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DJI - time to come up with a worldwide pilot certification course
409 39 2018-12-13
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Mike-the-cat
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DJI -
I'm sure you've thought of this but its time to have a worldwide, comprehensive pilot education and certification course.
Some of us who have flown responsibly for years are being threatened by irresponsible pilots
We are reaching the point where regulators might just issue blanket bans. Weekend flyers looking for a cheap thrill will just walk away but what about the rest of us who have been flying responsibly?

I hope other long time pilots chime in on this.




2018-12-13
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DJI Gamora
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Hi Mike-the-cat, thank you for bringing this query to us. I understand that some are not responsible enough in flying their aircraft and this is duly noted when longtime pilots have been observing precautionary measures. I will forward this concern to the proper department and let's see what we can do about this with proper expectations that there is no guarantee that this will be implemented. Again we thank you for your sharing your thoughts with this. Appreciate your support.
2018-12-14
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M2Wair
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Its a great idea, would take approval from all aviation authorities.
2018-12-14
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DeuceDriv3r
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I don't see DJI doing it per-se as they would take on liability if giving you some kind of 'certification' and rules .. especially worldwide change too quickly.

I can see them expanding the already 'required safety test' they do in the GO 4 app to fully activate your profile and expanding that a bit to also .. and in my mind more appropriately include mandatory training for the DJI product itself..

many of the issues we see on this site daily are people that quite frankly don't RTFM and go out and their drone is not under their control with settings that are not setup for the drone to do what they think it will do.

Here DJI, since its their product. would be better able to make the content of the training relevant and correct

As for mandatory 'REGULATORY' training.. I can assure you that within 2-5 years our community will look nothing like today.

anything but 'toys' without GPS and weighing less that 200-250 grams will require a certification process that will look much more like the requirement of a standard pilots license in their respective country.

2018-12-14
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Woe
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it would probably look a lot like the 107 cert.
2018-12-14
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HedgeTrimmer
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DeuceDriv3r Posted at 12-14 05:45
I don't see DJI doing it per-se as they would take on liability if giving you some kind of 'certification' and rules .. especially worldwide change too quickly.

I can see them expanding the already 'required safety test' they do in the GO 4 app to fully activate your profile and expanding that a bit to also .. and in my mind more appropriately include mandatory training for the DJI product itself..

You know what they say...
When they Outlaw drones, only Outlaws will have drones.

Cause same people criminally flying and causing problems, will either not give a hoot about drones being outlawed or will go to great lengths to continue flying for purpose of tweaking noses of those who outlawed drones.
2018-12-14
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Woe Posted at 12-14 06:21
it would probably look a lot like the 107 cert.

the 107 is a joke and it doesn't cover the fact that many pilots flying drones don't read the manuals, don't understand flight controllers, GPS, automation and their inherent issues and limitations...

2018-12-14
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Mike-the-cat
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DeuceDriv3r Posted at 12-14 05:45
I don't see DJI doing it per-se as they would take on liability if giving you some kind of 'certification' and rules .. especially worldwide change too quickly.

I can see them expanding the already 'required safety test' they do in the GO 4 app to fully activate your profile and expanding that a bit to also .. and in my mind more appropriately include mandatory training for the DJI product itself..

I largely agree with your post.

DJI is not stupid and they know far more about the flying habits of people in different countries than we could ever imagine. The reason I suggested they pull the trigger now is that they are the biggest consumer drone company in the world and their knowledge of flying habits, legal and illegal, will enable fact-based, balanced control of flying.

This is highly preferable to having individual countries setting up laws based on whim or misplaced beliefs. This latter trajectory is presently resulting in either overly restrictive or too liberal regulations that are confusing to even law abiding travelers.

The population of irresponsible, non-manual reading, flyers has grown to the point that they are no longer statistical noise that can be hidden in the background.

I know that some will say: easy to set laws but hard to enforce but I can also see the day that drone manufacturers will be forced to put in transponders and non-bypassable hardware locks to prevent take off without proper flight authorisation.

Hobbyists may swear all they want but they will either have to comply or pay fines or face jail.

