hallmark007 Posted at 6-2 01:22
Maybe post these responses they sound strange .
I wish you luck with your case, but I’m afraid that this is a clear case of user not being responsible and not accepting responsibility for his own lack of due diligence while flying what the manual clearly tells you is not a toy .

Can you please post the section of the manual that you are referring to?

AlxFlyMore Posted at 6-2 04:53
Can you please post the section of the manual that you are referring to?

Your manuals are littered with information best advice , there are many more I could post . Can you please post dji’s Response I have asked already .

hallmark007 Posted at 6-2 05:11
Your manuals are littered with information best advice , there are many more I could post . Can you please post dji’s Response I have asked already .

[view_image]

Good points to know but in my case the barometer was wrong. Also I don't think that the manual cancels consumer laws in every country. After all manuals are read after the purchase of the product. But I keep an open mind and wait for the result of my complaint. The response was:

We never said the aircraft could not fly over water but it is suggested to keep enough distance between the aircraft and the water. As for the height, the relative height showing on the top of the map was mainly measured by the barometer, when the aircraft flying near the water, the propellers were rotating and it would blow the water, the barometer would be affected so we said the fusion height would not be accurate when the aircraft was flying over the water.

The pilot could also check the height measured by the infrared sensing system, and that height referred to the distance between the aircraft and the obstacle underneath it. According to the video you offered, the wave was great on that day, it was poss

AlxFlyMore Posted at 6-2 05:39
Good points to know but in my case the barometer was wrong. Also I don't think that the manual cancels consumer laws in every country. After all manuals are read after the purchase of the product. But I keep an open mind and wait for the result of my complaint. The response was:

We never said the aircraft could not fly over water but it is suggested to keep enough distance between the aircraft and the water. As for the height, the relative height showing on the top of the map was mainly measured by the barometer, when the aircraft flying near the water, the propellers were rotating and it would blow the water, the barometer would be affected so we said the fusion height would not be accurate when the aircraft was flying over the water.

Again you failed to post djis response regarding what was the result of there decision, so it leaves your whole thread open to speculation.

I would tend to agree with you if as you say above what dji say caused the crash, but because it’s more than a little hard to believe without actual transcript , so this story is becoming more bizarre.
It’s also clear even though you had a previous crash you still failed to read and understand manual.

hallmark007 Posted at 6-2 05:45
Again you failed to post djis response regarding what was the result of there decision, so it leaves your whole thread open to speculation.

I would tend to agree with you if as you say above what dji say caused the crash, but because it’s more than a little hard to believe without actual transcript , so this story is becoming more bizarre.

DJI last response:
"We never said the aircraft could not fly over water but it is suggested to keep enough distance between the aircraft and the water. As for the height, the relative height showing on the top of the map was mainly measured by the barometer, when the aircraft flying near the water, the propellers were rotating and it would blow the water, the barometer would be affected so we said the fusion height would not be accurate when the aircraft was flying over the water.

The pilot could also check the height measured by the infrared sensing system, and that height referred to the distance between the aircraft and the obstacle underneath it. According to the video you offered, the wave was great on that day, it was possible that the aircraft would be collided by the wave.

We do feel sorry for your loss and sorry, this case was already escalated to our customer complaint department and they will contact you in about two working days after their investigation into the case. "

hallmark007 Posted at 6-2 05:45
Again you failed to post djis response regarding what was the result of there decision, so it leaves your whole thread open to speculation.

I would tend to agree with you if as you say above what dji say caused the crash, but because it’s more than a little hard to believe without actual transcript , so this story is becoming more bizarre.

I want to post their first reply as well but I get an error message that the post contains in appropriate content

Hi Alex
I have read the threads and viewed your own footage which unfortunately shows you taking your eye of the drone

Hi Alex
I have read the threads and viewed your own footage which unfortunately shows you taking your eye of the drone

I turn off the bottom sensors when I fly over water, I also keep at least 20 feet above it..Never had a problem

Davebarwick Posted at 6-8 06:43
Hi Alex
I have read the threads and viewed your own footage which unfortunately shows you taking your eye of the drone

DJI store product description video: "the aircraft analyses every inch of its surrounding to move around obstacles without stoping so you can focus on capturing the perfect shot."

