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why is everbody crying for Cinelike?
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UweE
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Hi everybody!

I have an OP and I am generally satisfied with the little thing.
I have some minor issues with the AFC-function, but this might be
solved soon.

I am newbie with regards to video-filming, so I wonder, why a lot of users are
asking constantly to get the Cinelike-profile. Is it really that important?

Thanks for bringing some light into it!

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Vermifuge
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the Pocket isn't even what i would can a pro-sumer product.  Cinelike would sort sort of wasted on that sensor.  Shooting log in many instances is just making more work for yourself with little gain.
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Rob W
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The flatter rendering of Cinelike enables greater post-processing latitude. It helps if you would like to match the OP's recordings with other camera recordings.

OP is not a professional camera, but it can be used for B-roll footage. The OP is very small and easy to bring everywhere, so I might catch some interesting footage with it, footage I otherwise would have missed as I don't carry all the other heavier cameras with me everywhere I go. So for me Cinelike is a very good option to have.

It all depends on your own usage, what you need the OP for.
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Rogue0ne
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Because I shoot in D-cinelike on all of my other cameras, including the Mavic Air (also not a pro level camera). So, I want to be able to grade everything together so the colour matches.
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Giammi
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Because it's way easier to color match clips from other cameras in post.
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UweE
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thanks for your feedback!
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Ken77
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I think more than the use of Cinelike is the obvious inability of so many using log or something like it to properly grade it. The overwhelming number of videos I see on YouTube don't come close in quality to the same footage that could be obtained straight from the camera. Most can't get good color in the grading process and the overall light/dark values look just weird.

Of course there are some, a minority IMO, that can grade properly and for those folks they are able to extract a bit more DR from the camera, whatever that camera is. For me I've never found it worthwhile to spend that time when today's cameras are so good in providing quality footage SOC.
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 06:28
the Pocket isn't even what i would can a pro-super product.  Cinelike would sort sort of wasted on that sensor.  Shooting log in many instances is just making more work for yourself with little gain.

"pro-sumer"
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Rob W
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Ken77 Posted at 1-8 08:26
I think more than the use of Cinelike is the obvious inability of so many using log or something like it to properly grade it. The overwhelming number of videos I see on YouTube don't come close in quality to the same footage that could be obtained straight from the camera. Most can't get good color in the grading process and the overall light/dark values look just weird.

Of course there are some, a minority IMO, that can grade properly and for those folks they are able to extract a bit more DR from the camera, whatever that camera is. For me I've never found it worthwhile to spend that time when today's cameras are so good in providing quality footage SOC.

In order to make good use of Cinelike, you need to have a good post production setup for grading. A good monitor is a must, and it needs to be calibrated. If the videomaker does not have good equipment and knowledge, then there is no meaning for him/her of filming in Cinelike.

An then we also need to take into account on what the viewer watches the video on. It does not matter much if the videomaker did everything right, and the viewer watch on a badly calibrated monitor...

What is important is that we have a choice if we want to film in Cinelike or not. Just because a certain option exists does not mean you have to use it. Right now we don't have the option to film in Cinelike, because the promised, and for many important feature, is not here yet.
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opnwong
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 06:28
the Pocket isn't even what i would can a pro-sumer product.  Cinelike would sort sort of wasted on that sensor.  Shooting log in many instances is just making more work for yourself with little gain.

Is Mavic air, 2, Pro all pro-sumer products?  
Is cinelink wasted on these sensors?
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Vermifuge
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opnwong Posted at 1-8 10:18
Is Mavic air, 2, Pro all pro-sumer products?  
Is cinelink wasted on these sensors?

yup, not adding much with such a small sensor.  and with good lighting you are just adding extra work to your workflow.
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DJI-Osmo-User-1
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 10:33
yup, not adding much with such a small sensor.  and with good lighting you are just adding extra work to your workflow.

The thread starter is showing his ignorance when he has no clue what cine like is “crying” all the others that cleanly don’t work with different cameras on the same time line then why comment in an area you have no desire to use?

It’s not about dynamic range etc etc it’s about matching and grading to taste.....
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opnwong
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 10:33
yup, not adding much with such a small sensor.  and with good lighting you are just adding extra work to your workflow.

