I have been having constant back and forward conversations with an engineer (so called!) from DJI Refresh for almost a month now.  I had an incident on vacation where the DJI Go 4 app crashed, and inadvertantly made my Mavic Pro drone malfunction and crash into the sea.  Now I couldn't retrieve the drone, however, there are wierd irregularities in the flight record, and the app has obviously not recorded what is should, or corrupt the file.  Either way, the flight record shows the craft taking off and landing in the sea!! Now I thought this would be enough for DJI to review and admit that the drone malfunctioned through no fault of the operator, and therefore replace.  How wrong was I!! I cannot even get DJI to take responsibility for the app, and just receive answers that look like they were draughted by a politician!  They even accused me off trying to SCAM THEM!  I would just like to know some of your thoughts on this please?

Here is an example of the BS they are feeding me;

Dear Sir/Madam,

It has come to my attention that you desired to escalate your case. I have been assigned to look into your case and see what the possibilities are.

What I understand is that you have experienced a fly away with your Mavic Pro and our Engineers have performed their Data Analysis. Their result was thus:

“Time of flight record:16/01/2018 06:32:09

Fly035.dat

SN:08RDDC500104WG；Time of activation:2017-03-03

Point of accident:18.3457980,-78.3376304;

1.The aircraft worked under Go-home mode triggered by RC;

2.T=00:06,H=29m,D=379.4m,battery p fower 40%,the attitude of aircraft flipped over, T=00:11,the flight record was interrupted; Because of insufficient data, the cause of the accident could not ensure.

Conclusion: Insufficient data, could not ensure the cause of accident.”

It seems our Engineer were unfortunately unable to identify the cause of the incident due to information not being present. Because of this DJI is not able to provide full warranty on a replacement. Because we are not without sympathy we offer 30% discount on a replacement craft.

Hope to have informed you. If you have more questions I’d be happy to assist.

Kind Regards,

Support.eu5

Stefan van den Berk

SUPERVISOR SUPPORT NL

DJI Europe

The record could have stopped for a myriad of reasons and not all of them would have been a manufacturers defect, in fact is very easy to intentionally shut the record off. Because of this we can’t discern what happened to your craft and in turn can’t provide you with the full warranty.

It is regretful to hear that your friend all were looking forward to this dispute but that does not change the situation. I am really sorry for your situation.

Kind Regards,

Support.eu5

Stefan van den Berk

SUPERVISOR SUPPORT NL

DJI Europe

Dear,

Let us say we would not have this rule and you are not the outstanding citizen that I know you are.

A person with malign intent could go flying, turn his phone off (record would also stop being recorded because it loads to your mobile device) and then land the craft safely.

He then files a report for a fly away.

Voila, a new free aircraft.

And that is just one of the things that has prompted DJI to ensure these activities can’t happen. We would very much like to provide you with warranty, it’s easier for me at least I tell you that, but the policy at this point just won’t allow it because it is not certain what caused your incident. We can’t decide whether it falls within or out pilot responsibility. Because we are very well aware that this is incredibly inconvenient on your own part we at least try to meet you on the road by providing you with 30% discount.

Kind Regards,

Support.eu5

Stefan van den Berk

SUPERVISOR SUPPORT NL

DJI Europe

It was merely an explanation or the existence of this policy. We have gone through all the present data and we could not come to a conclusion. Whether we have printed every living and existing in the manual or not, this will not change your conclusion.

Without more data we will not renege on this analysis result. Would we have all the data you requested then we would more likely then not have made a conclusion but alas we don’t.

I am sorry sir, this will be it.

Kind Regards,

Support.eu5

Stefan van den Berk

We have never claimed you are scamming us I merely explained to you the reason and nature of this policy. The fact remains our Engineers could not, with all the provided data, prove
or disprove, the cause and reason of the incident and thus we have provided you with discount. The extra discount I myself provide you is not because I must, but because I want to give you more because I have sympathy for your situation. Contrary to popular
believe we do not get enjoyment from this process and it is FAR easier to provide you with the full warranty but alas, we are held back by policy which we have to follow.





Would you controller harbor any intel we could have used I would have asked for that in the beginning to prevent this entire discussion. I am really sorry, I will do whatever I
can for you, but I can’t change this conclusion without sufficient evidence to provide for the Engineer to evaluate.

