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Sayhelloforme
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I’m just wondering how far can the  average person with 2020 vision see a p3p ? Is there anything we can do to  enhance visibility to the pilot  to  increase range legally  ?
According to the rule below it seems to me a spotter cannot be used under recreational certifications   
If you're flying in the US, the aircraft must be flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft. That means (1) the aircraft must be visible at all times to the operator; (2) that the operator must use his or her own natural vision to observe the aircraft; and (3) people other than the operator may not be used in lieu of the operator for maintaining visual line of sight. Under the criteria above, visual line of sight would mean that the operator has an unobstructed view of the model aircraft. To ensure that the operator has the best view of the aircraft, the statutory requirement would preclude the use of vision-enhancing devices, such as binoculars, night vision goggles, powered vision magnifying devices, and goggles designed to provide a “first-person view” from the model.

The only way to legally fly with a spotter is if you have a Section 333 Exemption, a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization (COA), are flying commercially under FAA Part 107, or you're flying indoors (which is not regulated by the FAA).

So , how can we  increase visibility  ?
Thanks
2018-7-7
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Bashy
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Please allow me to bring your attention to this thread....

https://forum.dji.com/thread-150854-1-1.html
2018-7-7
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DINGO DOWN UNDA
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I have put some nice little strobe lights under the rear arms of my MPP which help a lot for LOS. Im the first to admit sometimes I do lose sight of the Mavic just by having the quick glance at the tablet...not much you can do about it. I think a bit of common sense in flying these drones goes a long way as to being able to see it all the time depending on where you are in regard to flying over  people or buildings etc etc.
2018-7-7
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RedHotPoker
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Yes, I’m using Lume Cubes on my Phantom 3 Pro’...

http://www.lumecube.com/164.html

Diminutive in stature, but are super bright.


RedHotPoker


2018-7-7
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solentlife
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VLOS is a variable in fact.

Atmospheric conditions, sunny or grey day, night / day ... etc.

Plus as I understand from my involvement in Latvian LARPAS (member of the EU bodies putting together UAV rules) - use of LED's / Strobes and other additions comes under the heading of "vision-enhancing devices" and are not accepted to increase the LEGAL definition of VLOS. That in itself is also open to debate - and is why actual stated range is now being put forward in EU. This would remove the questionable aspect of determining lawful range use.

For my own practical observation - some days its hard to see my P3P at 100 - 200m ... other days I can see a dot out at 600m ....

Nigel
2018-7-7
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RedHotPoker
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With my Lume Cubes blinking, on one of their several strobe modes, my drone is still easily visible a few kilometres away.

Without an eye strain. Just there twinkling away... and without twink. Hahaha


RedHotPoker
2018-7-8
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solentlife
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For those who have difficulty understanding the rules about VLOS ... its not just a matter of seeing a light or a dot in the distance ... its actually about being able to ORIENTATE as well ... to be able to determine BY VISUAL UNAIDED SIGHT or DEVICE the attitude and direction the UAV is actually facing ...

We are not talking about moving the stick and watching which way the light moves ... we are talking about actually being able to discern UAV's orientation by its shape / attitude ... its shape and attitude as an out of box standard UAV ... THAT is how the guidelines look upon the UAV.
The subject drives us nuts I have to admit when trying to define the guidelines and is what eventually brought about the discussion of actual quoted range distance to try and remove the variable factors.

The upshot is : you can add all the strobes and gizmos you like - but at end of day - they are Enhancements that do not change the rules of VLOS - do not give you added distance in those rules.

Nigel
2018-7-8
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RedHotPoker
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Those strict rules, laws, bylaws, don't mean crap to me...

Because www.ercha.ca doesn’t care either... nor does www.maac.ca
& so why should I?

Flying in on and around private land. No laws, no loss...

As far as orientation, I have coloured filters that attach to my Lume Cubes magnetically. So yes, I know where Left Right and Center of my drone are situated, at all times...

Next?? Hahaha


RedHotPoker




2018-7-8
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solentlife
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RHP - believe it or not ... there is International Discussion on this matter.

At present countries are implementing what they feel is necessary or prudent for their environment. But they are slowly moving together.

