minimum (say -3) means no artificial sharpening, no noise reduction or blurring either: a clean image. Pros prefer that, as they can always add digital sharpening when editing the video, in a much more accurate way.

So sharpening is an unPROfessional setting that cannot be disabled on the Mavic PRO
2018-2-14
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Ex Machina
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2018-2-14 13:11
It happens under any lighting. It's a very well known problem: https://youtu.be/ZEQvOAsY6ks

Usually the sharpness setting in cameras adjusts digital sharpness ("smart" micro-contrast). It can go below zero if the default (zero) setting applies some sharpening, but the minimum (say -3) means no artificial sharpening, no noise reduction or blurring either: a clean image. Pros prefer that, as they can always add digital sharpening when editing the video, in a much more accurate way.

What I'm suggesting is that NR is applied more dynamically than just depending on a given sharpening setting, and that in bright, well-exposed conditions, the watercolor effect is not present, but, as I said, I actually haven't done the testing, theorizing instead based on my experience in bright conditions where a zero setting seems a bit crispy for my tastes.

There's also the 3D noise control issue that Phantom users can apparently turn off, discussed over here: https://forum.dji.com/thread-91149-1-1.html

I would love to have the ability to disable both of these types of NR for when they get in the way of good video.
2018-2-14
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0Kajuna0
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Ex Machina Posted at 2018-2-14 14:23
What I'm suggesting is that NR is applied more dynamically than just depending on a given sharpening setting, and that in bright, well-exposed conditions, the watercolor effect is not present, but, as I said, I actually haven't done the testing, theorizing instead based on my experience in bright conditions where a zero setting seems a bit crispy for my tastes.

There's also the 3D noise control issue that Phantom users can apparently turn off, discussed over here: https://forum.dji.com/thread-91149-1-1.html

Indeed, any kind of noise reduction algorithm should be turned off on a product called "Pro"
2018-2-14
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cristianc
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I agree with the OP! Make it happen DJI.
2018-2-14
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DJT_MVSP
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I think I have found the solution to turn off NR:
Set contrast to - 2 or - 3
2018-2-15
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0Kajuna0
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DJT_MVSP Posted at 2018-2-15 06:54
I think I have found the solution to turn off NR:
Set contrast to - 2 or - 3

Thanks for the advice, will try to test this tomorrow.
2018-2-15
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Oracle Miata
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I think that if it was actually possible it would have already been done many firmwares ago.  This has been the one complaint that renters the equation every time with the MP.  I do hope I’m wrong, as it’s this drones Achilles heel.
2018-2-15
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0Kajuna0
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Oracle Miata Posted at 2018-2-15 09:28
I think that if it was actually possible it would have already been done many firmwares ago.  This has been the one complaint that renters the equation every time with the MP.  I do hope I’m wrong, as it’s this drones Achilles heel.

It is surprising that it has not been fixed before. So it could be, indeed, a hardware limitation. But I don't see how disabling something can be unachievable. It's a software feature, as far as I can tell. And having it off requires LESS processing power than leaving it on.

The Phantom 4 at least introduced a setting to disable 3D noise reduction in a firmware update

2018-2-15
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Montfrooij
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That would be great indeed.
2018-2-15
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0Kajuna0
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DJT_MVSP Posted at 2018-2-15 06:54
I think I have found the solution to turn off NR:
Set contrast to - 2 or - 3

I tested this today. Lower contrast (-1,-3,-1) appears to retain some more details than -1,-1,-1, but still clearly less than  +1,-1,-1. However, +1,-3,-1 keeps lots of details and digital sharpening appears slightly less aggressive than +1,-1,-1. It might just be because of the lower contrast, but even after increasing contrast in post the overall look is slightly more pleasant. Additionally, it recovers data in the overexposed areas without the need to use D-Log.

I will do more tests and upload the results. I think +1,-3,-1 will be my go-to setting until DJI fixes this.
2018-2-16
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Lamplighter55
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2018-2-16 10:01
I tested this today. Lower contrast (-1,-3,-1) appears to retain some more details than -1,-1,-1, but still clearly less than  +1,-1,-1. However, +1,-3,-1 keeps lots of details and digital sharpening appears slightly less aggressive than +1,-1,-1. It might just be because of the lower contrast, but even after increasing contrast in post the overall look is slightly more pleasant. Additionally, it recovers data in the overexposed areas without the need to use D-Log.

I will do more tests and upload the results. I think +1,-3,-1 will be my go-to setting until DJI fixes this.