The remote logs minimal data, unfortunately not the kind of data and amount of it to really aid us in cases like these. We have never had positive results from these files. We’re not without sympathy and would like to increase your discount to 35% on your replacement. It’s not much but we hope it will help slightly.

Kind Regards,

Support.eu5

Stefan van den Berk

SUPERVISOR SUPPORT NL

You want me to say that we are responsible for the application and thus in accordance with that you were going to use that as an argument to say we need to give you warranty, I was more than seeing where this argument is going and I am sure enough you knew as well that that argument was not going to change the situation.

Pardon my crassness, I merely wish to avoid a circular argument as neither of us has the time to repeat ourselves continuously.

Kind Regards,

Support.eu5

Stefan van den Berk

We take no responsibility for missing information. Until more information about the situation is provided and reviewed by the Engineer we will offer nothing else but the discount we have already offered.

I can repeat my anwer ad infititum and if I have to I most certainly will. We can’t determine the responsible party in your investigation without more information. If that information remains absent we can’t do anything else but offer you said discount

That will be it.

Dji will not replace most of the time without a drone or a full log of the flight, Sorry about your loss though.

I think you need to upload your logs.

And this is the reason I refuse to fly my drone over water. I could deal with it crashing on land, but it would kill me to have it fall in the lake/ocean.

Sorry for your loss, but what the above poster has stated is true.  It's just the companies policy and always has been.  Again, very sorry for your loss.

Any insurance company will need no reasonable doubt that there is wrongful claim. If even some doubt occurs they won’t pay up until they are 100% certain of the validity of the claim. Same thing happens here.

If you have a way to prove that the app crashed, it would be a whole different story.

Sorry for your loss.

Ebeard4 Posted at 2018-2-21 09:20
I think you need to upload your logs.

You probably should read first before replying...

The app is saving the log(s) on your device, if the app crashes, no log(s) will be saved on your device, so there is nothing to upload.

Even if you are able to re-connect the app to the RC, a new log is started, the old one that was started before the crash of the app is lost. It should be possible for the app to detect a "restart" and collect the already started log from the MP... I've already mentioned this almost a year ago when the app was crashing many times during one flight...

Even if the app is crashed, you are still in full control of the MP, fly it home with the RC without the app...

Mari Posted at 2018-2-21 09:37
You probably should read first before replying...

The app is saving the log(s) on your device, if the app crashes, no log(s) will be saved on your device, so there is nothing to upload.

"Even if the app is crashed, you are still in full control of the MP, fly it home with the RC without the app..."

100% Agree, this is why most of us that treasure our $1000 - $2000 investment fly within VLOS, and be as competent as possible flying in "ATTI" mode, you fly over water (which I have many times) but I know it is my risk.

I have to ask. What does flying over water have to do with anything. How does this affect the drone.

It's easy in hindsight sometimes, but there are one or two things that may have saved the Mavic. The RC unit should still have had full control over the aircraft, I don't know where your home point was but it may have been possible to fly back manually. Or as an alternative switch off controller and allow it to RTH after loss of signal.

There's little or no information available to suggest where the fault might lie, that unfortunately would be held on the aircrafts internal SD card.

The best option may be to accept their 30% offer and move forward.

Not everything is someone else’s fault. Flying is a risky activity. You may lose your drone.  Don’t risk what you can’t afford to lose.

On your next Drone I would get star farm Insurance. For $60 a year you can’t beat it. I would neve get DJIs refresh program.

my thought is that i agree with you. there are so many threads about disconnects and lost drones. When ever opportunity allows, flight records are shown here and whenever we see what the cause most likely is that is what we state in reply. There are many instances where pilot error appears clearly to be the fault (mostly but not limited to flyaways) However there are many 'unexplained losses". Disconnects are a common problem which causes that data is no longer be transmitted and therefore cannot be produced and then the automatic assumption of fault falls to the users. I believe this is wrong. Disconnects are frequently compained about - that is the fault and i expect that dji should fix this problem. There is a tactic acknowlagement of the fault from their side because every other update the problems that were present before seem to become corrected - however they never openly acknowlage this to us (i can understand why) but this does not make the fault and associated risks acceptable and i find it appaling that despite knowing well of this failure that they have not made a permanent fix or provided a fall back solution or produced a system that saves the essential data they need to make a full evalution. They have created a marvel of technology - they know a problem exists (disconnects and data loss consequences) yet they stay quiet on a solution and use that loss of data in their defense. i really feel for you - wish we could get a solution to the problem, it would surely be good for dji too.