It does not change the fact of INTERPRETATION of the term VLOS ... which some seem to consider can be anything THEY wish it to be. It is a recognised International term, used by all Civil Aviation Authorities the world over. If it was interpreted differently by any - that would lead to chaos.

Same as IAS  etc.

Plus the 'I don't care attitude' is precisely why the guidelines leading to rules are being put in place. To provide the Legal Framework for idiots to be prosecuted.

Nigel
2018-7-8
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RedHotPoker
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solentlife Posted at 2018-7-8 01:28
RHP - believe it or not ... there is International Discussion on this matter.

At present countries are implementing what they feel is necessary or prudent for their environment. But they are slowly moving together.

Who’s the idiot here, really.

You want to debate whether I need VLOS on private property. Haha

Come get me authorities. Arrest and convict. Hahaha, my lawyers laugh as much I do.
& I do... laugh a lot. Hahaha


Who cares what I do in Alberta, from Latvia?

Nobody, not you, that’s for sure, so why the discussion?

Anyways, I did my good deeds for the day, befriending our fellow comrades at arms... tisk tisk


It’s 3:34 am here.  Bedtime.

If you are still talking (rambling on) about VLOS restrictions later today,, we can debate this until the sun goes down again.
Or you could join a flying club, where privacy is the order of the field. Those rules ar thrown out the window...figuratively. No littering, or loitering please? Ha

Good night Nigel.


RedHotPoker
2018-7-8
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solentlife
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The thread has two aspects :

How far can you see an object.

How far is VLOS in terms of rules.

The two are not the same and RHP - I am not only one who has tried to educate you on this. The 'other' thread for the P4 has tried also.

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse.

The only idiot I can think of here - is the one who claims they are above the law and can do what they please.

I have explained why VLOS is not as far as you can see ... but is actually the distance you can still fly controlled without need for external additions / enhancements. The Lume Cubes - albeit good items - are in the category of 'external additions / enhancements' and do not absolve you of abiding by the rules of VLOS.

Yes - sleep on it RHP .. you definitely need rest. Tomorrow you can wake up and post another ridiculous comment.

To anyone who may get caught and dragged in front of Judiciary ... claiming RHP's info will not help you one iota .. in fact might just condemn you more !!

RHP ... or should that be RIP ?

Nigel
2018-7-8
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Mark The Droner
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solentlife - can you provide ANY links, ANY references, or anything else to back up anything you have said in any of your last three posts?  

Thanks
2018-7-8
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solentlife
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EASA for a start ...

plus you have already had quoted by others the excerpts from PDF files from FAA and various ...

The usual tactic of those who cannot disprove - is to then ask for proof of statement.

Instead of my wasting time delving through reams of archive material - why not find data to disprove my statement ?

The other factor of course is that Hobbyists love to think of themselves as a breed apart ... but CAA / FAA and other authorities regard us as using the airspace same as any other user - that means terminology is specific and not for personal interpretation. VLOS is as stated.

Nigel
2018-7-8
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Mark The Droner
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These threads have come up quite a few times over the years, and nobody has ever come up with any hard facts regarding VLOS.  In other words, no conclusion has ever been made in any of these threads over the years.  Obviously it's complicated since the pilots participating in the thread are from various countries.  I am from the USA, so I'm seeing this from the FAA's perspective.  Opinions don't count.  Where is the hard evidence?  Where are the facts?  

I have looked a number of times and I have never found an FAA definition for VLOS.  That is, until now.  This morning I searched for key words "VLOS" and "definition" within the faa.gov site specifically but not the faa.gov/uas area of the site specifically.  For the first time ever, I am seeing a definition which seems to be legit and seems to make sense.  This was apparently published in February 2017.  

Visual Line of Sight (VLOS). Means that any flightcrew member (i.e., remote PIC, the person manipulating the controls, and visual observer, if used) is capable of seeing the aircraft with vision unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, spectacles or contact lenses in order to know the UA’s location, determine the UA’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight, observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards, and determine that the UA does not endanger the life or property of another.