This just show your lack of understanding of shooting a flat or log file.

The whole point of shooting in a flat profile is having much better latitude to pull back highlight and push shadows to extract the maximum dynamic range and colour science.

Even with good lighting you are limited to the software making a call for you on what it think is the right exposure.  You can easily get additional 1-2 stop DR if you grade the footage manually from a low contrast footage.
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opnwong
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On top of that, I suppose I will be wasting my breath to talk about LUT and creating the different look, feel by changing the hue (colour) , saturation, for highlight and shadow?   
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Vermifuge
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opnwong Posted at 1-8 11:03
This just show your lack of understanding of shooting a flat or log file.

The whole point of shooting in a flat profile is having much better latitude to pull back highlight and push shadows to extract the maximum dynamic range and colour science.

The camera isn't good enough to capture the data you desire. You don't have to shoot in LOG/Cinlike to apply a LUT.
1. Tiny sensor

It's not capturing the data you want

2. 8 bit (not 10 bit) bitrate

Its not preserving the data you want.  Color grading 8 bit will give you extra noise and banding

3. More noise in black range.

You are literally working against youtself. The OP is on the grund not the skye. You are going to get more noise

4. LOG/Cinlike is hard to monitor when capturing.  

Doing so on a 1" screen (that is probably less than 8 bit) isis not going let you acuratly monitor what you are filming.  Even when connected to a smart phone, you are going to tie your hands.

5. Not everything and and or will be fixed in post
It is not smart to fix everything in post. You are wasting time.  But then again you should not be using the OP for any serious kind of prodcution work.






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opnwong
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 11:14
the sensor isn't good enough to capture the data you desire. You don't have to shoot in LOG/Cinlike to aply a LUT.

I take it you never tried colour grading?
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Vermifuge
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opnwong Posted at 1-8 11:21
I take it you never tried colour grading?

lol mmmmmkay
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DJI Natalia
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Hi, I appreciate your time bringing this query to us. Regarding your concern, The Cine-Like feature can enhance the dim part of the picture, so it will look fine without any post-processing. As the Osmo Pocket's Cine-Like does not have an exclusive LUT, and the contrast ratio is low, the videos and pictures can be used without post-processing. I hope this will help. Thank you.
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DJI-Osmo-User-1
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 11:14
The camera isn't good enough to capture the data you desire. You don't have to shoot in LOG/Cinlike to apply a LUT.
1. Tiny sensor

Mwah ha ha, what you been smoking?

You clearly have no clue what your talking about, your attempting to be a snob but failing miserably.

Priceless
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opnwong
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I rest my case!
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Vermifuge
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DJI-Osmo-User-1 Posted at 1-8 11:46
Mwah ha ha, what you been smoking?

You clearly have no clue what your talking about, your attempting to be a snob but failing miserably.

If you are going to apply a LUT you are going to grade your footage regardless.  Why add an extra step if you are only going to diminish the quality?  As started above. The bitrate isn't even suitable for the data you are hoping to retrieve from the flat image.  
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 14:21
If you are going to apply a LUT you are going to grade your footage regardless.  Why add an extra step if you are only going to diminish the quality?  As started above. The bitrate isn't even suitable for the data you are hoping to retrieve from the flat image.

Omfg, do you have a single clue what’s involved with applying a LUT? You don’t just drag n drop and your done,, there will be a pre grade before the lut and lots of tweaking after the lut.
Nobody here is saying the Osmo will behave and have the latitude ofl Cinema dng/raw, but 100mb/s bitrate is plenty of overhead to grade with.

Look clearly cine like is not for you and that’s fine but don’t attempt to be clever about something you have no desire or skill to work with.

You just pump up the saturation and contrast add a touch of vivid and you be good to go with you water painting master piece.
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opnwong
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 14:21
If you are going to apply a LUT you are going to grade your footage regardless.  Why add an extra step if you are only going to diminish the quality?  As started above. The bitrate isn't even suitable for the data you are hoping to retrieve from the flat image.

Omg!  Please stop embarrassing yourself further.

Stick to a subject you know (or at least you have tried) before replying!   

