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Search & Rescue Application
1438 34 2018-9-2
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tsouthern
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Flight distance : 40240 ft
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Received my Phantom Two months ago and absolutely love it. Have had none of the problems I have been reading about. Anyway have been working with utilization of the Phantom Pro 4 in Search and Rescue applications. So far we have lifted a 100' 1/4" poly rope weighing 2.6 lbs for 16 minutes. I am impressed. This is a really good unit, but looking to find its limitations. Trials for the "claw" will be the next issue.

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2018-9-2
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RedHotPoker
Captain
Flight distance : 165105 ft
Canada
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How will the rope be dropped?


RedHotPoker
2018-9-2
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Geebax
Captain
Australia
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Lifting a load like that off-centre is asking for trouble. Take a look at how helicopters attach their loads.
2018-9-2
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tsouthern
lvl.1
Flight distance : 40240 ft
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The load is attached by the "Fli Fli" electric release. The loads are checked for weight and flight characteristics when the drone is off the ground. Having 42 years in helicopters I am pretty well versed in center of gravity and such. Did a lot of low level stuff before taking up higher. The Phantom 4 handles this small weight very well and corrects in small gusts better than I expected. As I said this is all application research. The rope bundle attached is a 100 ft coil of 1/4 inch poly rope. It weighs 2.6 lbs. I understood the drone was capable of lifting 3 lbs. Anyway we will see what it can really do.
2018-9-2
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Geebax
Captain
Australia
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tsouthern Posted at 2018-9-2 16:33
The load is attached by the "Fli Fli" electric release. The loads are checked for weight and flight characteristics when the drone is off the ground. Having 42 years in helicopters I am pretty well versed in center of gravity and such. Did a lot of low level stuff before taking up higher. The Phantom 4 handles this small weight very well and corrects in small gusts better than I expected. As I said this is all application research. The rope bundle attached is a 100 ft coil of 1/4 inch poly rope. It weighs 2.6 lbs. I understood the drone was capable of lifting 3 lbs. Anyway we will see what it can really do.

OK, if you know about centre of gravity, why employ a hitch that is off-centre? It makes the motors on that side work a lot harder than they need to in relation to the motors on the otrher side. Aerodynamically, this is a very bad idea. Especially with an aircraft that is not designed to carry an external load.
2018-9-2
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Nebuchadnezzar
Captain
Flight distance : 3428747 ft
Spain
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Hi tsouthern !  Are there specific applications for search and rescue?
2018-9-3
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Nigel_
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Flight distance : 388642 ft
United Kingdom
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tsouthern Posted at 2018-9-2 16:33
The load is attached by the "Fli Fli" electric release. The loads are checked for weight and flight characteristics when the drone is off the ground. Having 42 years in helicopters I am pretty well versed in center of gravity and such. Did a lot of low level stuff before taking up higher. The Phantom 4 handles this small weight very well and corrects in small gusts better than I expected. As I said this is all application research. The rope bundle attached is a 100 ft coil of 1/4 inch poly rope. It weighs 2.6 lbs. I understood the drone was capable of lifting 3 lbs. Anyway we will see what it can really do.

You should also check that it is not blocking the ultrasonic sensors since if it sees something 0ft below and thinks that it is the ground then it can turn the motors off mid air.  Would be better to mount it at the front, away from the downward ultrasonic and vision sensors and use a thin wire for the first metre or two.
2018-9-3
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Rvrrat14
First Officer
Flight distance : 655932 ft
United States
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I use a small roll of twine on a spool........Get the lighter load over and then pull the larger one......Just a thought.  Less stress; less drain on power, etc.
2018-9-3
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tsouthern
lvl.1
Flight distance : 40240 ft
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Rvrrat14 that was my first idea but found the "Fli-Fli" unit on the net. It mounts on the rear of the landing gear and is clear of the sensors. The electric hook I know is not centered under the aircraft but it is working pretty good. Looking at making another mount which will use the hook but center it under the aircraft.

The applications for search and rescue are whatever the imagination can conquer. The Phantom 4 handles extremely well even with an off center load. In S&R you are ,ore concerned with getting the mission done then worry about any over working of the drone parts. Couple of saves by life guards getting floatation to troubled swimmers. Lifting an AED to paramedics on hill side or down in a wash. Dropping strobes to lost souls in the woods at night. IR camera finds lost souls in woods at night or out in open water. The applications go on and on. If you are a techy like me, just let your imagination go and work the problem. The utilization of drone tech is exciting just have fun with it and in the process you can help folks.
2018-9-3
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solentlife
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Flight distance : 1087530 ft
Latvia
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I applaud the sentiment and idea ..... but IMHO a Phantom is not serious gear for such work. There are far better larger machines out there designed with such in mind.