Clearly, this is a document from the faa site, but it's not in the faa.gov/uas area of the site which is probably one reason it's so hard to find.  Click on the below link and see the url.
  
https://tinyurl.com/ya3fl2u2

So the next question is, who is fsims?  I've never heard of it.  So I googled it.  I found these documents, both from the FAA site:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8900.1.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/ ... /2007/inFO07019.pdf

...so it appears to me that the document's origin and its definition for VLOS are legitimate.  

So, reading the definition, the key words seem to be attitude, altitude, and direction.  Note that the word "orientation" is missing.  

Of the three words above, the word that might be more important in terms of distance, is the word attitude.  Attitude is the tilt of the AC.  For example, if the AC is moving away from the UAS pilot and making a bank turn to the right, the right side will tilt down, and the left side will tilt up.  Can the UAS pilot see this attitude?  If the answer is yes, great.  But if it's a tiny dot in the distance, can the pilot see this attitude?  I would say no.  Probably not.  

So there's the argument that a tiny dot doesn't qualify for VLOS in the USA.  






2018-7-8
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solentlife
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Thank you for saving me the job ... Mark.

I know my posts will not be 100% confirmed by it - I'm sure someone will claim that. But having sat for hours in discussions over this and other items for UAV's in LARPAS ... we are always invited as Authorised by Latvian CAA to advise them and participate in EU directives on UAV operations - I can tell you the definitions drive you nuts !! and they get disected ... expanded out to get clear intent.
And as said - the docs of FAA .. UK CAA .... UK BMFA (as a body respected by UK CAA to advise and organise Uk modelling) as example are all read and used to try and find the middle reasonable road.

I am only trying to help people understand items as this ... I know for some - its not what they want to hear, but that's life. But don't shoot the Piano Player because hes not playing your favourite tune. NOT directed at you Mark !!

Nigel
2018-7-8
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Sayhelloforme
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Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-7-8 06:08
These threads have come up quite a few times over the years, and nobody has ever come up with any hard facts regarding VLOS.  In other words, no conclusion has ever been made in any of these threads over the years.  Obviously it's complicated since the pilots participating in the thread are from various countries.  I am from the USA, so I'm seeing this from the FAA's perspective.  Opinions don't count.  Where is the hard evidence?  Where are the facts?  

I have looked a number of times and I have never found an FAA definition for VLOS.  That is, until now.  This morning I searched for key words "VLOS" and "definition" within the faa.gov site specifically but not the faa.gov/uas area of the site specifically.  For the first time ever, I am seeing a definition which seems to be legit and seems to make sense.  This was apparently published in February 2017.  

Wow Mark, thanks for the info. So since  when they indicate visual means it sounds like they are talking about ground visual means binoculars telescopes and such  But with the info you provided,  strobes would be disqualified  ?
2018-7-8
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Mark The Droner
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Sayhelloforme Posted at 2018-7-8 10:07
Wow Mark, thanks for the info. So since  when they indicate visual means it sounds like they are talking about ground visual means binoculars telescopes and such  But with the info you provided,  strobes would be disqualified  ?

Hi - visual means your own eyes unaided except for glasses you might ordinarily wear on your face. No binoculars, etc.  You seem to be referring to strobes, that is, lights on the AC.  There is nothing I've ever seen that says strobes would be cheating.  The important thing is what you or your flight crew can see.  If a strobe allows you to add distance, and stay within the definition of VLOS, that's a good thing.  :-)  
2018-7-8
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solentlife
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This is where it all falls apart ... as the guidelines and subsequent rules that get applied - often when you read them - initially seem specific - but when looked at closely - can still contain many 'holes'. You then get Joe Public interpreting and it gets worse.

Use of strobes / enhancements to the AC to aid keeping it in sight  - this may surprise you given my posts already - are a good addition. But it still does not relieve you of the technical visual rulings.

Its not a matter of 'disqualified' ... legal ... or not ... its a matter of interpretation of the rules. I would not be surprised if evidence was of a Law Officer accepting strobes in visual ... while another may discount them and uphold the letter of the law. Like many things in life - when it comes to it - individual interpretation can affect outcome.

For the purpose of actual interpretation though - its as posted previous .... how it is then acted upon is your choice and any Law Officer / Authority to decide in any action.

its technical point. Lets be honest - vast majority i would say are breaking the Drone Rules more often than they care to  admit ... in range / height and location. Despite my membership of the LARPAS Committee - I admit to 'bending the rules' ...... to deny it would be wrong.