Reality check: "I have read the threads and viewed your own footage which unfortunately shows you taking your eye of the drone"

Starfire3D Posted at 6-9 02:41
I turn off the bottom sensors when I fly over water, I also keep at least 20 feet above it..Never had a problem

same, I have done testing over the ocean as well as lakes and rivers and have come to the conclusion that, in the most optimal of conditions, the drone is able to maintain about 5-10' above the water if it is, at best, still and has a low amount of sunlight entering the sensor. over the ocean is practically impossible unless 20' up as the throttle management needed doesnt always make for great shots.

I have a court hearing day of August 12th. I am taking DJI reseller to courts as I don't think their product was working as advertised. I'll let the community know of the outcome.

AlxFlyMore Posted at 7-21 19:12
I have a court hearing day of August 12th. I am taking DJI reseller to courts as I don't think their product was working as advertised. I'll let the community know of the outcome.

here is the issues and why free replacement may not be possible:

1. you mentioned u got distracted for a few seconds when it crashed... that is very definition of pilot error like textbook. you are responsible and incontrol at all times. i understand it was only for a short moment and it shouldn't have failed you but you are responsible for being in control of the aircraft to best of your ability..

2. clearly marked not fly over water or snow for this very reason, inherent risk.. normally the VPS would have saved it even if was using Baro, once VPS saw ground distance could take over.. but if the VPS failed to get a reading or inaccurate reading, being as its over highly reflective water..that is possible.. it could crash..

3. started making demands with DJI and "threats" to use consumer protection.. for their sake and liability will probably discontinue engagement.

I've never used any of the Quickshot modes on anything other than the Spark.
Because the drones are so big in comparison, I feel safer with an Activetrack Orbit only w/ the Spark.

The great thing I found with the forum is the awareness it has instilled in me. There are so many cases of lost drones, for whatever reason that any intelligent person will be left with an abundance of caution.
After doing a survey of the area I want to fly in to ensure I will always be able to see the drone, look for sources of radio and magnetic interference, people skulking about, property I need to avoid etc and all the pre flight checks. I then decide if the risk is worth it. The risk being the drone will fail and fall from the sky, because sometimes they do.
If the answer to that is yes, that means I don't expect to see it ever again and can live with it.
Next I try and anticipate what to do if a problem occurs in flight. Typically these will be a break in coms but not a disconnect where the drone should RTH. Of course, you will know all the responses off by heart, won't you.
Some folk have had gimbal failures in flight. I have and it is frightening. In my 2 cases, the gimbal thrashed around giving the on screen impression the drone was spinning and falling from the sky. In the first case, the camera ended up pointing straight down and wouldn't budge. The other showed no video feed. Have you practiced bringing the drone home just using the map and telemetry? Of course you have.
Because I take mostly stills, getting in close to the subject is quite important. I have often practiced with the sticks so I can do a POI manually and move in or out at the same time. Have you tried this with something small, like a car?  A big object is easy, a small one is tricky.
Yes, I do take chances like flying over water or way out to sea to search for shipwrecks, but they are all well planned and prepared for. I am under no illusion that the kit is fallible and I will make a mistake.


The last clip is unedited footage where a yacht got into trouble, apparently with Royal Navy crew on board. Hopefully this part will make you feel better.

I blame pilot error on this one, the waves alone would mess with the VPS sensor as far as altitude, and if the AC is defaulting to the barometric sensor for data the AC did what it was supposed to do. It probably got clipped by one of the larger waves I see in your video. If you had eyes on your AC at all times you could have prevented this accident, or even by starting at a higher altitude might have saved you. One of the biggest issues I hear from DJI customers "I was using Quickshot or active track" and I crashed my drone! Learn how to fly those AC moves with the sticks alone, once your good your fingers are smoother then the software is and if there is an issue your not dependant on DJI software to save you!

