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Intentionally Degraded GPS Environment. Its real.
467 32 2018-12-11
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Dumbthumbs
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Have any of you experienced a degraded GPS environment?

Quoting AOPA associate editor Dan Namowitz "The increase in intentional GPS interference exercises by the Defense  Department spans both numbers and locations. In 2017, Duke said, there  were 138 notices issued for GPS interference events. In 2018 to date,  there have been more than 170. The tests, which were mostly conducted in  the western states but have recently expanded eastward, are lasting  longer as the military blocks GPS to test equipment and personnel in  exercises in a technologically “degraded environment.”
The more the civil aviation system becomes tied to GPS-based navigation,  the more national security requires “degrading” GPS signals to prepare  the military to meet new threats.
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-me ... ampaign=181211drone


2018-12-11
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solentlife
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Interruption / degrading of GPS is a regular item especially when war-games / exercises are being conducted.

As the GPS system (USA based) is made up of two separate systems .... one for us mere mortals and the other for the Military .... its only us who suffer !

When I lived in UK - it was quite often to have locations 'blacked' out - its actually amazing how small an area they can block ... leaving surrounding areas clear.

The areas to be disrupted are promulgated in Shipping Notices to Mariners (NM) and also Air Navigation Notices (ie Notams) ... (amend title for National name)
As regards Civil Aviation ... GPS is only part of the Nav systems .... it may be of interest to note that Concorde NEVER had GPS fitted ..... (my Father was 'involved' in Concorde as in many other aviation matters ... as Chief Flight Ops for UK CAA).

Nigel
2018-12-11
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RedHotPoker
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Most crazy RC model’rs have no gps, “we” just fly by the seat of our pants. Haha

Practice flying in ATTI mode....

Ah, better yet,

Buy a flight SIM like http://realflight.com and learn the basics of RC flight, without all the gadgets, and SAFE tech.

Practice crashing, before you crawl.


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2018-12-11
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solentlife Posted at 12-11 10:08
Interruption / degrading of GPS is a regular item especially when war-games / exercises are being conducted.

As the GPS system (USA based) is made up of two separate systems .... one for us mere mortals and the other for the Military .... its only us who suffer !

Thanks, Nigel. Sounds like you know whereof you speak. Might be a good idea to check the NOTAMS before flying a complex autonomous mission.
2018-12-11
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RedHotPoker Posted at 12-11 10:54
Most crazy RC model’rs have no gps, “we” just fly by the seat of our pants. Haha

Practice flying in ATTI mode....

I'll go along with that. Its the source of my nick.
Fly the bird back to you without getting dumbthumbs.
2018-12-11
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Dumbthumbs Posted at 12-11 11:00
I'll go along with that. Its the source of my nick.
Fly the bird back to you without getting dumbthumbs.

Most multi rotors have no camera feed back to the pilot either.
It’s all fluffy, cushioned fun. Fly any other drone that doesn’t contain the stability Gear on-board.
Learn to fly, period.  When a system fails, the drone flys away, and the pilot blames the company, not his lack of skills or finesse.

“I pressed RTH several times, but it never came home.” Scenarios. . .

So you’re an RC thumber, not a stick pincher? ;-)

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2018-12-11
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RedHotPoker Posted at 12-11 11:18
Most multi rotors have no camera feed back to the pilot either.
It’s all fluffy, cushioned fun. Fly any other drone that doesn’t contain the stability Gear on-board.
Learn to fly, period.  When a system fails, the drone flys away, and the pilot blames the company, not his lack of skills or finesse.

I just recently learned the 'stick pinch' method. I started with a cheap non-GPS drone. My goal was to get it to hover in a light breeze. I flew it 'til a motor burned up and it crashed into the garden wall. Time for an upgrade. Yep, I've been spoiled by GPS.
2018-12-11
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solentlife
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For a economic sim ... Clearview .....