Another feature DJI may want to think about is the increased ease with which this current generation of craft takes selfies. We are encouraging the very narcissistic behaviour that has resulted in selfie sticks being banned in an increasing number of countries. It might be only a matter of time before a flyer follows his /her drone off a cliff / bridge/ building.

All this may still be avoided if DJI takes action in time, followed by other manufacturers like Yuneec and Parrot.

C'mon DJI. You want to stay in the money don't you?
2018-12-14
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Mike-the-cat
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Woe Posted at 12-14 06:21
it would probably look a lot like the 107 cert.

107 is very fixed wing centric and the drone specific content while good from a safety perspective doesn't cover lots of things that a pilot should know about GPS, radio-control, RTH strategies, battery management which a responsible flyer needs to know..
2018-12-14
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Mike-the-cat
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DJI Gamora Posted at 12-14 03:17
Hi Mike-the-cat, thank you for bringing this query to us. I understand that some are not responsible enough in flying their aircraft and this is duly noted when longtime pilots have been observing precautionary measures. I will forward this concern to the proper department and let's see what we can do about this with proper expectations that there is no guarantee that this will be implemented. Again we thank you for your sharing your thoughts with this. Appreciate your support.

Thanks for responding....
2018-12-14
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Mike-the-cat
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M2Wair Posted at 12-14 04:13
Its a great idea, would take approval from all aviation authorities.

It will be challenging to get different authorities to agree to a common standard but who better to do it than the industry leader.
2018-12-14
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Woe
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-14 17:06
107 is very fixed wing centric and the drone specific content while good from a safety perspective doesn't cover lots of things that a pilot should know about GPS, radio-control, RTH strategies, battery management which a responsible flyer needs to know..

107 is for drone pilots not fixed wings
2018-12-14
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hallmark007
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Hi Mike, in Europe there has been much discussion around this and some progress.

Ideas which sound reasonable for flying and owning a drone.

An idea EASA are putting forward seems to me a good way to educate and prepare new users of drones to learn both to fly and a better understanding of the rules and safety.

It would require a newbie to take a small online test regarding safety and operations of his drone, on passing this test he can then fly his drone in a similar fashion to what we know as beginner mode, his drone would be locked from further operations until he sits a further more comprehensive test to unlock more power of his drone. He would then receive his license to fly as a drone hobbyists.

Those who are looking at professional drone and hoping to work in the industry, would then be asked to sit further tests as well as competency testing to receive a license to fly commercially.

I understand dji have approached a similar test before flying in the US, but from what I read it was very limited and from what I read initially drone users were up in arms about this, it was also introduced in the UK with little or no fuss, so go figure.

I do believe we will see similar system being applied to drones as they grow exponentially, I am of the view that this would be very helpful both to the drone community and general public.

I think to often we see many loosing there heads as a drone user does something stupid, but many times this is through ignorance not intentional , but something we all including manufacturers avaition associations etc , should all take some responsibility for.

Having sat through many seminars from my home association and EASA, one thing I have been moderately surprised about is the support from safety in avaition authorities and particularly EASA is the fact that they believe that getting drone users into line with rules that are not draconian but fair will give users much more freedom to fly drones, both commercially and as hobbyists.

There is way to much scaremongering out there regarding the use of drones, I also continually read here that rules of where and how we fly will become more restricted, I don’t believe in this attitude and I certainly don’t think avaition bodies believe this either, avaition is extremely welcoming to drone flying, simply because they are the experts in avaition safety they simply want to pass on their knowledge and experience to the drone community , and we should welcome this.

There is a huge world out there for flying drones and plenty of space to fly , I think the drone community should be respectful of the general community and not try to impose something they are both frightened of and ignorant of into their space with free abandon, they must also be made aware of their need for safety and privacy.
I read everyday here about Americans not being allowed to fly in public parks, but many hobbies are not allowed use public parks, would Americans be open to allowing every hobby access to public parks like dirt bikes for instance, I don’t think so and that’s one of many I can think off, if drones were allowed the freedom to fly around or close to heritage sites give the growth can you imagine the problem tourists and citizens might have on a Sunday afternoon when their visit to a protected heritage site was over run with hobbyists flying drones,for me and for my grandchildren I believe in the need to protect our national heritage for future generations.