Nigel
2018-7-8
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solentlife
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Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-7-8 10:21
Hi - visual means your own eyes unaided except for glasses you might ordinarily wear on your face. No binoculars, etc.  You seem to be referring to strobes, that is, lights on the AC.  There is nothing I've ever seen that says strobes would be cheating.  The important thing is what you or your flight crew can see.  If a strobe allows you to add distance, and stay within the definition of VLOS, that's a good thing.  :-)

I think guy missed out a word ... as i think he accepted binoculars / visual aids were 'out' .. I think his post was to ask about the strobes and similar enhancements fitted to the AC.

Nigel
2018-7-8
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Mark The Droner
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One other thing - I've never heard of anybody being fined for flying out of VLOS.  Maybe it'll happen some day.  
2018-7-8
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solentlife
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Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-7-8 10:29
One other thing - I've never heard of anybody being fined for flying out of VLOS.  Maybe it'll happen some day.

I cannot quote the actual persons ... not allowed to ... but I can say that approach has been made to various flyers I know for flying outside the parameters allowed in rules ..... Latvian Authorities were made aware when the people posted videos of their flights.

Not only for range and being obviously out of VLOS ... but there have been cases where videos posted of flying in town over busy streets ... looping round main highway bridges into city .... flying round TV tower .... flight inside Airport approach airspace ...  They have all had the long arm of the Law tap the flyers on the shoulder and be warned not to do it again.

If they had been prosecuted - I would then be free to publish names ...
Will someone be prosecuted for flying out of VLOS ? Who knows ... but way things are shaping up with regard to the rules .. I would not be surprised if someone is showcased trial. Particularly USA I reckon ... sorry guys ... but USA seems to knee-jerk on this stuff worse than most.

Nigel
2018-7-8
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Sayhelloforme
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solentlife Posted at 2018-7-8 10:28
I think guy missed out a word ... as i think he accepted binoculars / visual aids were 'out' .. I think his post was to ask about the strobes and similar enhancements fitted to the AC.

Nigel

I’m not sure if you were  referring to me  .... I was not saying  binoculars were excepted under the rules   I was saying ground based  enhancements were not allowed like binoculars, telescopes and even the screen that we see a first person view. All of this is ground based so strob lights could be an  acceptable means of enhancement under the rules of FAA.  Of course eyeglasses and contacts would be   Acceptable  To correct vision to  2020   Are you in  Europe  ?  Thanks for your input in this conversation   
2018-7-8
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Sayhelloforme
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Mark The Droner Posted at 2018-7-8 10:29
One other thing - I've never heard of anybody being fined for flying out of VLOS.  Maybe it'll happen some day.

Mark,
Considering attitude and the use of a strob light, I’m not sure if I could see a tilt to the AC. But extra precaution is always a good thing   
2018-7-8
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Sayhelloforme
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DINGO DOWN UNDA Posted at 2018-7-7 22:59
I have put some nice little strobe lights under the rear arms of my MPP which help a lot for LOS. Im the first to admit sometimes I do lose sight of the Mavic just by having the quick glance at the tablet...not much you can do about it. I think a bit of common sense in flying these drones goes a long way as to being able to see it all the time depending on where you are in regard to flying over  people or buildings etc etc.

Dingo Down and RHP,
Since you’re familiar with strobes let me ask you how did it affect the ability to video and take photos ?  I guess you would be able to time your photos in between the two second flash  but does it  effect the quality of video  ? Durning the day time flights and even the Twilight flights ? Thanks again for all your input !!
2018-7-8
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RedHotPoker
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Sayhelloforme Posted at 2018-7-8 19:46
Dingo Down and RHP,
Since you’re familiar with strobes let me ask you how did it affect the ability to video and take photos ?  I guess you would be able to time your photos in between the two second flash  but does it  effect the quality of video  ? Durning the day time flights and even the Twilight flights ? Thanks again for all your input !!

I wouldn’t take pics that mattered in strobe mode. But during the day, the strobe modes aren’t even noticeable. They are situated just far enough back not to matter.

