i purchased a DJI mavic air drone after watching the official product presentation and advertisement from their official site  mainly for flying indoors and over the water. After crashing the drone and sent it to them i exchanged a lot of emails. Trying to understand what went wrong they admit that the drone based on the user manual  its not safe to fly over water and indoors (ATTI mode) something that is opposite from whay they advertise the drone for .So is mavic air a fraud ?
[img]https://forum44.djicdn.com/data/attachment/forum/blob:https://forum.dji.com/eca88b01-0604-4c5d-9376-d554edc55f31[/img]


[img]https://forum33.djicdn.com/data/attachment/forum/blob:https://forum.dji.com/8d6a61f4-4219-480d-87ad-77ffc48f18f0[/img]

No as you can fly it in those conditions but you obviously need to read the manual and gain the experience required to fly it safely. I've flown mine over water and indoors with no issues.

A CW Posted at 2018-6-21 00:38
No as you can fly it in those conditions but you obviously need to read the manual and gain the experience required to fly it safely. I've flown mine over water and indoors with no issues.

you are very lucky so far according to DJI technical support here is their response about ATTI mode ( indoor flights)

Dear Dion,

thanks for the email.  first please look at the definition of the atti mode(opti mode)
​Please look at the red marked sentence.  The aircraft is not able to position itself or autobrake.  So It would response to your controller but it will not go exactly that direction, because the drone keeps drifting randomly in opti or atti mode.
So in this case it does not matter how you tried to retrieve the controll.  It could hardly be put under controll because it drifts randomly.  In this case if it is not crashed, then it is quite lucky.  If it is crashed as your case, it is also normal and not a technical error.

I am looking forward to your reply.

Best regards
Technical support
DJI GmbH

Atti mode needs a lot of practice as you will be flying without GPS.   I have flown mine over water without an issue but its always a risk with mavic or any drone.

dion2 Posted at 2018-6-21 00:57
you are very lucky so far according to DJI technical support here is their response about ATTI mode ( indoor flights)

Dear Dion,

It utilises the downward vision positioning sensors effectively in order to hold it's position in the absence of a GPS lock which will be difficult to obtain indoors for obvious reasons - that is not specific to the Mavic Air but all drones.

dion2 Posted at 2018-6-21 00:57
you are very lucky so far according to DJI technical support here is their response about ATTI mode ( indoor flights)

Dear Dion,

The quad flies just fine in ATTI mode. The thing is YOU need to KNOW how to fly. It really is that simple. Most of us have cut our teeth flying RC Helicopters, planes, and quads that have no automatic position hold features in them. Todays pilots simply can't figure out how to fly with out all the training wheels. Having flown rc planes and helis for 20+ years it is no big deal to fly in atti mode. Get yourself a quad with no GPS like the blade QX  (small micro version) learn to fly it. Get use to it coming toward you and the proper stick response to correct its flight. You'll find this a much more enjoyable way to fly, and gain skills that will pay off when your GPS or vision sensors quit working. Most of the reported, so called FLYAWAYS that I read on here are simply pilots that can't pilot. Not all of them mind you. but a vast majority of them. What DJI means here with their explanation of ATTI mode is that the quad is not going to stay in one spot while in ATTI mode. The reason for that is it is not locked on a GPS colum for position. it will drift slightly. THIS is where you come in as the PILOT. You need to correct the quads position by stick inputs to keep it where YOU want it. Don't let the MAvic Air fly you, YOU fly it. "tell" it where to be in space with your stick inputs. All this can only be learned by practice on one with no GPS on the quad. Hope this helps.

Do not "Fly closely".  And it might affect the vision system.  So dont fly stupidly close and rely on automatics to get you out of trouble.  Looks like DJI is being sensible and honest.  Water isnt some sort of corrosive acid lava that'll dissolve your drone - if you dont fly it INTO the water it does nothing at all.

You can fly over water and indoor, BUT you need to be very careful as it will be less safe than somewhere above a grass field with no objects around it.
So far I did not dare flying over water, because I don't feel skilled enough to do that.
I feel like I need some more practice.
So certainly no fraud. Just one of the occasions where you should RTFM and practice before going into the deep.

my incident crashing the drone is not the issue.i own and fly many drones and of course you make mistakes and crash sometimes .
my point is to fly a drone that that flies safely . When the DJI support department  writes that ATTI mode is unsafe then i don't fly indoors . And my question why you advertise a product when its unsafe .
here is the email where i erased a sentence concerning my case.
       