Sorry for droning on (pardon the pun) but it is my belief from my experience that both education and proper rules particularly for safety will give all drone users much more freedom to Fly.
2018-12-15
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HereForTheBeer
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hallmark007 Posted at 12-15 05:00
Hi Mike, in Europe there has been much discussion around this and some progress.

Ideas which sound reasonable for flying and owning a drone.

Your logic is guilt until proven innocent?  Prove you can fly before unlock everything?  

No thanks, find some other systems to regulate..

We all want smarter pilots and more educated dpilots but forcing it down people's throats won't even work, it will just endup with same stupid people being stupid and finding ways around it either jailbreaking the drones or just buying a different drone that isn't grossly locked down and do what they originally intended.  


I personally think best solution is for DJI to not touch this.. maybe have a pop-up warning on creen says don't be stupid DJI isn't responsible  for dumb actions.   Then say they are not responsible for stupid people being stupid and remind everyone that they already offer industry leading safety features including dynamic NFZ systems and obstical aviodance if and when the media asks for their take on situation.   and job done.  
2018-12-15
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hallmark007
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HereForTheBeer Posted at 12-15 05:53
Your logic is guilt until proven innocent?  Prove you can fly before unlock everything?  

No thanks, find some other systems to regulate..

If you read what I wrote, you would see that I never said dji would be responsible for doing this, most new drone owners are first time users , so with the potential for both ignorance of the rules and ignorance of how your drone works, then I don’t see any problem in educating new users before they fly, you will see many come to this forum for help with both how to fly and how to fly safely.
There will will always be the dopes who want to jailbreak their drones, this is not intended for the idiots and fools, it’s intended for those who want to learn the rules and how to fly.
If you want to take another route then that’s up to you.

I don’t know about your country, but in mine you are not allowed to drive a car motorcycle etc unless you have an experience driver with you or until you pass a test, and that includes purchasing a car, you cannot purchase a car and drive it away on your own unless you have a license.

People who are stupid will always be stupid until they learn, but learning is not only for the stupid, there are many who wish to learn what is correct and right, so before you denounce all of these people for Not being stupid, think about the one person through his own ignorance and not enough information that goes out and flys his drone into a bunch of children causing bodily harm, and why because not enough information out there and he can just buy and fly.

It’s not that long ago that a baby lost his eye in the UK because of an ignorant user , maybe something like this can be avoided.

We’ve seen dji adopt NFZ on their aircraft and I believe the vast amount of users and those who would be in danger of breaching NFZ, are more than happy to have Geo and NFZ in their craft.
It seems that those who wish to ride without a saddle forget that most would prefer a saddle to ride with.
2018-12-15
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HereForTheBeer
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hallmark007 Posted at 12-15 06:27
If you read what I wrote, you would see that I never said dji would be responsible for doing this, most new drone owners are first time users , so with the potential for both ignorance of the rules and ignorance of how your drone works, then I don’t see any problem in educating new users before they fly, you will see many come to this forum for help with both how to fly and how to fly safely.
There will will always be the dopes who want to jailbreak their drones, this is not intended for the idiots and fools, it’s intended for those who want to learn the rules and how to fly.
If you want to take another route then that’s up to you.

vehicle analogy is bad because unlike a drones, cars weigh 1000s of pounds and can travel at 100+MPH and can be a lethal weapon. and requires some skill or at least some form of control to not just kill everyone around you because you dont know gas from brake or how much to turn the wheel..or something..