But they enhance photography, by illuminating the subject with great light.

You might wish to visit the Lume Cube galleries, for inspiration and seeing the professionalism they help present.
https://www.lumecube.com/photo-gallery/

https://www.lumecube.com/video-gallery/


Hope that helps you make acquisition of your own pair, with mounts...


RedHotPoker

2018-7-8
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solentlife
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Sayhelloforme Posted at 2018-7-8 13:08
I’m not sure if you were  referring to me  .... I was not saying  binoculars were excepted under the rules   I was saying ground based  enhancements were not allowed like binoculars, telescopes and even the screen that we see a first person view. All of this is ground based so strob lights could be an  acceptable means of enhancement under the rules of FAA.  Of course eyeglasses and contacts would be   Acceptable  To correct vision to  2020   Are you in  Europe  ?  Thanks for your input in this conversation

I understood what you posted ... I was just commenting to Mark - because I got impression he thought you meant binoculars etc.

No worries ... yes I'm in EU....

Nigel
2018-7-9
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solentlife
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Uldis in our club fitted strobes to his P3A pointing down and angled -  was flying in our Summer Camp last year. It was evening and light was failing ... we have lighted models we fly for fun then. He switched on the strobes and spent the next 2 weeks rebuilding his P3A. He forgot about the VPS system and the act of switching them on - threw the VPS into crazy mode .. resulting in a crash.

I mention this sorry tale - to just advise that please take care to fit correctly and be aware of the effects it may have on systems on the AC.

Nigel
2018-7-9
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embayweather
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I tried an experiment the other day based on the topic of this thread. I sent the  aircraft to various distances without watching it get there. Clearly, I ad first checked to see it was safe and I had an observer with me watching as well. I then looked up to try and find the aircraft int he sky. Following the craft with my eyes I could manage around 1400 ft, not following it I could only get to around a third of that distance where I could see my craft quickly and easily. In essence whilst great distances are possible with visual observations if they constantly track the craft but much less so if you are not. Perhaps a distraction takes your view away from the craft and suddenly it becomes hunt the Phantom. Also at those great distances I could not be sure that the craft was pointing in a particular direction, nor of course its relation to other objects that might have been there. Try picking an object, say a large boulder, and that is some distance away, then try and fly directly over it. It becomes very difficult in very short distances.
For me at least I believe that long distances are not safe to fly, and I will not do it, certainly when I fly solo. Perhaps I am getting old and my eyesight is failing. Either way for me I know how far I will go.
2018-7-9
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RMJovo
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I have a bright orange P4P+ and have no problem keeping  it in sight at 2000ft at 120ft Altitude  even when sky is overcast.
2018-7-9
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solentlife
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embayweather has highlighted something that I think is relevant but I don't think was in Rule writers minds.

Spatial awareness and depth perception. I know that as a model flyer for nigh on 55yrs ... my spatial awareness and depth perception has deteriorated significantly. I used to fly competitions in UK years ago ... placed 8th in Southern UK Scale Comp was my best !! (Nieuport 28 WW1 Biplane) ... but anyway - I could land a model on a spot literally. Today ? I'm lucky if I hit the runway ... I get all lined up and think I'm dead centreline ... to find I'm metres away to the side ...

I'm also finding that guessing distance is not so easy anymore... I can guess a room / length of wood etc. well ... but anything more than 100m or so and I'm not so good anymore. Sign of age.

On the subject of following the AC as it flies out vs looking away and then trying to find it - had that a number of times. Even close in - it can be a pain to see it sometimes.

Nigel
2018-7-9
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DINGO DOWN UNDA
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Sayhelloforme Posted at 2018-7-8 19:46
Dingo Down and RHP,
Since you’re familiar with strobes let me ask you how did it affect the ability to video and take photos ?  I guess you would be able to time your photos in between the two second flash  but does it  effect the quality of video  ? Durning the day time flights and even the Twilight flights ? Thanks again for all your input !!

My two little strobes are underneath the rear folding arms on my MPP so as with RHP does not effect photo/video quality. In Australia we are restricted to only flying during the day though I suppose up to sunset would be OK...no night flying allowed.
2018-7-9
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