I am also reminded of the amateur idiots that have grounded Emergency Services during serious incidents by flying their 'drones' near and in the situation locations.

If officially sanctioned S&R work - then fine. But I really do feel more serious gear is order of the day. 2.6lb may sound a lot ...

Sorry but that's my view on it.

Nigel
2018-9-3
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tsouthern
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Flight distance : 40240 ft
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solentlife Posted at 2018-9-3 07:53
I applaud the sentiment and idea ..... but IMHO a Phantom is not serious gear for such work. There are far better larger machines out there designed with such in mind.

I am also reminded of the amateur idiots that have grounded Emergency Services during serious incidents by flying their 'drones' near and in the situation locations.

There is a drone which we are trying to purchase that is larger and has all the specs we were looking for. But as always it is funding. You get what you can afford until you can get what you want. You take what you have and make do. You take what you have an exploit it to its max in order to achieve as much as you can. Does that answer your question ?
2018-9-3
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solentlife
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Latvia
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tsouthern Posted at 2018-9-3 08:23
There is a drone which we are trying to purchase that is larger and has all the specs we were looking for. But as always it is funding. You get what you can afford until you can get what you want. You take what you have and make do. You take what you have an exploit it to its max in order to achieve as much as you can. Does that answer your question ?

No question by me in fact ... I was expressing an opinion.

If you are serious about getting proper gear to do the job AND getting proper authorisation / agreement with Emergency Services - then fine ...

But if its amateur and without proper agreement - then sorry my view is contrary.

There are already too many instances of drone owners thinking they can solve the Search and Rescue theme ... and have in fact had to be ordered away from scenes by the Emergency Services to let the real people do the job.

yes I know there have been odd cases of good work by amateur drone 'helpers' - but they are far outweighed by the bad instances.

Again - this is not a question ... it is my PoV ...

Nigel
2018-9-3
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tsouthern
lvl.1
Flight distance : 40240 ft
United States
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solentlife Posted at 2018-9-3 10:24
No question by me in fact ... I was expressing an opinion.

If you are serious about getting proper gear to do the job AND getting proper authorisation / agreement with Emergency Services - then fine ...

Sorry to sound quick, I posted this to see what other folks were doing. Did not know this was a blog for amateurs. POV
2018-9-3
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rwynant V1
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Flight distance : 4842277 ft
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Any SAR person that comes on site, will check in with Incident Command.

If rope, or a flotation device, or first aid kit  needs to be brought to first responders, or the victim......and the Helo is still on the ground 20 miles away..... a Phantom 4 Pro with this rig can be airborne in 3 min or less.

Time is life.  Amateur or Pro,  if you are there and have the skill set.....and you are authorized by Incident Command/ FAA......Fly Baby FLY!!

Does anyone here know how long it takes to set up an S800, or S1000, or Matrice whatever??  ( I'm ignoring the cost )

There is some great info in here.  


Randy
2018-9-3
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solentlife
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Flight distance : 1087530 ft
Latvia
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Time is life.  Amateur or Pro,  if you are there and have the skill set.....and you are authorized by Incident Command/ FAA......Fly Baby FLY!!


Absolutely no argument with that .... if my posts are read correctly - I have repeatedly said - IF in agreement and sanctioned by the Emergency Services.

My reason for other part of my posts is that it is a common view made by hobby grade drone owners that they can be S&R providers ... and there are plenty of examples where they have proven to be a PITA to services. Examples of fire fighting craft grounded due to some idiot thinking he's Mister Marvel with his drone ...

When local Fire services were rescuing my 3D plane from the tree .. I chatted about drone use ... and they were quite plain about it ... forget it ...  



nigel
2018-9-3
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Manxmann
Captain
Flight distance : 1178793 ft
Australia
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Cheaper than running a helicopter that's for sure .......... But limited !
2018-9-4
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solentlife
Captain
Flight distance : 1087530 ft
Latvia
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This guy periodically practices next to my house ... my garden leads down to the river where he picks up water supply for fire-bombing ...





I get a free show all day when he's doing it ...

Now think on this ...

When he's flying - you can easily have many other helis as well as they are all manned and visually aware.

I spoke with the Pilot at the Airshow I was the Model Flying organiser for ... and he was adamant that any drone would cause grounding of all heli's. They would not risk flying in same location as an UAV - unless control of the UAV was in THEIR hands. He recited a few instances where it was impossible to see the drone or to anticipate its action.....

Of course that's one services viewpoint and valid. There are other events that a small drone could be a lifesaver - no denying, but I still believe that majority of cases - the drone should stay away. UNLESS sanctioned and agreed with Site Commander in charge of the incident AND that all parties are aware of the drone flight.
The amount of thought, planning and experience that goes into S&R far outweighs a few months flying a Phantom !! Planning out a grid search pattern for example is not just a zig-zag across a field !!