But anyway ... I have various quads from the simple WLtoys up to the DJI P3P ..... and an FPV 450 ...

I used to do reviews for various such as "Eachine" .... got too keep them as well !!  Many people sneer at the cheap 'toy' quads - but they actually are good at teaching flight control in not having GPS etc.

As to GPS and other navigation matters ... it was my career before I crossed over to Petrochemical's .... I still today run GPS and navigation Forums primarily for yachting ....

Nigel
2018-12-11
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Dumbthumbs Posted at 12-11 11:54
I just recently learned the 'stick pinch' method. I started with a cheap non-GPS drone. My goal was to get it to hover in a light breeze. I flew it 'til a motor burned up and it crashed into the garden wall. Time for an upgrade. Yep, I've been spoiled by GPS.

I’m thinking a preference, for thumbs on my rc sticks, stems from video game controllers.

The flat topped sticks didn’t allow us to pinch.

These are nice gimbal stick additions..
9BA13CA6-CAF0-42A7-9B48-307F9A2FE117.jpeg 05CABA13-56E1-4D38-9AB5-49AEA8C174CC.jpeg


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2018-12-11
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solentlife Posted at 12-11 12:04
For a economic sim ... Clearview .....

But anyway ... I have various quads from the simple WLtoys up to the DJI P3P ..... and an FPV 450 ...

This summer I flew the cheap quad nearly every morning around daybreak and found quite by accident that the bats HATE drones. I flew it back and forth in front of the hangar chasing the little devils off. Good non-GPS practice.
Now I suppose some animal rights activists will whine about that.
2018-12-11
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RedHotPoker Posted at 12-11 12:38
I’m thinking a preference, for thumbs on my rc sticks, stems from video game controllers.

The flat topped sticks didn’t allow us to pinch.

Fancy-schmancy! Are you flying those?
2018-12-11
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Dumbthumbs Posted at 12-11 13:02
Fancy-schmancy! Are you flying those?

No, not yet, but I want to add them to my Spektrum DX6 and DX8 radios.

Some radios don’t need them... E3E14D68-4C29-4C74-A454-B9D305E2A662.jpeg


8B54DF33-DC3A-4786-A0AC-9C5FF86EB008.jpeg


010043A6-08FB-491F-9FD6-F2422363AD81.jpeg


Haha...






RedHotPoker


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RedHotPoker Posted at 12-11 15:05
No, not yet, but I want to add them to my Spektrum DX6 and DX8 radios.

Some radios don’t need them...[view_image]

2018-12-12
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solentlife
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Funny that I swap thumbs for pinch depending on what I'm doing at the time ... but I do insist on a neck strap ! When I forget it - I hate it !!

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2018-12-12
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solentlife Posted at 12-12 04:10
Funny that I swap thumbs for pinch depending on what I'm doing at the time ... but I do insist on a neck strap ! When I forget it - I hate it !!

Nigel

I'll post my RC stabilizer solution soon. Neck strap optional.
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You don’t like the Onesy? Haha

7E150516-54D7-49E2-B4ED-CD78C778CB95.jpeg

Better control, all around. Haha




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Dumbthumbs Posted at 12-12 04:28
I'll post my RC stabilizer solution soon. Neck strap optional.

The DJI neck harness is quite nice. Very comfortable, once you learn how to adjust and wear it properly.


This guy makes me laugh.




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2018-12-12
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Dumbthumbs Posted at 12-11 10:57
Thanks, Nigel. Sounds like you know whereof you speak. Might be a good idea to check the NOTAMS before flying a complex autonomous mission.

I have wondered that. What would Litchi do if your drone lost signal while on a waypoint mission and suddenly GPS was lost.
2018-12-12
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fansb1fe1104 Posted at 12-12 10:53
I have wondered that. What would Litchi do if your drone lost signal while on a waypoint mission and suddenly GPS was lost.