but back to main subject at hand, i agree we need smarter pilot but i dont wanna be limited and forced behind a wall where you got to prove you are smarter than the drone you want to fly.  the way i see it...stupid is as stupid does.. not much a test will do to stop daddy from blending their baby with their drone.  and i blame a lot of the BS on the media demonizing drones and everytime something happens involving a drone they basically come at us as a collective looking to cause chaos.. like i take zero effing responsibility for someone flying their drone into a jet engine or a helicopter rotor..doesn't represent me or this community... and i'm more of a rebel of this community than many other active members i fully admit i fly beyond line of sight and i fly almost exclusively live view and test the limits of myself and my drones.. but ya know what i never collided with a helicopter or a jet engine or crashed into someone's front window or turned my drone into a baby blender... im fairly certain that most everyone of us can say that those stupid people dont respresent our community..
2018-12-15
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hallmark007
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HereForTheBeer Posted at 12-15 07:16
vehicle analogy is bad because unlike a drones, cars weigh 1000s of pounds and can travel at 100+MPH and can be a lethal weapon. and requires some skill or at least some form of control to not just kill everyone around you because you dont know gas from brake or how much to turn the wheel..or something..

I think your mixing up the stupid people with the rest of us, there are many who want to learn. I have read so many who have crashed around here, saying they wished they had come here before they crashed it would have helped.

“I know nothing, because I know too much, and understand not nearly enough and never will.”
2018-12-15
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Mike-the-cat
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hallmark007 Posted at 12-15 05:00
Hi Mike, in Europe there has been much discussion around this and some progress.

Ideas which sound reasonable for flying and owning a drone.

Great post. Thanks!
2018-12-15
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Mike-the-cat
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HereForTheBeer Posted at 12-15 05:53
Your logic is guilt until proven innocent?  Prove you can fly before unlock everything?  

No thanks, find some other systems to regulate..

Generally, this approach works for things that don't have major safety impact. It will take a SINGLE event where a drone is implicated in an aviation accident to cause irrational panic globally and essentially shut the whole enterprise down for at least awhile.

I like your posts but this particular one is naive.

In an ideal world, people would learn from mistakes and self-regulate and many do. But this is a matter of statistical reasoning, not unlike the problem we have with global warming. One guy may be fine with infractions but when that number goes up to 10 million or more (for drones) and a couple of billion (for fossil fuel burners), there WILL be problems.

DJI knows all of this. They have engineering expertise, a huge data lake  and risk management experts.  Its just a matter of when the trigger is pulled.

2018-12-15
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Mike-the-cat
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Woe Posted at 12-14 19:47
107 is for drone pilots not fixed wings

Yes, I'm well aware. But the cause material has significant content that originated and is more relevant to FW operations. But that was 2 years ago, things may have changed.
2018-12-15
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I think this is a sensible suggestion. The bonus would be a qualification based on real expert knowledge, not the rubbish the UK will come up with.
2018-12-15
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HereForTheBeer
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-15 11:04
Generally, this approach works for things that don't have major safety impact. It will take a SINGLE event where a drone is implicated in an aviation accident to cause irrational panic globally and essentially shut the whole enterprise down for at least awhile.

I like your posts but this particular one is naive.

but making it so draconian wont stop someone at-least not here in america wouldn't even slow people down.  there are people that steal cars and drive without license and beat the living snot out of law enforcement, shoot up public areas or make bombs for events... all of which are very obviously very illegal and have huge penalties yet...still happens almost regularly

and what will happen if drone makers are forced to lock down aircraft or limit aircraft before passing a test then someone does that and decided brilliant idea to throw it into tail rotor of a chopper or something...? nothing stopping that from happening once they past the test, media will still think absolute sh*t of us as a community and demonize us beyond recognition all the same..

i think step 1 is to educate the media about drone, drone use and how easy and safe it can be.. because people's negative perception of these things comes from the media the news demonizing the every living sh*t out of drones and drone users..  step 2 would be to maybe have free/publically funded programs available all over the place anyone any age and skill can jump into with their drone and learn, get points, and certifications and maybe even connections for jobs with your drones.. step 3 is maybe offering discounts on new drones for certified pilots that taken those courses and can exchange points earned in free programs for discounts on new DJi drones and technology.

instead of forcing people's noses into the dirt and treating everyone like dogs cuz select few causing problems why not use positivity and educate the people who demonize these things and create the incorrect negative perception.
2018-12-15
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"Please, oh benevolent government, regulate me, compel me to complete a paid course or purchase a license, before allowing me to enjoy a drone."