I agree with the pilot error consensus, baro-altimeter error or not. Crash causes are not black and white. It can be a mechanical/electrical/structural failure AND pilot error.

Take the L1011 accident in Dallas in the 1970's when the pilots were tunnel-visioned on an erroneous fuel gauge. YES, the fuel gauged failed, but it was pilot error for not watching their altitude on approach and the consequential horrific accident that occurred. Not the fuel gauge's, or manufacturer's fault.

To say "well the baro altimeter failed, hence I crashed -- DJI's fault" is a cop out for just plain pilot error, especially when you were obviously outside the safety envelopes stated in the manuals. Even if the baro failed, it wont directly cause you to crash if you are within VLOS and fingers at the ready on the controls. Even if you are in an "automated flight" feature like Quick Shot, it is still up to the pilot to pilot the aircraft, regardless of whatever auto-flight mode the drone is in.

Most accidents are a chain of events. Take one chain out of the accident chain, and you saved the accident from occurring. That is where the pilot comes into play. These drones are not foolproof AI drones, and rely on the pilot's interaction and monitoring. Keeping your eye on the drone at all times and fingers at the ready, even in automated modes, is paramount.

And to say (paraphrasing) "well, I paid for these automated features, it should be foolproof, and any error is DJI's fault" is a fool-hearty. Read the manual, know the systems, keep your eye on the craft at all times, have a checklist and a pre-flight brief with yourself about what you will do in an emergency, and the accident chain is broken 9.99 times out of 10.

Knock on wood, I have kept myself out of trouble thus far by following a safety program I put into my company's Ops Manual. BUT, to say we never make mistakes or have bad days at all when flying, even the best of us, is fool-hearty too. I freely admit that I have had my share of "moments" that ultimately I learned from and drill into my head as not to repeat. Its all about risk management. The more you know and prep, the less risky the flight is. But it can never be perfect.

I'm sorry for the OP's equipment loss, but chock this one up to a (expensive) learning moment, and move on. Lets not point fingers at DJI on this one, even if there was a failure of the baro altimeter. That failure alone should not have lead to the crash. Take the lesson to heart and move on.

That's why I always keep my thumb on the PAUSE  button on the controller when the drone is performing an intelligent flight mode. If I see anything wrong I can quick react to it. But I have to agrre that the greatest benefit of flying on intelligent flight modes are that you can act spontaneously without looking at the camera...

HereForTheBeer Posted at 7-22 08:06
here is the issues and why free replacement may not be possible:

1. you mentioned u got distracted for a few seconds when it crashed... that is very definition of pilot error like textbook. you are responsible and incontrol at all times. i understand it was only for a short moment and it shouldn't have failed you but you are responsible for being in control of the aircraft to best of your ability..

1- So you don't expect your car's advertised safety features to work if you got distracted while driving? I don't understand your logic here.
2- Official DJI website disagrees with you. They recommend taking video/photos of the Great Barrier Reef in Australia. It's in middle of ocean, right? It's part of my defence in court.
3- It's not a threat if I actually do it, right? All I want to find out is if the consumer law protects me or not. I guess we find out in two weeks and I am not preempting the courts decision in any way.

JPilotR Posted at 7-22 14:24
I agree with the pilot error consensus, baro-altimeter error or not. Crash causes are not black and white. It can be a mechanical/electrical/structural failure AND pilot error.

Take the L1011 accident in Dallas in the 1970's when the pilots were tunnel-visioned on an erroneous fuel gauge. YES, the fuel gauged failed, but it was pilot error for not watching their altitude on approach and the consequential horrific accident that occurred. Not the fuel gauge's, or manufacturer's fault.

My whole point is that the features I paid for didn't work. I expected them to work. It was advertised to work. But it didn't. My $2000 drone should be better than $600 spark or $1000 Mavic Pro 1. It wasn't. Also DJI should make it very clear to consumers that Quickshot should never be used on water/snow. I mean it should be clear in product description and not in manual. People read manual after buying a product.