Darn good question. Would it hold altitude and drift with the wind until the battery went south?
2018-12-12
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Litchi does warn that certain functions do not have a RTH catch-all ... and if GPS is lost to the AC - then all bets off I reckon.

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2018-12-12
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I have Tx trays ... all sorts of straps .... but my best is from a Trade show where we were all given neck straps with our ID cards in ... I have literally a drawful of these from all the 'events' I get asked to attend ... simple neck strap with clip ... its shorter than most and suits me perfectly. I admit that I hate harness style straps ... reminds me of some of the 'war-zone' jobs !

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2018-12-12
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I use a harness, i cannot stand  my neck being pulled down with the weight from the controller and a 9.7 incher, my harness is the exact same as the DJI one in the video above but its not DJI and prob cost about 300 quid less lol As for  the GPS, shouldnt have these issues when  Galileo is goes live,  You guys should be able to use it to, although, may need a HW change, not sure to be honest....
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Bashy Posted at 12-12 20:42
I use a harness, i cannot stand  my neck being pulled down with the weight from the controller and a 9.7 incher, my harness is the exact same as the DJI one in the video above but its not DJI and prob cost about 300 quid less lol  As for  the GPS, shouldnt have these issues when  Galileo is goes live,  You guys should be able to use it to, although, may need a HW change, not sure to be honest....

Out of curiosity I looked up the Galileo system. Common access accuracy to one meter, subscribers (commercial) down to one centimeter! Wikipedia posted the frequencies. I confess my ignorance as to compatibility. Nigel seems to be our resident GPS guy. Maybe he knows.
2018-12-13
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Thanks for the Vote ... but honest - I am not the expert on it ... just a professional user as well as civilian.

Galileo ..... don't pin your hopes on it. Already it has been plagued with problems - not least the insistence of a certain country to have general control. Add to that - the decision to exclude UK from its most serious part - that will have repercussions that are only now being realised.

It will take a FW update to initiate Galileo use on any of our units - and looking at the time-line so far ...... I reckon my P3P will be well worn out before Galileo is fully operational.

Another item is operational command. Galileo originally was to be a system wholly under EU control and not subject to USA directives to switch off or disrupt. That fact has been long discarded and EU were very quiet about the agreement they made with USA to switch off on USA demand ... WITHOUT a reciprocal arrangement for USA to switch off on EU request !!
You are better off looking to Glonass !!

Note that UK is now discussing taking all its 'know-how' it was using for Galileo and possibly producing a UK only SatNav system. The advantage is that much of the development and techno was UK and that leads UK into a reasonable position to create own system.

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2018-12-13
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solentlife Posted at 12-13 09:21
Thanks for the Vote ... but honest - I am not the expert on it ... just a professional user as well as civilian.

Galileo ..... don't pin your hopes on it. Already it has been plagued with problems - not least the insistence of a certain country to have general control. Add to that - the decision to exclude UK from its most serious part - that will have repercussions that are only now being realised.

I'm reading about the troubled finance history of the Galileo system. I can understand the UK wanting its own constellation.

This, too: In September 2007 the US Department of Defense announced that newer GPS satellites would not be capable of implementing Selective Availability. The wave of Block IIF satellites launched in 2009, and all subsequent GPS satellites, are stated not to support SA.

I don't believe that for a second.
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Dumbthumbs Posted at 12-13 14:03
I'm reading about the troubled finance history of the Galileo system. I can understand the UK wanting its own constellation.

This, too: In September 2007 the US Department of Defense announced that newer GPS satellites would not be capable of implementing Selective Availability. The wave of Block IIF satellites launched in 2009, and all subsequent GPS satellites, are stated not to support SA.

Have a look at their website, very informative as to what is happening.

Galileo Website
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solentlife Posted at 12-13 09:21
Thanks for the Vote ... but honest - I am not the expert on it ... just a professional user as well as civilian.