This is great testing! I'll be trying these settings out too - in addition to the other issue with the jerky cloudscapes (which I think is due to 'band width scavenging' from 'low' contrast low frequency areas of the image). More tests to drill this one down...
2018-2-17
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Chasing Light & Shadows
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I agree the noise reduction is horrible. To maximise image quality you have to nail the exposure, the examples in the OP are under exposed an making the noise a lot worse. If the image is exposed correctly then less noise reduction is applied and hence a cleaner image. Still though, with DJI would sort it out!
2018-2-17
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0Kajuna0
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Chasing Light & Shadows Posted at 2018-2-17 04:51
I agree the noise reduction is horrible. To maximise image quality you have to nail the exposure, the examples in the OP are under exposed an making the noise a lot worse. If the image is exposed correctly then less noise reduction is applied and hence a cleaner image. Still though, with DJI would sort it out!

I cropped the image to highlight the problem, which is more visible in darker areas. The fact that noise reduction is applied is a problem no matter how you expose, it's just less evident in brighter areas, but that's where oversharpening is most problematic too.
2018-2-17
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Chasing Light & Shadows
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2018-2-17 12:29
I cropped the image to highlight the problem, which is more visible in darker areas. The fact that noise reduction is applied is a problem no matter how you expose, it's just less evident in brighter areas, but that's where oversharpening is most problematic too.

I doubt DJI are ever going to fix it on the Mavic Pro, nailing the exposure is the only option if you want better video quality with less noise other than going down the Neatvideo route.
2018-2-17
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0Kajuna0
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Some more tests. Definitely going to use +1,-3,-1, but +0,-3,-1 retains quite a lot of detail too. The results were not always consistent betweed different tests, +1,-3,-1 appears to be the more reliable option. Also, lowering contrast to -3 allows you to expose more to the right (almost overexpose), hence improving the signal-to-noise ratio in darker areas.



2018-2-19
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A CW
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2018-2-19 03:55
Some more tests. Definitely going to use +1,-3,-1, but +0,-3,-1 retains quite a lot of detail too. The results were not always consistent betweed different tests, +1,-3,-1 appears to be the more reliable option.[view_image] Also, lowering contrast to -3 allows you to expose more to the right (almost overexpose), hence improving the signal-to-noise ratio in darker areas.
[view_image]
[view_image]

This is a great thread - thanks for sharing your findings.
2018-2-19
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kizilok
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My mavic air.  There are so much noises at my photo and video that i took at daylight ans iso 100
2018-2-19
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0Kajuna0
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kizilok Posted at 2018-2-19 20:38
My mavic air.  There are so much noises at my photo and video that i took at daylight ans iso 100

I have not yet seen consistent evidence that the sharpness vs noise reduction problem has been fixed in the Air, at a first glance it looks better in the comparisons I've seen.

However, if what you see is noise it might not be related to our Mavic Pro problem. You might have set sharpness too high, or areas of your image were underexposed for some reason. Hard to tell.
2018-2-20
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2018-2-20 00:42
I have not yet seen consistent evidence that the sharpness vs noise reduction problem has been fixed in the Air, at a first glance it looks better in the comparisons I've seen.

However, if what you see is noise it might not be related to our Mavic Pro problem. You might have set sharpness too high, or areas of your image were underexposed for some reason. Hard to tell.

https://forum.dji.com/forum.php? ... p;page=1#pid1210167

lets check it. i took daylight iso 100 and  0,0,0
2018-2-20
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0Kajuna0
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kizilok Posted at 2018-2-20 01:10
https://forum.dji.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=136693&page=1#pid1210167

lets check it. i took daylight iso 100 and  0,0,0

I've seen that in other Mavic Air footage. That looks like noise and maybe a little bit of digital sharpening, but nothing like the noise reduction problem the Mavic Pro has.
2018-2-20
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drone_bandit
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2-20 04:08
I've seen that in other Mavic Air footage. That looks like noise and maybe a little bit of digital sharpening, but nothing like the noise reduction problem the Mavic Pro has.

half year later, no improvement
2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r
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I don't shoot anything less than sharpness 1 because DJIs 'noise reduction' in its SHARPENING setting is as subtle as a sledgehammer .. worst noise algo I have EVER seen... flattens everything right out.. looks like a watercolor painted by a 5 year old...
2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2-14 14:48
Indeed, any kind of noise reduction algorithm should be turned off on a product called "Pro"

or on a setting called ZERO
2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r
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Chasing Light & Shadows Posted at 2-17 12:42
I doubt DJI are ever going to fix it on the Mavic Pro, nailing the exposure is the only option if you want better video quality with less noise other than going down the Neatvideo route.

only have the mavic pro for a month but by accident one sunset where the horizontal clouds were thicker than I anticipated.. I got some of my best results.

d-log 1 - 0 - 0 ND32  the lighting changed drastically as I turned into the setting sunset but it was dropping below the clouds.. EV dropped to a -2 but I kept filming anyway as I was testing.