AlxFlyMore Posted at 7-24 20:02
My whole point is that the features I paid for didn't work. I expected them to work. It was advertised to work. But it didn't. My $2000 drone should be better than $600 spark or $1000 Mavic Pro 1. It wasn't. Also DJI should make it very clear to consumers that Quickshot should never be used on water/snow. I mean it should be clear in product description and not in manual. People read manual after buying a product.

If you take a Mavic 1 and fly it backwards into a wall it will crash.
If you take a Mavic 2 and do the same it will not.

Let me borrow you car example.
Nowadays, car manufactures bring new safety features to their newest cars which have sensors on board to look for pedestrians. Those systems are capable to stop the car to avoid an accident if a pedestrian is on the car's path.

What if you have such a car, and run over a pedestrian? Will you blame the car manufacturer because their system did not work as advertised?
Edit: Also you state that people read manual after they buy the product. Let me help you with that argument. The response to that argument could be: Let's assume for a moment this is right (although manuals are available online so you can download them before actual purchase), did you read the manual within the first 14 days of your purchase? I guess the answer is no , because if you had read it, you would have known the limitations of the technology that you just bought and since you seem to not agree with these limitations you would have returned it for a refund. You didn't return it, hence you either ignored the limitations or accepted them.

Therefore if you use this argument, you make clear that you did not read the manual, which of course is vital for safely operate the drone.
I'm very intersted on your case's outcome in the court.
Good luck

I went to the tribunal and successfully defeated DJI reseller and got an order for full refund. It all came down to  if it was an "improper flight environment" and if DJI has provided enough warning for the user that the drone should not be operated over the water. This DJI analysis really damaged them:

"As for the height, the relative height showing on the top of the map was mainly measured by the barometer, when the aircraft flying near the water, the propellers were rotating and it would blow the water, the barometer would be affected so we said the fusion height would not be accurate when the aircraft was flying over the water."

The court was satisfied that the drone was operated few meters above the water, sufficient distance according to DJI and that the barometer inaccuracy was a fault.

If you are in Australia with a similar incident be sure to take them to the tribunal. I am pretty sure you will win the case as DJI advertising isn't accurate.

I hope that now DJI can refund my DJI Care cost too, or maybe DJI can transfer it to another Drone. DJI Care was purchased from from another reseller so I wasn't able to get the refund today. I'll send them an email and if they said no, I'll take them to the tribunal too

Also, I made it clear to the tribunal that I did not read the manual. I told them I used Youtube videos to learn how to operate the drone. But my case was helped very much as even the DJI reseller wasn't able to point out where in the manual it says the drone should not be operated in a similar environment.  The judge gave them 10-15 minutes to read the manual and find something relevant. They ended up saying that the manual says the drone should not be operated with winds more than 22 mph which was dismissed quickly as there was no evidence of wind.  I don't think I would lose even if they found something else. Customers don't lose their right just because there is something in the manual.

I have had a similar unfortunate experience. One moment my brand new Mavic 2 Zoom was hovering approximately 2 meters over water and the next (as I was framing my next shot) it independently descended into the water. I have seen a number of similar cases, and I have flown a Phantom 3 for over 3 years without incident so I think there is more here than human error.  Have you received any acknowledgement from DJI that this is a known issue?

fansfbeb7506 Posted at 8-29 22:44
I have had a similar unfortunate experience. One moment my brand new Mavic 2 Zoom was hovering approximately 2 meters over water and the next (as I was framing my next shot) it independently descended into the water. I have seen a number of similar cases, and I have flown a Phantom 3 for over 3 years without incident so I think there is more here than human error.  Have you received any acknowledgement from DJI that this is a known issue?

why DJI would ever confirm such a case? it would be like shooting themselves in the foot

fansfbeb7506 Posted at 8-29 22:44
I have had a similar unfortunate experience. One moment my brand new Mavic 2 Zoom was hovering approximately 2 meters over water and the next (as I was framing my next shot) it independently descended into the water. I have seen a number of similar cases, and I have flown a Phantom 3 for over 3 years without incident so I think there is more here than human error.  Have you received any acknowledgement from DJI that this is a known issue?

