From the standpoint of flying legally, we are supposed to maintain visual contact with our UAS while in flight at all times.  This is specified as without visual aids like binoculars.  This got me wondering.  I would like to hear your opinions and experience.  Here's my question.  In perfect conditions with excellent visibility and lighting conditions, how far do you think you can see your Phantom 4 assuming you have perfect vision.  I am trying to get an idea of just how far you could fly and still maintain the requirement of visual contact.  Any thoughts?
--Jim

At what height?

As per FAA, they are allowing up to 400 feet to fly a drone. Please see FAA's statement:

After a comprehensive risk analysis, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has raised the unmanned aircraft (UAS) “blanket” altitude authorization for Section 333 exemption holders and government aircraft operators to 400 feet. Previously, the agency had put in place a nationwide Certificate of Waiver or Authorization (COA) for such flights up to 200 feet.

The new COA policy allows small unmanned aircraft—operated as other than model aircraft (i.e. commercial use)—to fly up to 400 feet anywhere in the country except restricted airspace and other areas, such as major cities, where the agency prohibits UAS operations.

“This is another milestone in our effort to change the traditional speed of government,” said FAA Administrator Michael Huerta. “Expanding the authorized airspace for these operations means government and industry can carry out unmanned aircraft missions more quickly and with less red tape.”

The FAA expects the move will reduce the workload for COA applications for industry UAS operators, government agencies and the FAA's Air Traffic Organization. The agency also estimates the move will lessen the need for individual COAs by 30 to 40 percent. Other provisions of an FAA authorization, such as registering the UAS and making sure pilots have the proper certification, still apply.

Under the blanket COA, the FAA will permit flights at or below 400 feet for UAS operators with a Section 333 exemption for aircraft weighing less than 55 pounds and for government UAS operations. Operators must fly under daytime Visual Flight Rules, keep the UAS within visual line of sight of the pilot and stay certain distances away from airports or heliports:

Five nautical miles (NM) from an airport having an operational control tower; or
Three NM from an airport with a published instrument flight procedure, but not an operational tower; or
Two NM from an airport without a published instrument flight procedure or an operational tower; or
Two NM from a heliport with a published instrument flight procedure.

Natalia i think he means distance visually, not height....

Jimmy hoffa Posted at 2018-6-1 15:12
Natalia i think he means distance visually, not height....

Thank you for the correction. As per the latest firmware of the Phantom 3 Standard,  v1.11.20, we added this feature with a maximum height of 30 meters and a maximum distance of 50 meters when an aircraft is flying.

I use Lume Cubes on my Phantom 3 Pro’, so my VLOS, is easily several miles.

Aside from that, I can see all the way to the Moon and on a clear night, Mars.

Heaven...


RedHotPoker

My record is 4100 feet during the day, no lights.  And I don't have the eyes I did back in the day...

I dont think this question can be answered easily.
There are many variables that come into play.
You mention in perfect conditions with excellent visability and lighting and perfect vision. My question is how often do all these variables come together? Dont forget we are all old farts most of us have forgotten what perfect vision is a long time ago.
Also dont forget altitude plays a part in this as well using simple trig calculations the higher your drone is the further away it is.
The next variable is the background do you have the sky on a bright sunny day with clear blue or white cloud background or a dark mountian range in the distance?
Also vlos means you should be able to easily see the orientation of the drone not just a spot even using artificial lighting on the drone like lume cubes there is a point were the drone is still just a dot.
So when you really put it together into one basket then in reality you cant fly very far away at all maybe upto 300-400 meters assuming there are no obstructions.

Put your drone on the ground then walk away from it 300 meters and look back at it what detail can you see?
Can you tell which way its facing?

Hellsgate Posted at 2018-6-1 15:45
Also vlos means you should be able to easily see the orientation of the drone not just a spot

Do you have a link?  Not trying to argue - I just haven't heard/seen/read this before re daylight flight.  It does apply at night.  But I've never heard of VLOS described this way for a daylight flight.  Thanks

This is from casa website in Australia im pretty sure faa have the same rule

Yeah - I don't think they do.  Thanks for your trouble

Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-6-1 16:11
Yeah - I don't think they do.  Thanks for your trouble

I would have thought it would be the same as majority of our laws are a copy of yours

Here's a thread I just found:  https://forum.dji.com/thread-57884-1-1.html

This is one of the very big issues for those of us who wish to use our drones in non recreational tasks like broadacre agriculture.