Sorry - that's my opinion.

Nigel
2018-9-4
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Alvaro L
lvl.4
Flight distance : 8832 ft
Spain
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news ... nd-drone-himalayas/

And won't be the last one. For finding missing people in a known area, a drone makes much more sense than an helicopter.
2018-9-4
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Bashy
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Flight distance : 2354357 ft
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United Kingdom
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Solentlife, i think  many of the instances you are referring to are not actual SaR but joe blogs wanting shots of the emergency in action and just simply, getting in the way of the real emergency services.
2018-9-4
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Nigel_
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Flight distance : 388642 ft
United Kingdom
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Alvaro L Posted at 2018-9-4 13:24
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news ... nd-drone-himalayas/

And won't be the last one. For finding missing people in a known area, a drone makes much more sense than an helicopter.


Indeed, our local police force has 1 helicopter, and 30 drones, even when a helicopter could do a better job it tends to be the drones that do the work because they are available in the back of the search and rescue cars and are far cheaper to use, and often the drones are the better tool anyway.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/d ... e-officers-1647418#

(That is a good zoom lens they have!)
2018-9-4
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solentlife
Captain
Flight distance : 1087530 ft
Latvia
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Bashy Posted at 2018-9-4 20:10
Solentlife, i think  many of the instances you are referring to are not actual SaR but joe blogs wanting shots of the emergency in action and just simply, getting in the way of the real emergency services.

I agree that the number of events that Drones have interfered with have mainly been where the idiot wants to get a video or shot ... BUT there have been events where SAR has been attempted and they been told to "**** off" .... seriously.

Nigel
2018-9-5
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solentlife
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Latvia
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-9-4 23:29
Indeed, our local police force has 1 helicopter, and 30 drones, even when a helicopter could do a better job it tends to be the drones that do the work because they are available in the back of the search and rescue cars and are far cheaper to use, and often the drones are the better tool anyway.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/drone-video-shows-police-officers-1647418#

As I said ... OFFICIALLY sanctioned .... authorised. And as I had already agreed that done properly of course no argument. But that's the cruncher ...

It is not first time this topic has come up on various forums by some clown who gets a Phantom and thinks he's Mister Marvel to solve SAR ...

Sorry but first post here states clearly : Received my Phantom two months ago .......

Nigel
2018-9-5
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HarleyGuy55
Second Officer
Flight distance : 1159409 ft
United States
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-9-3 01:21
You should also check that it is not blocking the ultrasonic sensors since if it sees something 0ft below and thinks that it is the ground then it can turn the motors off mid air.  Would be better to mount it at the front, away from the downward ultrasonic and vision sensors and use a thin wire for the first metre or two.

Very nice Nigel ! Perfect type of input ! Nice !
2018-9-5
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HarleyGuy55
Second Officer
Flight distance : 1159409 ft
United States
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I watched a video of a guy holding 5 pounds so your 2.6 i would think is easy! and i thank you doing your part in making things safe and properly getting permissions from the proper people ! And i agree if i am auth, to do S&R i too would use any and all available drones/planes or whatever it took to help . Its just a shame that any S&R service even has to think about the cost for said equipment in order to save lives. our/your government should flip the bill. we all pay taxes for some reason. !   
2018-9-5
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Hellsgate
Captain
Flight distance : 1991555 ft
Australia
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tsouthern Posted at 2018-9-3 12:22
Sorry to sound quick, I posted this to see what other folks were doing. Did not know this was a blog for amateurs. POV

I also use my p4p for search and rescue work.
We dont use the flifli system because of the offset to one side issues.

We decided to custom build a load dropping mechanism from scratch that diesnt interfere with any sensors but keeps the load evenly balanced.
Why did we do this? The answer is simple .... wind with an offset load the motors above the load are working harder than the opposite motors when you start working in strong winds you need the drone to be evenly balanced so that it doesnt need to over compensate on those two motors thus putting more strain on them and the esc that drives them.
This is a simple safety issue that we addressed early on when we started using drones for fire fighting and search and rescue.
We lift everything from uhf radios, medical kits, water bottles, torches, and ropes with my drone. Our next purchase will be a thermal camera.
2018-9-5
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Hellsgate
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Flight distance : 1991555 ft
Australia
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With my latest purchase of the mavic pro i can now keep a drone in the air virtually 24/7 if needed.
In the search role the mavic pro has become our main drone because of its zoom capability..
If we need to lift anything then we use the p4p to do the job whilst the mavic keeps overwatch from above.
2018-9-5
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Hellsgate
Captain
Flight distance : 1991555 ft
Australia
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Just to add to this as well.
Anybody flying s & r here in aus must first be a licenced operator and secondly be trained in search and rescue techniques.
The incident commander has no say in whether a drone can be used or not he can only request the use of drones. Once the use of drones is approved by head office then the incident commander is responsible for that drone and where it can or cannot fly.
I as a pilot of said drones have absolutely no authority to take off at an incident untill proper authorizations have been given, and i have no say in were i want to fly or even the direction it is facing i become under the direct control of the incident commander. He has a large monitor that he can view a live feed from the drone on and he tells me what he wants the drone to do.
2018-9-5
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solentlife
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Flight distance : 1087530 ft
Latvia
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Hellsgate Posted at 2018-9-5 04:18
I also use my p4p for search and rescue work.
We dont use the flifli system because of the offset to one side issues.