Support9.DE （Support）
6月20日 CST20:51

Dear Dion,

It is unsafe to fly in Atti mode,
What wrote in the manual is correct.


Best regards
Technical support
DJI GmbH

dion2 Posted at 2018-6-21 02:35
my incident crashing the drone is not the issue.i own and fly many drones and of course you make mistakes and crash sometimes .
my point is to fly a drone that that flies safely . When the DJI support department  writes that ATTI mode is unsafe then i don't fly indoors . And my question why you advertise a product when its unsafe .
here is the email where i erased a sentence concerning my case.

Anything that takes off is technically 'unsafe' - the key is to know how to minimise risks.

The mavic air is quite safe to fly indoors, but in order to fly indoors, your environment needs to be safe to fly in, so first your location needs to be very well lit, you need proper textured floor covering for vision to lock on to
Your aircraft will hold its lock well in both GPS and OPTI, you said you own many drones so you should understand how all your modes work.
If you do all above then your aircraft won’t go to atti mode so you have nothing to worry about.
Also flying over water it is recommended that you stay a minimum of 15 metres altitude, but it’s still called flying over water, if you choose to fly lower be careful and alert to what could go wrong.
So in answer to your question is No it’s not a fraud, but it requires a pilot to make sure he flys in a safe manner, and a safe environment.

dion2 Posted at 2018-6-21 02:35
my incident crashing the drone is not the issue.i own and fly many drones and of course you make mistakes and crash sometimes .
my point is to fly a drone that that flies safely . When the DJI support department  writes that ATTI mode is unsafe then i don't fly indoors . And my question why you advertise a product when its unsafe .
here is the email where i erased a sentence concerning my case.

Surely all drones by their nature are unsafe irrespective of flight mode. It is then up to the pilot to ensure they fly in a manner where there is no risk to others. Flying indoors or close to any objects are probably two very high risk choices. Provided there is sufficient light then the VPS should hold the aircraft perfectly stable when indoors. And to avoid confusing the VPS when flying low over water, the VPS could be disabled.

The manual does not say it is unsafe to fly in ATTI mode.  Its recommendation is not to fly in ATTI mode, and land in a safe area if you find yourself in that situation.
With the P4 & P3 series ATTI mode is a selectable flight mode on the RC, so there is nothing specifically unsafe about it. Other than the pilot requires a different skillset than when flying in 'P Mode' or 'Sport Mode'.

And it made me smile a bit to read "What wrote in the manual is correct" :-)

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-6-21 03:10
The mavic air is quite safe to fly indoors, but in order to fly indoors, your environment needs to be safe to fly in, so first your location needs to be very well lit, you need proper textured floor covering for vision to lock on to
Your aircraft will hold its lock well in both GPS and OPTI, you said you own many drones so you should understand how all your modes work.
If you do all above then your aircraft won’t go to atti mode so you have nothing to worry about.

Spot on!   

I still find it unfortunate at least, if not ill advised, when drones are marketed as mainstream devices fit for everyone; almost like a "point and shoot" camera or a cell phone. The reality could not be further from the truth.

They are advanced, specialty gadgets that need training and experience to be operated properly.

Yet I cannot blame someone who gets the absolute opposite impression from the likes of Mavic's "See Everything" video...   



In my eye, this is no different than showing the girl with a welding torch and trying to sell everyone welding torches...Sad...

PS: Yeah I know, you have to find a way to make the welding torches run away (never to be found) every once in a while for the analogy to work, but I am sure you get my point...

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-6-21 03:10
The mavic air is quite safe to fly indoors, but in order to fly indoors, your environment needs to be safe to fly in, so first your location needs to be very well lit, you need proper textured floor covering for vision to lock on to
Your aircraft will hold its lock well in both GPS and OPTI, you said you own many drones so you should understand how all your modes work.
If you do all above then your aircraft won’t go to atti mode so you have nothing to worry about.

Very decent reply!

CemAygun Posted at 2018-6-21 03:45
I still find it unfortunate at least, if not ill advised, when drones are marketed as mainstream devices fit for everyone; almost like a "point and shoot" camera or a cell phone. The reality could not be further from the truth.

They are advanced, specialty gadgets that need training and experience to be operated properly.

Don't blame a company for doing some marketing.
We are no stupid customers right?
At least I don't believe what all these companies are trying to sell me with their stories.
Common sense?
Now they should not lie of course, but if some shampoo company tells you you get the best volume in your hair....
Do you believe that?
So if DJI tells you it is super easy to fly (which all recent DJI drones are), I expect the drone to be easy to fly, BUT with this investment, I also invest a bit further and read the manual + look out for common user errors online so I know what I have to do.
We are able to think for ourselves right?