My belief is that we have to be good drone citizens or else we will face even more restrictions against our hobby/interest.

Technically in Australia, I fall into the category of Use of a drone between 2 and 25kg by a private landowner.

However my paddocks are bigger than 300 meters so VLOS is an issue. Max Altitude is also an issue when trying to map large areas.

Reading CASA's explanation, Flying over your own land - excluded RPA,it says *Please note: If you want to operate outside these conditions (for example, fly closer than 30 metres to people), you will need to hold a remote operator’s certificate (ReOC)


I have rang CASA's helpline and gotten advice (very helpful person on CASA's end of the phone) and later this year, I will be doing my remote pilot licence (RePL) and remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) operators certificate.

This should also open other opportunities for me in my local area.

Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-6-1 16:17
Here's a thread I just found:  https://forum.dji.com/thread-57884-1-1.html

Very interesting but kinda leaves it open to argument in a court of law. Defendant/pilot could easily state that he could see the drone perfectly when in actuality he could not.
How does the law prove that he could not see it and how does the pilot prove he could see it?
Interesting topic.

Earlier today I took flight heading east into a clear blue sky. I immediately ascended to a cruising altitude of 320 ft. which was probably overkill but wanted to be certain I didn’t stumble into a cell phone tower. Staring at the telemetry data I lost visual sight almost immediately but after scanning the sky I was just able to make out this white speck in an otherwise clear sky. That was at about 3500 feet. At around 4200 hundred my display started getting choppy and the last image showed her just entering the cemetery. Moments after that my controller went red and all contact was lost.  Hopefully my drone had dropped to 80ft and was doing her assigned photography. I set a timer when she left so I just had to sit down and wait for six minutes and I expected to see her coming in from the northwest at 300 ft. It’s a little nerve wracking and I’ve found stress completely destroys one’s ability to accurately estimate elapsed time, hence the timer. She was right on schedule. My remote reconnected, I flipped back to P mode and landed safely.  What is this VLOS I keep hearing about?

fans7fabde5b Posted at 2018-6-1 18:09
Earlier today I took flight heading east into a clear blue sky. I immediately ascended to a cruising altitude of 320 ft. which was probably overkill but wanted to be certain I didn’t stumble into a cell phone tower. Staring at the telemetry data I lost visual sight almost immediately but after scanning the sky I was just able to make out this white speck in an otherwise clear sky. That was at about 3500 feet. At around 4200 hundred my display started getting choppy and the last image showed her just entering the cemetery. Moments after that my controller went red and all contact was lost.  Hopefully my drone had dropped to 80ft and was doing her assigned photography. I set a timer when she left so I just had to sit down and wait for six minutes and I expected to see her coming in from the northwest at 300 ft. It’s a little nerve wracking and I’ve found stress completely destroys one’s ability to accurately estimate elapsed time, hence the timer. She was right on schedule. My remote reconnected, I flipped back to P mode and landed safely.  What is this VLOS I keep hearing about?

What you did is illegal.
And admitting to it opens you up to all sorts of legal issues.
If you cant see your drone then you shouldnt be flying.

RedHotPoker Posted at 2018-6-1 15:24
I use Lume Cubes on my Phantom 3 Pro’, so my VLOS, is easily several miles.

Aside from that, I can see all the way to the Moon and on a clear night, Mars.

You have seen the light my friend......

Hellsgate Posted at 2018-6-1 16:52
Very interesting but kinda leaves it open to argument in a court of law. Defendant/pilot could easily state that he could see the drone perfectly when in actuality he could not.
How does the law prove that he could not see it and how does the pilot prove he could see it?
Interesting topic.

My concern is that the onus will be on the pilot to prove that they have been operating within the regs, in other words guilty until proved innocent.

fans7fabde5b Posted at 2018-6-1 18:09
Earlier today I took flight heading east into a clear blue sky. I immediately ascended to a cruising altitude of 320 ft. which was probably overkill but wanted to be certain I didn’t stumble into a cell phone tower. Staring at the telemetry data I lost visual sight almost immediately but after scanning the sky I was just able to make out this white speck in an otherwise clear sky. That was at about 3500 feet. At around 4200 hundred my display started getting choppy and the last image showed her just entering the cemetery. Moments after that my controller went red and all contact was lost.  Hopefully my drone had dropped to 80ft and was doing her assigned photography. I set a timer when she left so I just had to sit down and wait for six minutes and I expected to see her coming in from the northwest at 300 ft. It’s a little nerve wracking and I’ve found stress completely destroys one’s ability to accurately estimate elapsed time, hence the timer. She was right on schedule. My remote reconnected, I flipped back to P mode and landed safely.  What is this VLOS I keep hearing about?