The last time someone reported on this forum that their aircraft had spontaneously landed in the water, it turned out that they had pulled back on the left stick long enough to initiate an auto-landing. However, if you really believe yours landed "independently" then retrieve the flight log from your mobile device using these instructions, upload it to the linked (PhantomHelp) website, and provide a link to the uploaded log in this thread.

AlxFlyMore Posted at 8-11 19:14
Also, I made it clear to the tribunal that I did not read the manual. I told them I used Youtube videos to learn how to operate the drone. But my case was helped very much as even the DJI reseller wasn't able to point out where in the manual it says the drone should not be operated in a similar environment.  The judge gave them 10-15 minutes to read the manual and find something relevant. They ended up saying that the manual says the drone should not be operated with winds more than 22 mph which was dismissed quickly as there was no evidence of wind.  I don't think I would lose even if they found something else. Customers don't lose their right just because there is something in the manual.

Maybe post the actual ruling, I’m certain you should have this ?

Gimpy Posted at 8-30 04:24
The last time someone reported on this forum that their aircraft had spontaneously landed in the water, it turned out that they had pulled back on the left stick long enough to initiate an auto-landing. However, if you really believe yours landed "independently" then retrieve the flight log from your mobile device using these instructions, upload it to the linked (PhantomHelp) website, and provide a link to the uploaded log in this thread.

Hey, thanks for pointing out these instructions. Logs are here:
https :// www. phantomhelp. com / LogViewer / G3DDDXLZBF63BM5QXCUH/
I believe the logs corroborate what I remember happening:
Starting at 10:50 the drone is hovering at 9.5 feet. It then independently looses altitude to 0.3 feet at 11:10. At that point I pushed up hard but it was too late - water shorted something. It ascends to 29 feet and then crashes.

jpap Posted at 8-30 00:18
why DJI would ever confirm such a case? it would be like shooting themselves in the foot

I don't agree. I think DJI have a reputation which is priceless. It looks to me that they have a software bug. If that is the case the wise thing to do would be to find acknowledge the bug and fix it before more of these inciednts crop up and they tarnish their reputation.

Just returned from vacation. Flew my m2zoom over the sea for more than 1.3 km away. Chased jetskis, paragliders, speed boats etc... All perfect. Except one time it was descending suddenly and almost hit the sea. I responded with full throttle up and saved my drone. So you must be very alert flying over water.

fans00d5a95a Posted at 9-1 11:06
Just returned from vacation. Flew my m2zoom over the sea for more than 1.3 km away. Chased jetskis, paragliders, speed boats etc... All perfect. Except one time it was descending suddenly and almost hit the sea. I responded with full throttle up and saved my drone. So you must be very alert flying over water.

Hiya neighbour,

Happy that your M2Z did not went for a swim.....

If you like post this flightlog on here, mayby it tells us why it descend that fast !!

link > https://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/Upload/

cheers
JJB

JJB* Posted at 9-1 12:12
Hiya neighbour,

Happy that your M2Z did not went for a swim.....

It is clear in the flight logs that my vps indeed stopped working at the moment of the sudden drop to the sea.
Luckily I trottled up immediately.
https://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/ZLNEWEVZUWG4V3FQGT4I

fans00d5a95a Posted at 9-1 20:52
It is clear in the flight logs that my vps indeed stopped working at the moment of the sudden drop to the sea.
Luckily I trottled up immediately.
https://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/ZLNEWEVZUWG4V3FQGT4I

Wow, good safe ; pulling up that close the the sea!! ( you must have visual been close to your drone, if not really a WOW)

Indeed, VPS is not indicating always height during yor low flying over water flight.