CemAygun Posted at 2018-6-21 03:45
I still find it unfortunate at least, if not ill advised, when drones are marketed as mainstream devices fit for everyone; almost like a "point and shoot" camera or a cell phone. The reality could not be further from the truth.

They are advanced, specialty gadgets that need training and experience to be operated properly.

I believe most people can’t work everything on their mobile phone, but with a bit of help and research they learn more and more everyday.
My Father has a very old Nokia phone nothing no camera, he can send text and make calls that’s about it, he tried new phones but found them way to complicated, yet he has an amazing understanding of how drones operate and always keen to fly and learn about drones. So just because you can’t use a phone doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t be able to fly a drone, and as for point and shoot camera same can be said here.
Take your time to learn as much or as little as you need to fly, this hobby is like any other more learn the more you will get from it.

CemAygun Posted at 2018-6-21 03:45
I still find it unfortunate at least, if not ill advised, when drones are marketed as mainstream devices fit for everyone; almost like a "point and shoot" camera or a cell phone. The reality could not be further from the truth.

They are advanced, specialty gadgets that need training and experience to be operated properly.

I believe most people can’t work everything on their mobile phone, but with a bit of help and research they learn more and more everyday.
My Father has a very old Nokia phone nothing no camera, he can send text and make calls that’s about it, he tried new phones but found them way to complicated, yet he has an amazing understanding of how drones operate and always keen to fly and learn about drones. So just because you can’t use a phone doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t be able to fly a drone, and as for point and shoot camera same can be said here.
Take your time to learn as much or as little as you need to fly, this hobby is like any other more learn the more you will get from it.

Absolutely my point, flying a drone needs attention, time and effort (and absolutely some talent if you really want to do it the right way) I personally would have been proud if I was a good drone pilot.

This is why it is kind of hard for me to understand why all the experienced pilots here are so comfortable with the derogatory "no skill required" marketing approach...

Well, I have so many hours of flying ahead of me to get even close to you guys... Maybe I will comprehend one day

So.  as it's been said.  The answer is No.  The Mavic Air is not a fraud.  I, unlike many here, did not get my start on RC planes and such.  So I do not know how to actually fly a craft.  People always ask me, is it hard to fly that thing?  My standard response is "I don't know.  I'm not flying it.  I'm only steering it.  It's flying itself.  If I have to fly it, it's probably coming down." I read the manual.  I know that for a beginner, atti mode is basically a crash waiting to happen.  I read that you shouldn't fly over reflective surfaces because the Vision system is affected.  That doesn't mean that I don't fly over water.  It means that I accept the risk that I as the remote pilot need to be aware that the onboard systems are not responsible for keeping it out of the water.  I am responsible for keeping it out of the water.
I am taking the advice of Bill B and getting a quad with no GPS just to up my skill.  

Having learned a great deal in this world in the last few months, it does give me pause when I watch the commercials that seem to market them to EVERYBODY.  However,  unless you're rich, just have thousands to throw away, you quickly figure out that these are not just toys.  They are high end products and need to be treated as such.  Which means you can't just take it out of the box and fly.  It means that you have to go beyond the fluff that the marketing department puts on TV/Internet.  It means you have to take it seriously, or you're going to be angry when you crash and support says, "but if you look here, it says don't do that."

I am not a DJI employee, and I won't pretend that I agree with everything they do.  But I also am not going to blame them for every little thing that happens.  If I am aware of the risks, and take them, then I'm responsible for the outcome.  If I am not aware of the risks or I just don't read the manual, then I'm just an irresponsible pilot.   

Marketing is designed to sell a product - not define the ease of use of the product - that is what the manual enclosed with the drone is for. I did my research, watched the tutorials and read-up - never had any training and yet to crash. I take all marketing with a pinch of salt.  

A CW Posted at 2018-6-21 05:21
Marketing is designed to sell a product - not define the ease of use of the product - that is what the manual enclosed with the drone is for. I did my research, watched the tutorials and read-up - never had any training and yet to crash. I take all marketing with a pinch of salt.

I was shocked last time I had a Coca Cola I didn't end up skinny, on the beach, and surrounded by attractive young ladies like they have in the commercials....