No thanks...
2018-12-16
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Woe
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-15 11:13
Yes, I'm well aware. But the cause material has significant content that originated and is more relevant to FW operations. But that was 2 years ago, things may have changed.

If idiots keep flying regulations are going to get tougher and yes everyone will need
Some type of licensing.
2018-12-16
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Mike-the-cat
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Dirty Bird Posted at 12-16 05:11
"Please, oh benevolent government, regulate me, compel me to complete a paid course or purchase a license, before allowing me to enjoy a drone."

No thanks...

We know what some in the US of A think. There is the rest of the world to consider...
2018-12-16
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Mike-the-cat
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This is a more positive post... and DJI is featured
2018-12-16
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hallmark007 Posted at 12-15 05:00
Hi Mike, in Europe there has been much discussion around this and some progress.

Ideas which sound reasonable for flying and owning a drone.

A very good, well thought-out argument.
Norway has some pretty good and well-defined rules for drone operation - both professional and hobbyist: https://luftfartstilsynet.no/droner/
I see from the following article, that Norway (although not in the EU) is a contributing country to the common European rules:
https://luftfartstilsynet.no/om-oss/nyheter/2018/dronetrategi/

The government startegy for drones (https://www.regjeringen.no/no/ak ... pa-plass/id2594977/) speaks of a desire to increase drone usage and make the drone busieness grow in the country. There are already about 4000 professional and tens of thousands of hobby operators in Norway.


"We in  Norway are in a unique position. The combination of a lot of airspace, good infrastructure and high professional competence in Norwegian drone business, gives Norway the potential to become a pioneer in developing and using drone technology. The government wants to make it possible," said Solvik-Olsen.



Btw, looks like drone registration upon purchase (the same way as with mobile phones) is on the table, too.

All in all, the initiatives that I see point in the positive direction of making it safe and easy for all to use the drones.
2018-12-18
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Mike-the-cat
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BumblerBee Posted at 12-18 04:16
A very good, well thought-out argument.
Norway has some pretty good and well-defined rules for drone operation - both professional and hobbyist: https://luftfartstilsynet.no/droner/
I see from the following article, that Norway (although not in the EU) is a contributing country to the common European rules:

This is great stuff! Thanks for sharing. The material is even in multiple languages.
2018-12-20
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Mike-the-cat
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Dirty Bird Posted at 12-16 05:11
"Please, oh benevolent government, regulate me, compel me to complete a paid course or purchase a license, before allowing me to enjoy a drone."

No thanks...

I rest my case. I think flyers in the UK are going to get hit bad....
2018-12-20
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-20 01:49
I rest my case. I think flyers in the UK are going to get hit bad....

It only takes 1 idiot to ruin for the 500000 law-abiding drone pilots.

Having said that, that case is a criminal one. It could not have been a negligence or disregards for rules. Drones (especially the DJI ones) come with geofencing and no one would have been able to take off near an airport unless coming with a custom-built drone, in which case no amount of regulations would have helped. Same with cars - there will always be someone tempted to gun it down a street....
2018-12-20
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-20 01:49
I rest my case. I think flyers in the UK are going to get hit bad....

Hit bad for what reason?
2018-12-20
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-20 01:49
I rest my case. I think flyers in the UK are going to get hit bad....

I think what will likely come out of this is an acceleration of the process towards mandatory registration and simple test. If people want to break the laws then they will, regardless of what regulations are in place. In the longer term it may make things easier to police.
2018-12-20
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Aardvark Posted at 12-20 12:45
I think what will likely come out of this is an acceleration of the process towards mandatory registration and simple test. If people want to break the laws then they will, regardless of what regulations are in place. In the longer term it may make things easier to police.

According to CNN, this drone appears to be an 'industrial' one and the act a deliberate attempt to disrupt airport operations.

Shutting down an airport for 19h (so far) at a busy time a year is nasty. Hope they catch the perpetrator soon.
2018-12-20
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Mike-the-cat
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BumblerBee Posted at 12-20 02:59
It only takes 1 idiot to ruin for the 500000 law-abiding drone pilots.