What do i see in the flightlog (my opinion, feel free to have a different opinion)
Just before the drop height, MP2 is flying in P-GPS with full pitch down (speed 8 ms/, pitch down 9 degree),
Fwd input neutral, MP2 pitching up to 25 degrees to stop the fwd motion,
While still busy stopping you activate ActiveTrack, (at 4.9 m/s fwd flying)
In Active track your drone pitch down to 27 degrees to track i guess and increase speed.
During that pitching up to down the speed increased and height decreased!
After initially pitching down to 27, back to 6 degrees pitch down.

height at lowest point, if VPS height sensor measured it OKE, 1.4 meters.
As the BARO height decreases with more or less the same values, my guess is that the 1.4 meters was indeed the height flown.

So IMO its not the VPS sensor wich let your MP2 dropped in height, but the switching in flight mode while still busy braking.
[ AFAIK height is controlled by barometer info. With landing protection ON; VPS height info is used to notice too low flying, but this signal will never give a steer down input ]

Before in this flight VPS height was not always measuring/indicating, see the green line upper chart.
During indication / not indication your MP2 did fly at the same height all the time.

[at ID 8130 > switching P-GPS to ActiveTrack, after that the height drop ]

cheers
JJB

Thanks for the analysis. When I recovered I was looking at my phones live view. I saw that he dropped and gave throttle up. Guess it was a very important action to do... I recorded the drop with the drone and used it in my holiday movie. Its viewable on youtube.

You will see sudden drop of my drone at 01 minute and 37 seconds... Very scary seconds...

fans00d5a95a Posted at 9-1 23:48
Thanks for the analysis. When I recovered I was looking at my phones live view. I saw that he dropped and gave throttle up. Guess it was a very important action to do... I recorded the drop with the drone and used it in my holiday movie. Its viewable on youtube.

You will see sudden drop of my drone at 01 minute and 37 seconds... Very scary seconds...

Great movie, perfect use of a drone during holiday,  and as  said: a great action to throttle up just in time!!

Sorry, a bit off topic ... well not entirely. We're living on a boat, so flying the M2P a lot over open water. Had no issues so far, but just to feel better, can anybody point me to a reliable recovery aid? I'm subscribed to Care Refresh, so I'll just need to sent it back to get it replaced. I did not plan to land or start in water.
So far I came across the GetterBack / Water Buoy and the landing gear / float. The first seems to be not exactly reliable, the landing gear will add and wind resistance. Is that all we've got? Any tips or links?
Thanks!

fansfbeb7506 Posted at 8-29 22:44
I have had a similar unfortunate experience. One moment my brand new Mavic 2 Zoom was hovering approximately 2 meters over water and the next (as I was framing my next shot) it independently descended into the water. I have seen a number of similar cases, and I have flown a Phantom 3 for over 3 years without incident so I think there is more here than human error.  Have you received any acknowledgement from DJI that this is a known issue?

No, even after court ruling, DJI hasn't reached out to me to explain anything.

hallmark007 Posted at 8-30 08:42
Maybe post the actual ruling, I’m certain you should have this ?

The official written ruling just says tribunal orders DJI reseller to pay me the full cost of the drone and court fees. The judge verbally explained the reasons behind the ruling. Basically they were satisfied that the device was faulty and didn't function according to advertisement.

AlxFlyMore Posted at 9-3 12:20
The official written ruling just says tribunal orders DJI reseller to pay me the full cost of the drone and court fees. The judge verbally explained the reasons behind the ruling. Basically they were satisfied that the device was faulty and didn't function according to advertisement.

Nothing in any court is ever concluded on without it being recorded, I thought you wouldn’t post official ruling , so for me just going through the whole thread this is completely fake except for the fact you crashed your drone .

hallmark007 Posted at 9-3 14:02
Nothing in any court is ever concluded on without it being recorded, I thought you wouldn’t post official ruling , so for me just going through the whole thread this is completely fake except for the fact you crashed your drone .

What? Fake how? It's a forum and if you have trust issues you shouldn't use forums in general. No one will bother to prove anything to you. Everything in court is recorded somewhere but it's not that it's available for everyone.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think everything in this thread is fake?