Galileo ..... don't pin your hopes on it. Already it has been plagued with problems - not least the insistence of a certain country to have general control. Add to that - the decision to exclude UK from its most serious part - that will have repercussions that are only now being realised.

Thanks for the info, i cannot concentrate for too long and get bored very quickly with technical BS lol i am peed that the UK forked out a lot of money only to be discarded with regards to any further say although it is understandable i spose, As for the UK doing their own, by all accounts, theres no bandwidth left is there? sommat like that anyway...
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Bashy Posted at 12-13 19:40
Thanks for the info, i cannot concentrate for too long and get bored very quickly with technical BS lol i am peed that the UK forked out a lot of money only to be discarded with regards to any further say although it is understandable i spose, As for the UK doing their own, by all accounts, theres no bandwidth left is there? sommat like that anyway...

Yup. That's a lot of money for Swiss MASER clocks that fail in orbit.
Couldn't a system be made frequency-agile and 'borrow' other frequencies?
2018-12-14
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Bandwidth is not a problem as Rcvrs listen for a code string and if data is corrupted - makes little difference as within micro secs - its getting a new string.

There's a lot of Hissy-Fits with Galileo where basically one country is trying to dictate to all the others - even though they are not the largest financial investor. Whether its right for UK to be excluded from the Military and Security part of Galileo is a highly debatable issue based on Brexit. My honest opinion is that Galileo will now suffer extended time before full operations - IF it ever gets there ... more cost over-runs ... and of course they will have to find a way to replace the UK's input which was significant - as UK is a leading manufacturer and designer of Satellites and equipment with not only large part of Galileo - but also with NASA etc.

I forgot earlier to comment on the 'sales BS' ...... NO Satnav system has cm accuracy ...

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solentlife Posted at 12-14 05:43
Bandwidth is not a problem as Rcvrs listen for a code string and if data is corrupted - makes little difference as within micro secs - its getting a new string.

There's a lot of Hissy-Fits with Galileo where basically one country is trying to dictate to all the others - even though they are not the largest financial investor. Whether its right for UK to be excluded from the Military and Security part of Galileo is a highly debatable issue based on Brexit. My honest opinion is that Galileo will now suffer extended time before full operations - IF it ever gets there ... more cost over-runs ... and of course they will have to find a way to replace the UK's input which was significant - as UK is a leading manufacturer and designer of Satellites and equipment with not only large part of Galileo - but also with NASA etc.

This is what i was trying to refer to

"Bleddyn Bowen, an expert in space policy at Leicester University, told Sky News that the entire spectrum of useable radio frequencies has been shared out between the countries, with no spare capacity."
2018-12-14
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Bashy Posted at 12-14 20:58
This is what i was trying to refer to

"Bleddyn Bowen, an expert in space policy at Leicester University, told Sky News that the entire spectrum of useable radio frequencies has been shared out between the countries, with no spare capacity."

OK .. there are two aspects to bandwidth and frequencies :

1. Yes all bandwidths / frequencies are allocated out to specific duties / functions. The full list can be accessed from the Swiss based Radio Comms site.

2. Not all slots are actually used even though allocated.

There is of course another aspect that we can thank Heddi Lamarr for .... frequency hopping - which allows multiple Tx's to work the same bandwidth / frequency without shooting down each other ... witness the revolution in 2.4 and 5.8Ghz RC / WiFi etc.

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2018-12-15
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Thats correct, not all are used, and that right there is where the issue will lay, it will be then down to each user (country) to then give up their slots for the UK to use, will they do this, not blooming likely lol although, if the boot was on the other foot, i am sure the UK would, we are and have been, too nice for our own good......
2018-12-15
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Bashy - not necessary ........

With todays tech and frequency hopping / data coding ID's etc. - it is now a revolution in RF comms.

Anyway - if UK was to go ahead - which I hope they do .. UK applies to the International Radio body and is allocated its slots. Nothing about anyone giving up slots ... that's old style ...

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2018-12-16
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