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opnwong
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Vermifuge Posted at 1-8 14:21
If you are going to apply a LUT you are going to grade your footage regardless.  Why add an extra step if you are only going to diminish the quality?  As started above. The bitrate isn't even suitable for the data you are hoping to retrieve from the flat image.

For your information and helping you with the right facts!

bit rate is measure in Mbps Mega bit per second (not 8 bit as you quoted in #15!)
Osmo Pocket has the same bit rate as my Sony A7Sii at 100Mbps at 4K.   

If you bother to google the internet, there are lots of articales and examples video on how well you can grade SLog2, 3 and Cine4 with 100Mbps


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UweE
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DJI-Osmo-User-1 Posted at 1-8 10:54
The thread starter is showing his ignorance when he has no clue what cine like is “crying” all the others that cleanly don’t work with different cameras on the same time line then why comment in an area you have no desire to use?

It’s not about dynamic range etc etc it’s about matching and grading to taste.....

Why is asking something now showing ignorance?I clearly wrote, that I am new on this and just asked for an explanation, why
so many people have cinelike-profile on top of their wish list.

Are you the god of filming?
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Cameleon
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opnwong Posted at 1-8 15:59
For your information and helping you with the right facts!

bit rate is measure in Mbps Mega bit per second (not 8 bit as you quoted in #15!)

Think he meant bit-depth rather than bit-rate. I.e. the number of bits used to store the value of a photosite/pixel.


Not really related to bitrate other than both impact the final quality of the video but in different ways.


You need a certain bit-depth to hold a certain amount of dynamic range from the sensor, I'm not sure if 8 bits would hold the full dynamic range of the OPs sensor or not in most cases. If 8 bits is not enough, then the point is that you are losing information which can no be recovered, regardless of if you have a bitrate high enough to hold all that information itself.

I *think* 10 bits is the standard bitdepth for HDR, but I've been out of that game for some time so not 100% sure. Certainly most HDR panels are quoted as being 10bit. And most SRL/Mirrorless cameras these days are 14bit (or more perhaps) so more latitude to hold DR. I know my Canon M5 has a 14bit RAW, which I think most reviewers said was overkill and 12bit was enough.
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Curt1591
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It appears to me that the biggest complaint, concerning the lack of D-cine, is that it will require different post than the rest of one's footage.

I'm not a cinematographer. However, as one the processes thousands of images in Lightroom / Photoshop, I really treat each image individually. I don't batch any adjustments. This is because of different perspectives, light, cameras, etc, ....

Do people really people edit numerous clips and then color grade the entire video at once? Do all clips really need to have the same "ambiance"?

Now, I do understand that one might like to set sharpness, contrast and some other qualities. It's easier to increase these rather than try to decrease them.

But, if the Pocket is primarily a "B-roll" camera, I would doubt that what little footage is used would blow the workflow and ruin the video's mood.

That said, we can all hope that DJI upgrades the firmware and D-cine will become available. I would also prefer to set my own preferences.

Until then, I'll just carry on.
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Rob W
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Curt1591 Posted at 1-10 03:16
It appears to me that the biggest complaint, concerning the lack of D-cine, is that it will require different post than the rest of one's footage.

I'm not a cinematographer. However, as one the processes thousands of images in Lightroom / Photoshop, I really treat each image individually. I don't batch any adjustments. This is because of different perspectives, light, cameras, etc, ....

Well, you kinda said it yourself. You want images to be treated separately - to be able to adjust every image by itself. Cinelike or any RAW or log type of video makes it easier to do just that. The flat rendering of the video gives you as a videographer more opportunities to adjust the video. It could be to match against other videos filmed with other cameras, or to adjust to give a certain look and feel.

If the video is shot "served and ready" - as it is now, you can't make much adjustments on the video before it starts to look bad. Imagine that your photos where locked - that you could not adjust any curves on your photos?