Having said that, that case is a criminal one. It could not have been a negligence or disregards for rules. Drones (especially the DJI ones) come with geofencing and no one would have been able to take off near an airport unless coming with a custom-built drone, in which case no amount of regulations would have helped. Same with cars - there will always be someone tempted to gun it down a street....

You are right about the party having criminal intent... and according to CNN, it looks like it's a custom build.
2018-12-20
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-20 12:54
According to CNN, this drone appears to be an 'industrial' one and the act a deliberate attempt to disrupt airport operations.

Shutting down an airport for 19h (so far) at a busy time a year is nasty. Hope they catch the perpetrator soon.

The BBC live feed will likely give more up to date information than a foreign news channel :-)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-sussex-46564814
2018-12-20
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Dirty Bird Posted at 12-20 07:03
Hit bad for what reason?

The person doing this is a crook and/or someone intent on creating negative publicity for drones. Regardless, the many thousands inconvenienced at airports are not likely to be 'fair-minded' or rational about their experience and there will likely be at least a temporary backlash on flying in the UK and likely elsewhere.

I'm not pushing for more regulations. If anything, I'd like to maintain the freedom to fly but I feel there are enough non-flyers that shifting more of them to 'neutral' instead of 'hostile' by assurances (however incomplete they may be) will help flyers - hobbyists and professionals. This may hit business and convenience a little initially but in the long run, will likely assure sustainability. At the very least, it may give pause to persons /authorities reactively blocking greater access to the skies.
2018-12-20
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Mike-the-cat Posted at 12-20 12:55
You are right about the party having criminal intent... and according to CNN, it looks like it's a custom build.

industrial and something cant buy off the shelf is the only description officially.  the only 2 videos i found huge time apart.. night and day, literally and the fact they refusing to let any drone advocates or community leaders speak to and about this seems suspicious.. very 1 sided debate, very limited details, many many people not even mentioning they seen a drone only a few have and even fewer with video..  you think with such a huge event like this more people would been savvy to this.

this much down time costs huge money, would be worth it for them to pay the legal fines jamming wideband 2.4Ghz and 5.8Ghz and following it with a car equipped with a localized jammer back to its take off point..  or they could jam GPS/GNSS on L1 and L2 frequencies (civilian navigation) andjam 2.4/5/8Ghz and lock it into position effectively it wont be able to initiate a RTH without navigation and it be hard to control it with jammed signal so it be stuck hovering until battery dies and it lands of crashes...well assumign keeps happening..   
the police said its intentionall act but isnt terrorism.. that is ...intentially costing airport 100s of millions of dollars +   thats is technically a form of terrorism.. so thats a confusing statement in of itself..

something anything ....because this seems suspicious at best

2018-12-20
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There are existing bodies that promote airsports and flying a drone is not excluded to this. There are many regulators such as the FAA, EASA and local country institutions that seek to control the use of drones. I suggest seeking you representing National Airsport Control (using the link to the FAI (Federation Aeronatical International) website: https://www.fai.org/) There will surely already be local licenses that will allow responsible drone pilots get more possibilities over non licensed pilots.

https://www.fai.org/sport/drones ... 18&display=list
2018-12-29
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After reading several more cases of False NFZ, instead suggest at this moment in time - We would all be better served by DJI working with their new GPS / GEO / NFZ partner to get bugs worked out and NFZ maps accurate.  
Along with DJI telling government agencies in charge of Airports / Helipads / etc. to get their databases up to date.  Especially with regards to defunct runways, bogus runways, and contact information (phone #s) of active runways and helipads current.  Even implementing Fines for failing to keep contact information current.
2018-12-29
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Cmartin3977
Second Officer
Flight distance : 70927 ft
United States
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I disagree, it’s not the job nor the responsibility of the drone manufacturer to control the way the consumer uses its products once it’s bought by the consumer.  I certainly don’t want a company that lives in a different country to tell me or regulate how I use what I bought.  That is up to the governing body of that country, not DJI.  You should have to follow rules and regulations made by your country and that’s it.  We certainly don’t need DJI to make standards and licensing for everyone, as their restrictions are already to intrusive.
2018-12-29
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