Haha, but seriously, I personally would never take $400 to $1000 cash and throw it up in the air.  So I won't do the same with anything I purchase with that same cash before understanding how it works and what the risks are of doing so....

KlooGee Posted at 2018-6-21 05:26
I was shocked last time I had a Coca Cola I didn't end up skinny, on the beach, and surrounded by attractive young ladies like they have in the commercials....

Haha, but seriously, I personally would never take $400 to $1000 cash and throw it up in the air.  So I won't do the same with anything I purchase with that same cash before understanding how it works and what the risks are of doing so....

And why does my BMW not disappear too when I drive it over a lake? Damn marketing

Common sense dictates that you would at least look beyond the marketing.

A CW Posted at 2018-6-21 05:21
Marketing is designed to sell a product - not define the ease of use of the product - that is what the manual enclosed with the drone is for. I did my research, watched the tutorials and read-up - never had any training and yet to crash. I take all marketing with a pinch of salt.

I always download the user manual first, before I buy any product I even do it for the simplest things. In the end, that is one place a company has to tell the truth...

So I knew (roughly) what I was getting into even before I paid for my MA.

Not everybody does as we do...

I crashed my Mavic. Thanks Obama!

CemAygun Posted at 2018-6-21 05:39
I always download the user manual first, before I buy any product  I even do it for the simplest things. In the end, that is one place a company has to tell the truth...

So I knew (roughly) what I was getting into even before I paid for my MA.

I know that But that is the responsibility of the buyer - DJI's marketing is not illegal and is no different to other companies.

3-D Posted at 2018-6-21 05:04
So.  as it's been said.  The answer is No.  The Mavic Air is not a fraud.  I, unlike many here, did not get my start on RC planes and such.  So I do not know how to actually fly a craft.  People always ask me, is it hard to fly that thing?  My standard response is "I don't know.  I'm not flying it.  I'm only steering it.  It's flying itself.  If I have to fly it, it's probably coming down." I read the manual.  I know that for a beginner, atti mode is basically a crash waiting to happen.  I read that you shouldn't fly over reflective surfaces because the Vision system is affected.  That doesn't mean that I don't fly over water.  It means that I accept the risk that I as the remote pilot need to be aware that the onboard systems are not responsible for keeping it out of the water.  I am responsible for keeping it out of the water.
I am taking the advice of Bill B and getting a quad with no GPS just to up my skill.  

"I am taking the advice of Bill B and getting a quad with no GPS just to up my skill.  "
Since .0400 FW, my MA sometimes acts like it doesn't have GPS, so I'm upping my skill as I go.  ;-)

WayneMHK Posted at 2018-6-21 05:42
"I am taking the advice of Bill B and getting a quad with no GPS just to up my skill.  "
Since .0400 FW, my MA sometimes acts like it doesn't have GPS, so I'm upping my skill as I go.  ;-)

Hahhahahaha Kudos

A CW Posted at 2018-6-21 05:41
I know that  But that is the responsibility of the buyer - DJI's marketing is not illegal and is no different to other companies.

That I have to agree upon as well... Honestly the only bit that bothers me is that every so often they (unknowingly) encourage and enable some people that can come up with a magnificent way to screw up droning for everyone.  Then comes the restrictions, bans etc. etc.

But probably this is the only way the market can propagate...

CemAygun Posted at 2018-6-21 05:59
That I have to agree upon as well... Honestly the only bit that bothers me is that every so often they (unknowingly) encourage and enable some people that can come up with a magnificent way to screw up droning for everyone.  Then comes the restrictions, bans etc. etc.

But probably this is the only way the market can propagate...

That is true - there will be a few out there that will say 'but it did that on TV'

WayneMHK Posted at 2018-6-21 05:42
"I am taking the advice of Bill B and getting a quad with no GPS just to up my skill.  "
Since .0400 FW, my MA sometimes acts like it doesn't have GPS, so I'm upping my skill as I go.  ;-)

Well played.  
Well played indeed.

I fly mine often over water and it never enters atti mode. GPS always stays on and object detection is fully functional. I have even flown as low as a couple of feet over still water, also with no problems.

CemAygun Posted at 2018-6-21 05:59
That I have to agree upon as well... Honestly the only bit that bothers me is that every so often they (unknowingly) encourage and enable some people that can come up with a magnificent way to screw up droning for everyone.  Then comes the restrictions, bans etc. etc.

But probably this is the only way the market can propagate...