What is this VLOS I keep hearing about?
VLOS = Visual Line Of Sight
Simply put to fly legally you must at all times be able to see your drone.

I was out flying just now and could see my bird from about 4000ft out. Like most have said it varies on your own sight and the conditions out.

If I want to film a specific area I’m usually pretty close to it so VLOS doesn’t come into play because I’m close to it.

Tearuup Posted at 2018-6-1 18:21
You have seen the light my friend......

Yes, and it twinkles like a North Star of Bethlehem. A pair of ‘em...


RedHotPoker

In many countries VLOS is not just that, and should not be interpreted as that, it should be changed to VLOOS, Visual Line Of Orientated Sight,
ok, that said, i tested how far i could see my P4P a while back and i managed to get to 660m, at that distance its not so much the seeing it, its the concentration to keep looking at that wee pin prick thats very difficult. as for knowing the orientation, meh, easy peasy, look at the screen lol

Oh Jim, how far away you can see a white Phantom 4 is a matter of color on the background. You should easily see it in 500 meters distance if it flies with trees with leaves as a background. If you raise the altitude to an light blue sky, you will most likely lose VLOS. Conversely, it will certainly be if the drone is an P4P of the dark editions.

If you fly at night, the background color is almost no matter when it's the drone's light marking strength that determines the distance of the VLOS.

As a wise man once said many years ago, everything depends on the external circumstances. And he was almost right in the assertion.

Fly safe, regards Leif.

Hellsgate Posted at 2018-6-1 15:45
I dont think this question can be answered easily.
There are many variables that come into play.
You mention in perfect conditions with excellent visability and lighting and perfect vision. My question is how often do all these variables come together? Dont forget we are all old farts most of us have forgotten what perfect vision is a long time ago.

The answer is actually pretty easy. VLOS means you have to be able to determine visually (not by looking at the screen) the ATTITUDE of the drone.
And this is fairly difficult since we are flying basically a cube.

The only thing that gives us an idea of front and back of that cube in the sky is the camera.
If you can't see the camera anymore, you are outside VLOS.

I can't determine the attitude once is more than 50-60m away. Bummer.

FAA for Part-107:
Additionally, other provisions of part 107 require the remote pilot to know the UA’s location; to determine the UA’s attitude, altitude, and direction;
to yield the right-of-way to other aircraft; and to maintain the ability to see and avoid other aircraft.

other provisions of part 107 require the remote pilot to know the UA’s location; to determine the UA’s attitude, altitude, and direction;

This is not coming up in a search of faa.gov

https://www.google.com/search?rl ... .0....0.66Mpr-t_a0Q

Do you have a link from the faa site?  

Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-6-2 02:58
This is not coming up in a search of faa.gov

https://www.google.com/search?rl ... .0....0.66Mpr-t_a0Q

It's from a FAA pdf. I try to attach it here.
Read at 5.14.1

AC 107-2

Pg 5/11

5.14.1 Limitations. As with other operations in part 107, sUAS operations involving the
transport of property must be conducted within VLOS of the remote pilot. While the
VLOS limitation can be waived for some operations under the rule, it cannot for
transportation of property. Additionally, part 107 does not allow the operation of an
sUAS from a moving vehicle or aircraft if the small UA is being used to transport
property for compensation or hire. This limitation cannot be waived. The maximum total
weight of the small UA (including any property being transported) is limited to under
55 pounds. Additionally, other provisions of part 107 require the remote pilot to know the
UA’s location; to determine the UA’s attitude, altitude, and direction; to yield the
right-of-way to other aircraft; and to maintain the ability to see and avoid other aircraft.

Eric13 Posted at 2018-6-2 03:04
It's from a FAA pdf. I try to attach it here.
Read at 5.14.1

Thank-you.

The section of the pdf which discusses "attitude" refers to a "VO" which is a Visual Observer who is aiding the pilot.  There is nothing there discussing the VLOS requirement of the pilot himself regarding attitude.  

Nonetheless, it's good info and something I wasn't aware of.  

The other thing is, hobbyists in the USA who meet model requirements have their own set of rules which are different than Part 107.

Thanks again.