Ebeard4 Posted at 2018-2-21 09:20
I think you need to upload your logs.

the OP posted the log in a previous thread .. see https://forum.dji.com/thread-133575-1-1.html

Mari Posted at 2018-2-21 09:37
You probably should read first before replying...

The app is saving the log(s) on your device, if the app crashes, no log(s) will be saved on your device, so there is nothing to upload.

Totally Agree

While I have sympathies for your case and that it should be a warranty case, I can see that your story is hard to prove.
I'd only fly over water where I can recover the drone if things go bad.

One thing I don't find okay is you posting those e-mails with the name of the employee that was working on your case.
This is probably a guy who only does his job as DJI demands it.
Dragging his name here chiseling it into all internet archives and search engine indices for all time is just wrong and totally unnecessary.
IMO you have no right to do that.

Just my two cents.

fansf77370fb Posted at 2018-2-21 10:20
I have to ask. What does flying over water have to do with anything. How does this affect the drone.

Other than not being able to recover the internal flight records that are only recorded on the bird.......... nothing.

Just to be clear, your logs do NOT show that you took off from the sea.  They show in the "DJIFlightRecord_2018-01-15_[17-29-20]" log that you took off from the beach, flew for about 2 mins 20secs, then there is a gap of about 30 seconds and then the loggging picks back up in the "DJIFlightRecord_2018-01-15_[17-32-09]" log where it continues for about 10 seconds before ending without any indication of what happened.  The last reported location in that log file is over the sea as you mention.  

When your app crashed, under normal circumstances, your RC will still be connected to the aircraft and you can pilot it from there and bring it back.  However, I guess with it over 1200 feet away at the time, you probably couldn't visually see it to be able to know what controls to use to pilot it back.  

Does the above seem like a fair description of what you recall?

Bekaru Tree Posted at 2018-2-21 11:17
my thought is that i agree with you. there are so many threads about disconnects and lost drones. When ever opportunity allows, flight records are shown here and whenever we see what the cause most likely is that is what we state in reply. There are many instances where pilot error appears clearly to be the fault (mostly but not limited to flyaways) However there are many 'unexplained losses". Disconnects are a common problem which causes that data is no longer be transmitted and therefore cannot be produced and then the automatic assumption of fault falls to the users. I believe this is wrong. Disconnects are frequently compained about - that is the fault and i expect that dji should fix this problem. There is a tactic acknowlagement of the fault from their side because every other update the problems that were present before seem to become corrected - however they never openly acknowlage this to us (i can understand why) but this does not make the fault and associated risks acceptable and i find it appaling that despite knowing well of this failure that they have not made a permanent fix or provided a fall back solution or produced a system that saves the essential data they need to make a full evalution. They have created a marvel of technology - they know a problem exists (disconnects and data loss consequences) yet they stay quiet on a solution and use that loss of data in their defense. i really feel for you - wish we could get a solution to the problem, it would surely be good for dji too.

Should the craft not fly back home automatically when it's disconnected from RC?

Kloo Gee Posted at 2018-2-21 15:33
Just to be clear, your logs do NOT show that you took off from the sea.  They show in the "DJIFlightRecord_2018-01-15_[17-29-20]" log that you took off from the beach, flew for about 2 mins 20secs, then there is a gap of about 30 seconds and then the loggging picks back up in the "DJIFlightRecord_2018-01-15_[17-32-09]" log where it continues for about 10 seconds before ending without any indication of what happened.  The last reported location in that log file is over the sea as you mention.  

When your app crashed, under normal circumstances, your RC will still be connected to the aircraft and you can pilot it from there and bring it back.  However, I guess with it over 1200 feet away at the time, you probably couldn't visually see it to be able to know what controls to use to pilot it back.  

Assuming everything you said is true, he should initiate RTH

Sir, as I mentioned in this post: https://forum.dji.com/thread-133575-1-1.html The data analysis is based on all the info you offered, we're sorry it's hard to tell what happened at that time. Also, the APP crash will not affect the RC controls, I'm afraid that warranty is not available in this kind of situation. Sorry about this. The designated team will keep follow up this case as well.  