I was able to pull great contrast and cloud detail from the sky and lift the shadows effectively yielding better results that parts of the video that were shot on the same settings but at EV0 or just under..

seems that for really high contrast lighting conditions d-log since its not raw.. really needs underexposure as anything that is overexposed is burned out and no way to recover..

still messing with the other style settings but it would seem to me .. again since its not raw .. that dropping saturation and contrast to negative numbers is going to rob too much data.. and if its gone its gone.. can't lift in post what is not there and not being raw.. if its not compressed into it at creation its not there ever...

but just like sharpening .. god only know what else DJI is messing with in those settings too..

any thoughts?
2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r Posted at 12-3 05:23
only have the mavic pro for a month but by accident one sunset where the horizontal clouds were thicker than I anticipated.. I got some of my best results.

d-log 1 - 0 - 0 ND32  the lighting changed drastically as I turned into the setting sunset but it was dropping below the clouds.. EV dropped to a -2 but I kept filming anyway as I was testing.

but just like sharpening .. god only know what else DJI is messing with in those settings too..
any thoughts?

Hmmmm,

a) we really need RAW camera sensor output
b) need a new mode that isn't pre-pre-tweeked
c) DJI to be more forthcoming to / upfront with it's customers (on everything)

2018-12-3
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HedgeTrimmer
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drone_bandit Posted at 12-3 05:06
half year later, no improvement

They have moved on.  Air migrated to Maintenance or EoLC mode?
2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 12-3 07:24
but just like sharpening .. god only know what else DJI is messing with in those settings too..
any thoughts?

i just wish the style 0 setting was just that .. not messed with... but I guess by definition any lossy format like jpeg has algorithmic compression and image shaping done in camera

maybe now that they bought hassleblad and supposedly own people that understand photography the firmware and hardware will improve

but I hear that people are not exactly blow away by the DJi hassleblad camera too .. so who knows...
2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r Posted at 12-3 08:22
i just wish the style 0 setting was just that .. not messed with... but I guess by definition any lossy format like jpeg has algorithmic compression and image shaping done in camera

maybe now that they bought hassleblad and supposedly own people that understand photography the firmware and hardware will improve

maybe now that they bought hassleblad and supposedly own people that understand photography the firmware and hardware will improve

If it works like it has at other companies which have bought buisnees with great products, created by brilliant people - the brilliant people will be fired.  The staff at company doesn't want any competition (aka threat) to their own jobs.

2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 12-3 10:25
maybe now that they bought hassleblad and supposedly own people that understand photography the firmware and hardware will improve

If it works like it has at other companies which have bought buisnees with great products, created by brilliant people - the brilliant people will be fired.  The staff at company doesn't want any competition (aka threat) to their own jobs.

very true trimmer .. astute observation...
2018-12-3
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DeuceDriv3r
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 12-3 10:25
maybe now that they bought hassleblad and supposedly own people that understand photography the firmware and hardware will improve

If it works like it has at other companies which have bought buisnees with great products, created by brilliant people - the brilliant people will be fired.  The staff at company doesn't want any competition (aka threat) to their own jobs.

too bad they didn't partner or get their camera tech from apple... if you are going to fly a $1500 dollar drone with a cell phone camera it should be a good cell phone camera with cool features!!!

2018-12-3
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HedgeTrimmer
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0Kajuna0 Posted at 2-19 03:55
Some more tests. Definitely going to use +1,-3,-1, but +0,-3,-1 retains quite a lot of detail too. The results were not always consistent betweed different tests, +1,-3,-1 appears to be the more reliable option.[view_image] Also, lowering contrast to -3 allows you to expose more to the right (almost overexpose), hence improving the signal-to-noise ratio in darker areas.
[view_image]
[view_image]

Maybe an easier comparison for sharpness.
Used Auto-Color Adjust in an attempt to equalize each sub-image for Color & Exposure.
5-n-1.jpg
2018-12-3
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0Kajuna0
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 12-3 13:36
Maybe an easier comparison for sharpness.
Used Auto-Color Adjust in an attempt to equalize each sub-image for Color & Exposure.

Good one.

+1,-3,-1 still beats the rest, for me
2018-12-4
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