This is true.  and to be honest, that propagation is how I came to find this world.  A colleague at work brought his spark into the office one day.  He introduced me to the 'prosumer' drone world.  Before that, i only knew of the little toys.  I had seen the Phantoms, but they were just "that thing that pro photogs use to get the really high shot" I had no idea of the capability.  After meeting the spark for the first time, i was hooked, and went all in.  after 5 months of research and decision making and video watching, I bought the air, and then found this forum.  Now I feel like I've found "my people"

The key points to take from this are;

If the drone enters ATTI mode
Do not fly closely about water

What this means is if you've been flying in GPS and it falls back to ATTI then something has gone wrong, so land
Don't skim the surface of water, if you're that close to the surface then the vision sensors will be engaged at which point you could get unwanted readings and then crash.

Flying indoors in ATTI is fine as there are very few external influences indoors that would affect the drone e.g. wind that would blow it off course if you're on ATTI outside.

spend most of my filming over water , its fine just gain experience with it and you be fine.

Bill B Posted at 2018-6-21 01:19
The quad flies just fine in ATTI mode. The thing is YOU need to KNOW how to fly. It really is that simple. Most of us have cut our teeth flying RC Helicopters, planes, and quads that have no automatic position hold features in them. Todays pilots simply can't figure out how to fly with out all the training wheels. Having flown rc planes and helis for 20+ years it is no big deal to fly in atti mode. Get yourself a quad with no GPS like the blade QX  (small micro version) learn to fly it. Get use to it coming toward you and the proper stick response to correct its flight. You'll find this a much more enjoyable way to fly, and gain skills that will pay off when your GPS or vision sensors quit working. Most of the reported, so called FLYAWAYS that I read on here are simply pilots that can't pilot. Not all of them mind you. but a vast majority of them. What DJI means here with their explanation of ATTI mode is that the quad is not going to stay in one spot while in ATTI mode. The reason for that is it is not locked on a GPS colum for position. it will drift slightly. THIS is where you come in as the PILOT. You need to correct the quads position by stick inputs to keep it where YOU want it. Don't let the MAvic Air fly you, YOU fly it. "tell" it where to be in space with your stick inputs. All this can only be learned by practice on one with no GPS on the quad. Hope this helps.

Good info for some pilots mate.As an older person that used to and sometimes still does fly my old 3D choppers I find flying my old P3A in "ATTI" mode is fun. I wish I could flip a switch and fly in "ATTI" mode with my MPP....

DINGO DOWN UNDA Posted at 2018-6-21 12:08
Good info for some pilots mate.As an older person that used to and sometimes still does fly my old 3D choppers I find flying my old P3A in "ATTI" mode is fun. I wish I could flip a switch and fly in "ATTI" mode with my MPP....

Same here dingo. I just returned from our local AMA flying field. I really cherish the old men there that have taught me so much about flying. We had a blast tonight. Didn't fly my Mavic air or Pro,Just my super sportster nitro powered 40 plank. I have to tell you there are some guys there that could fly a lawn mower. Love it.

3-D Posted at 2018-6-21 05:04
So.  as it's been said.  The answer is No.  The Mavic Air is not a fraud.  I, unlike many here, did not get my start on RC planes and such.  So I do not know how to actually fly a craft.  People always ask me, is it hard to fly that thing?  My standard response is "I don't know.  I'm not flying it.  I'm only steering it.  It's flying itself.  If I have to fly it, it's probably coming down." I read the manual.  I know that for a beginner, atti mode is basically a crash waiting to happen.  I read that you shouldn't fly over reflective surfaces because the Vision system is affected.  That doesn't mean that I don't fly over water.  It means that I accept the risk that I as the remote pilot need to be aware that the onboard systems are not responsible for keeping it out of the water.  I am responsible for keeping it out of the water.
I am taking the advice of Bill B and getting a quad with no GPS just to up my skill.  

Do it 3D! once you get a quad with just a stabilization board and no GPS, you'll have a blast. Tell ya what if you have a spektrum radio. (blade) I'll  send you a Nano qx quad from blade for free. Just PM me and we'll sort it out. Unfortunately I don't have a spare radio to give you.

-Bill

I would say DJI drones hardly are a fraud. When you take the drone population as a whole and compare their capabilities to any previous generation hobby grade technology, you realize droning has reached a high level. Now take DJI drones in contrast to the competition and you realize in 2018 that the Mavic Air, while it has certain limitations, is a highly sophisticated piece of technology. Whether you want to call the Mavic Air a fraud is your own right since it's your hard earned money, but be reasonable and realistic.