You have my 1001% admiration and support as I assume it is in full support and agreement with services.

I never said it was not worthwhile .............. what I was posting about were the imbecilic owners of Drones who have actually created worse situations than they resolved.

I am trying to make drone owners aware that it takes more than a Phantom ownership and a few flights to be suitable for SAR ....

ITS A SERIOUS BUSINESS FOR **** SAKE !

Nigel
2018-9-5
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Mark Weiss
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United States
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Hellsgate Posted at 2018-9-5 04:18
I also use my p4p for search and rescue work.
We dont use the flifli system because of the offset to one side issues.

Would like to hear more details about the custom load dropping system.
2018-9-5
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Hellsgate
Captain
Flight distance : 1991555 ft
Australia
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solentlife Posted at 2018-9-5 07:22
You have my 1001% admiration and support as I assume it is in full support and agreement with services.

I never said it was not worthwhile .............. what I was posting about were the imbecilic owners of Drones who have actually created worse situations than they resolved.

Yes i am a member of our local fire brigade.
When idiots put drones up to photograph or video an incident we get grounded for up to 3 hours.That includes all aerial fire fighting appliances a drone becomes classified as such.
We are not permited to fly untill the area is deemed safe to do so again, i have been grounded on a number of ocasions due to idiots launching drones to film the action.

2018-9-5
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Nebuchadnezzar
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Flight distance : 3428747 ft
Spain
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rwynant V1 Posted at 2018-9-3 20:15
Any SAR person that comes on site, will check in with Incident Command.

If rope, or a flotation device, or first aid kit  needs to be brought to first responders, or the victim......and the Helo is still on the ground 20 miles away..... a Phantom 4 Pro with this rig can be airborne in 3 min or less.

Very Informative Video !!
2018-9-5
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Hellsgate
Captain
Flight distance : 1991555 ft
Australia
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Hellsgate Posted at 2018-9-5 13:14
Yes i am a member of our local fire brigade.
When idiots put drones up to photograph or video an incident we get grounded for up to 3 hours.That includes all aerial fire fighting appliances a drone becomes classified as such.
We are not permited to fly untill the area is deemed safe to do so again, i have been grounded on a number of ocasions due to idiots launching drones to film the action.

Our load dropper was very easily made we simply purchased a servo load release device on line then with a little electronics knowledge i made up a very simple pulse circuit using a 555 timer that is activated by one of the front led on the drone. Press c2 load drops.
It hangs from the centre of the drone from a modified gimbal guard that doesn't effect the sensors.
The complete setup cost around $60aus.
We are currently looking at getting an inspire but due to its size it is not really suitable for search n rescue for us, we have a lot of thick bush around us and having the smaller drones means we can drop below the tree line to look under the canopy having a larger drone limits its capability to do this.
Usually we work in conjunction with ses and police. If the drone finds something i simply turn on the esc beeps this allerts people on the ground to go and have a physical look.
For fire fighting we use the drones as an aerial spotter and to drop incendiary bombs in thick bush to start back burns were this task can be extremely dangerous for people on the ground.
2018-9-5
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Bashy
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Flight distance : 2354357 ft
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United Kingdom
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Cant you just balance the offset by having the wire/string/rope routed through a central plate and turn off vps should be off anyway when dangling anything less then 10m from the ac, granted, there will still be a little off balance by the weight of the flifli but thats neither here nor there
2018-9-5
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SAR Adam
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United States
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I am a State Certified SAR member in my county.  I am the Communications Team Lead as well as part of the Ground team, Equine Team and Overhead.  Our county got the drone bug when a neighboring county came in to help with a difficult to reach waterfall.  I privately purchased a Phantom 4pro+ because I know the county will struggle with funding.  I will have my part 107 license in a few weeks.

I would love to know if there is a group for SAR Drone users, especially DJI drones.  I would like to be able to take survey flights in areas that we are likely to have missions based on history during times of the year where the tree cover will be reduced.  it would be great to be able to bring those into SARTOPO.COM as an overlay.  

does anyone know if the photos are geo tagged?
2018-9-7
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rwynant V1
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does anyone know if the photos are geo tagged?

Yes,  EXIF Data is listed in the "Details" of the Photo File

Randy
2018-9-7
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