Bashy Posted at 2018-6-2 03:09
AC 107-2

Pg 5/11

"other provisions" is referring to the section discussing VO requirements

I can see about 4.1 miles ;)

Mark, i did find this

5.12 Remaining Clear of Other Aircraft. A remote PIC has a responsibility to operate the
small UA so it remains clear of and yields to all other aircraft. This is traditionally
referred to as “see and avoid.” To satisfy this responsibility, the remote PIC must know
the location and flight path of his or her small UA at all times. The remote PIC must be
aware of other aircraft, persons, and property in the vicinity of the operating area, and
maneuver the small UA to avoid a collision, as well as prevent other aircraft from having
to take action to avoid the small UA.

I think that pretty much takes care of it....

It's interesting to me that FAA seems to go out of its way to be sure not to use the words "attitude" and "orientation" when discussing a remote pilot's VLOS.  

It would be so simple for them to simply define VLOS somewhere, and to use words such as the two above.  It's almost as if they have deliberately left it vague and open for judgement.  

The AMA uses them.  They use them to define the limitations while flying at night.  And that limits potential night flying distances by quite a bit.  

But they are not found in any guidelines regarding daytime model flying.  And I think it's possible that's why FAA has deliberately not used them to define VLOS when releasing Part 107 rules two summers ago.

Thanks

Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-6-2 03:11
Thank-you.

The section of the pdf which discusses "attitude" refers to a "VO" which is a Visual Observer who is aiding the pilot.  There is nothing there discussing the VLOS requirement of the pilot himself regarding attitude.  

You are right - but does it make sense that the abscence of a VO allows to fly beyond being able to determine attitude and direction?
I can't find it officially in FAA docs. The website below mentiones the FAA rule.

It's the same in Germany: We must always be able to determine the "Fluglage" (Attitude). Anything beyond is illegal.
This is the biggest obstacle for all drone enthusiasts.

Per codified FAA mandate, a remote pilot must always know the unmanned  aircraft’s (UA) location, determine the UA’s attitude, altitude, and  direction of flight, observe the airspace for other air traffic hazards,  and determine that the UA does not endanger the life or property of  another.

https://www.altavian.com/2018/04/11/flying-beyond-visual-line-of-sight/

I think a pair of wing mirrors would suffice, the whole idea is so you know where you are and which way to go in case of  other aircraft, you cannot do this with FPV because you cannot see around you, straight ahead, down and up, wing mirrors would nail it

I have over 8 drones w/ GPS and I never let any of my drones out of my sight. After a few loss's of some aircraft, plus a few crashes, "humility" finally set in. I like flying a lot and not being so "dumb."

In the UK, when an investigation is done, the limit always seems to be taken as 500m.  In reality, if I take my eyes off the aircraft at that distance then I can never find it again, even if I know exactly where it is because it is directly above me, so for me I don't consider that to be the real limit, but you did say with perfect conditions and presumably perfect eyesight, and assuming that to determine the attitude at that distance it is acceptable to fly 10m and see which direction it moves.

We are supposed to be able to see sufficiently well to avoid collisions with other aircraft at whatever limit we are using, and given a helicopter, 500m may be reasonable, certainly if it is 500m vertical, but given a DJI Spark, there is no way you can see to avoid it at even half that!

Eric13 Posted at 2018-6-2 03:40
You are right - but does it make sense that the abscence of a VO allows to fly beyond being able to determine attitude and direction?
I can't find it officially in FAA docs. The website below mentiones the FAA rule.

Not trying to nitpick, but the writer in your link has taken the words and phrase that applies to the VO and has applied it to the pilot.  Thanks

I feel that I understand your question and what you are looking for and I am a Part 107 Pilot. I practice my eye hand coordination quite a bit and I do this in a very large open area in the country, around 50 Acres with no obstructions. I usually fly at 135' AGL to stay above the tree line in case I drift out of my flight zone. With no obstruction in my VLOS and the Phantom at 135' AGL I can see it comfortably at 1200' and I know it direction by the movement on the Horizon on most any day. A point to add is that I changed to the Obsidian for this very reason. The black hull is much easier to see and find on the Horizon than the white version. The white pretty much blends into any skyline. If for any reason I lose my orientation I check my radar square in the lower lefthand corner to see exactly where I am at that distance. This is why it is very important to make sure it is in perfect sync  and do some practice with it to become familiar with its orientation and operation. So, my maximum distance is 1200' with no obstructions and I can see it on the Horizon.  Would I fly at that distance in a rural built up area, no. I become very uncomfortable when I cannot see it even if it is one a hundred feet away. Flying in my open area at no more than 600' is my norm and keeps me comfortable.