Yes - people really edit numerous clips. Yes - matching should be done for different clips that makes up a scene (unless the filmmaker specifically wants to break that rule for creativity purposes). Imagine a scene in a dark room, where the different cuts keep changing color and brightness for the scene? On one cut it is quite dark and the white wall paper look gray, in the other it looks like it is almost a daylight and the wall paper looks pink? Put on any movie and watch if that happens ;)

Cinelike will come in the next firmware for the OP. It is an option, nobody is forced to shoot Cinelike if they don't want to. Those who want Cinelike, can then shoot in that mode and enjoy a little more legroom in post to achieve want they want. The OP is not a pro camera, but Cinelike will help a little for those who want to match their footage or create certain looks.
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El Diablo Posted at 1-10 04:59
In your opinion obviously...

The Osmo Pocket surely can not be pushed to extremes as it still has a tiny 1" sensor BUT having the ability to match footage with other devices (eg. blending with video from M2P) is a great option.

Actually the OP has a 1/2.3” sensor.
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opnwong
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Curt1591 Posted at 1-10 03:16
It appears to me that the biggest complaint, concerning the lack of D-cine, is that it will require different post than the rest of one's footage.

I'm not a cinematographer. However, as one the processes thousands of images in Lightroom / Photoshop, I really treat each image individually. I don't batch any adjustments. This is because of different perspectives, light, cameras, etc, ....

In video editing, there is a function called adjustment layers which allows you to apply a setting to a number of clips to achieve the same look.  
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opnwong Posted at 1-10 15:24
In video editing, there is a function called adjustment layers which allows you to apply a setting to a number of clips to achieve the same look.

Yes; I am familiar with layers. However, I doubt one would cover the entire video with one blanket, unless it was a one take.
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Curt1591 Posted at 1-10 16:16
Yes; I am familiar with layers. However, I doubt one would cover the entire video with one blanket, unless it was a one take.

It's actually a very common procedure. Color correct  and match the individual clips them use an adjustment layer over the whole scene to grade it.
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Legionvapes Posted at 1-10 17:20
It's actually a very common procedure. Color correct  and match the individual clips them use an adjustment layer over the whole scene to grade it.

How often might sometime shot with the Pocket actually be part of a "scene"? I would think it would be used more as a different perspective, like mixing drone footage onto a chase scene.
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eYeSkYeYe
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It depends.... for like 90% it's probably not that important... they've just heard about color grading etc.... and want that ability despite the fact they will try it maybe 2, 3 times and be done with it.
As time shows now, looks like for average consumer, phase detection AF would be far more useful than cinelike. I mean, pretty much every mid range phone up to 300usd like pocophone or mi 8 released in 2018 has it so really not sure why it was missed in OP...
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I totally disagree, if and when cine like is enabled I will leave it on 99% of the time. Like the GoPro series if you are shooting anything where there is a predominant colour, like a sky, rich reds ect ect they become way over cooked in the simplicst of grades. Cine can in most cases totally avoid this issue.

With the hero6 blk straight out the camera was horid posterization without protune and the flat profile.

I bought the op for the cine like feature way up on my need list.
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Rob W
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eYeSkYeYe Posted at 1-11 03:24
It depends.... for like 90% it's probably not that important... they've just heard about color grading etc.... and want that ability despite the fact they will try it maybe 2, 3 times and be done with it.
As time shows now, looks like for average consumer, phase detection AF would be far more useful than cinelike. I mean, pretty much every mid range phone up to 300usd like pocophone or mi 8 released in 2018 has it so really not sure why it was missed in OP...

Cinelike is an announced feature. It should have been there at release date (many other things, too). So it is not a debate of if we should ask for Cinelike or not. It will be there in the next firmware according to support here.

Every user have the choice to use it or not. Those who do not like it or care for it - well, ignore it and this thread then. We all use our OP for different reasons. I certainly will use Cinelike most of the time, if not every time I film with it.

After the OP is feature complete, they should bug fix. AF should definately be looked over and be done better.
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opnwong
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Curt1591 Posted at 1-10 16:16
Yes; I am familiar with layers. However, I doubt one would cover the entire video with one blanket, unless it was a one take.

Your doubt is unfounded!


A "normal" workflow is  put in the adjustment layers after you done the base grading (colours, exposure, WB, ..etc) To achieve a consistence look (ie. aspect ratio, flim look...etc) you overlay with an adjustment layer.  Or if you are using Resolve, you create a post clip group node.


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