DJI Susan Posted at 2018-2-21 19:35
Sir, as I mentioned in this post: https://forum.dji.com/thread-133575-1-1.html The data analysis is based on all the info you offered, we're sorry it's hard to tell what happened at that time. Also, the APP crash will not affect the RC controls, I'm afraid that warranty is not available in this kind of situation. Sorry about this. The designated team will keep follow up this case as well.

Hi dji susan - the app crashing is really the problem.
Where can we find advise on why this happens - if it could be prevented from happening then a lot less problems will result.
There is a list of possibilities (check cable, turn on airplane mode, adjust antennae, reload app etc etc) but there must be some other reasons also because i for one have tried all the things i was advised to do - yet sometimes the connection is good over a number of flights and other times bad almost each and every flight - and other times the top half of the screen is good and the bottom half is bad.

There must be either a hardware or software point of weakness or failure that causes these problems which all to often result in drone loss - if we can locate the problem then there exists a chance to fix it.

Is it not possible to request a list from engineers listing all possibilities in point form that causes weak signal and disconnects?
or 3 lists:
1. Factors that can cause weak signal leading to disconnects
2. Factors that cause app to fail during flight
3. Factors that cause the rc to disconnect

it is in every ones best interests to solve this problem of mid-flight disconnects - please help us find the problem - we have no one else who can help us with solid answers except for dji

lomo2017 Posted at 2018-2-21 16:44
Should the craft not fly back home automatically when it's disconnected from RC?

If there was a disconnect of RC with MP RTH would have kicked in... but OP stated that the app crashed...
He probably panicked and didn't know what to do... tried to re-connect the app, but in the meantime didn't pay attention of what was happening with the MP.

In the past it happened many times during flights that the app crashed, the first time I panicked, the second time (and all times after that) I simply flew the bird back... Hitting and holding the RTH-button maybe could have saved his MP... but we will never no.

Train yourself in flying the "bird" without of the use of your device... keep it in sight en fly it manually...

Bekaru Tree Posted at 2018-2-22 05:10
Hi dji susan - the app crashing is really the problem.
Where can we find advise on why this happens - if it could be prevented from happening then a lot less problems will result.
There is a list of possibilities (check cable, turn on airplane mode, adjust antennae, reload app etc etc) but there must be some other reasons also because i for one have tried all the things i was advised to do - yet sometimes the connection is good over a number of flights and other times bad almost each and every flight - and other times the top half of the screen is good and the bottom half is bad.

The APP may crash in many situations, our engineers are keeping working on optimization, but it is still hard to ensure the performance on various mobile devices. We have listed some recommended devices which have been tested so that we can offer a better experience.

DJI Susan Posted at 2018-2-22 19:36
The APP may crash in many situations, our engineers are keeping working on optimization, but it is still hard to ensure the performance on various mobile devices. We have listed some recommended devices which have been tested so that we can offer a better experience.

Hi dji susan - i understand that dji has a list of recommended devises but it is clear from other posts that even some recommended devises experiance the same problems - perhaps for less time, i do not know, but clearly a devise from the recomended list is not a guarentee that it will work properly.
I have asked previously about what makes a devise eligble to be on the recomended list but received no reply.  i therefore make the assumption that it is to do with phone/devise specifications and researched the specifications of all the android devises recommended by dji.
Both my old devise (which i bought on recomendation from my dji drone supplier) and my new devise has far better specs than some of the devises on the recomended list - so now i can only assume that specifications are not important.
Yet since i do not understand what is important feature to make a devise appear on the recommended list i do not know which way to move.
Also i do not understand why sometimes my devise works fine (like the app version in early january 2018) and for other app versions it is a problem. sometimes a bit problem and other time less a problem but still not working properly.
Please answer this question: do devises appear on the recommended list because those are models that the app is tested on and made to work with before the new app versions are launched?

Mari Posted at 2018-2-21 09:37
You probably should read first before replying...

The app is saving the log(s) on your device, if the app crashes, no log(s) will be saved on your device, so there is nothing to upload.

You’re right. I stand corrected. I just have never had connection problems with an app crash in my 50+ hours of MP flying and never realized it loads solely on the app.
Thanks for clarifying.