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Do third-party products *always* void warranty / refresh?
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Dangerly
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At https://www.dji.com/service/djicare-refresh/info#terms it says that DJI warranty and refresh are voided if "Damage caused by using your DJI product together with a non-DJI product or third-party accessory/software that is not authorized by DJI".
Exactly what does this mean from a legal perspective, and from a practical perspective (which might be different things)? Does it mean if I'm using any third-party product, DJI can refuse warranty and refresh care simply because I'm using a third-party product? Or does it mean that warranty and refresh are voided only if the third-party product actually caused the damage (or contributed to it)?

Example 1: I put a small third-party sticker on the top of my drone battery pack that clearly couldn't cause any damage - it's not loose, weighs virtually nothing, and isn't covering anything. My drone crashes. Could DJI refuse to honor refresh or warranty because I affixed a third party sticker on top of my battery? This doesn't seem reasonable to me, but could DJI still refuse refresh or warranty?

Example 2: I put the same sticker over the vision sensor systems in front of the drone that prevents them from working properly, and as a result, this causes a crash. In other words, the third-party product in this case actually caused the damage - or at least the damage could reasonably have been avoided without the third-party product. This seems totally reasonable to me that DJI could refuse refresh or warranty.



So how is this exlusion clause actually interpreted? Your thoughts?
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hallmark007
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If its in your warranty, I’d say yes they could, I’m certain dji are not going to name everything thats in or out, but anything that can effect flight will show up on flight log, so sticker wont, but something that causes flight to be carrying to much payload may show up.
So if you have a crash with sticker on battery, take sticker off before returning drone for appraisal, only a fool wouldn’t. But i have never heard of warranty being denied because of sticker skin etc even using third party software if it didn’t cause crash dji will honor your warranty. I believe with logs that show a malfunction because of defect with craft dji will honor warranty.
If third party add on causes crash then its only correct that dji would refuse warranty and I’m in full agreement with that.

Common sense should be applied and i dont think dji will not show common sense in doing the right thing if their hardware causes a crash, and its wrong to expect anything more than this from a warranty.
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JohnLietzke
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Dangerly,

You pose an interesting question in regards to DJI's view of what is a third-party accessory.  From users on the MavPilot forum it appears that DJI is very lose on honoring warranties when it comes to skins and stickers.  Apparently DJI does not void the warrantee.

But other things DJI uses to the void the warrantee.  Some of which may not even be on the aircraft when sent in for warrantee repair.  For example, you affix a light to your drone using a removable mount and take it off before sending it in for repair.  DJI examines the logs and proprietary flight data and determines that the takeoff weight was greater than what it should be.  DJI voids your warrantee.  

The sticker on the vision sensor would naturally void your warrantee claim as it was something that disable or impeded a flight and/or safety feature.

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The Saint
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not the questions you asked but an interesting read:  https://www.roadandtrack.com/car ... void-your-warranty/
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hallmark007
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JohnLietzke Posted at 2-11 13:29
Dangerly,

You pose an interesting question in regards to DJI's view of what is a third-party accessory.  From users on the MavPilot forum it appears that DJI is very lose on honoring warranties when it comes to skins and stickers.  Apparently DJI does not void the warrantee.

I think your basically spreading urban myths, this is largest dji forum site, can you show one case of which you speak of, or is it just Mavic pilots site that dji are not honoring warranties. I have had to send my drone in twice over the last 6 years both times it contained my commercial identity by way of a sticker, and no mention of the sticker and warranty was granted without fuss.

In all my years on this forum and I’ve been around many years, I have never seen a drone warranty canceled because it had a skin. And furthermore I have seen many warranties been granted although pilots were using third party software IE Litchi, but because litchi was not the cause of the crash warranty was accepted.

This kind of false/bad information helps no one and really should be backed up with some fact before posting. Equally there are many users here who are only to willing to help others guarantee there warranties are honored in the event of malfunction due to faulty craft.
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Dangerly
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hallmark007 Posted at 2-11 14:51
I think your basically spreading urban myths, this is largest dji forum site, can you show one case of which you speak of, or is it just Mavic pilots site that dji are not honoring warranties. I have had to send my drone in twice over the last 6 years both times it contained my commercial identity by way of a sticker, and no mention of the sticker and warranty was granted without fuss.

In all my years on this forum and I’ve been around many years, I have never seen a drone warranty canceled because it had a skin. And furthermore I have seen many warranties been granted although pilots were using third party software IE Litchi, but because litchi was not the cause of the crash warranty was accepted.

What false information am I spreading? I am asking questions only.
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JohnLietzke
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hallmark007 Posted at 2-11 14:51
I think your basically spreading urban myths, this is largest dji forum site, can you show one case of which you speak of, or is it just Mavic pilots site that dji are not honoring warranties. I have had to send my drone in twice over the last 6 years both times it contained my commercial identity by way of a sticker, and no mention of the sticker and warranty was granted without fuss.

In all my years on this forum and I’ve been around many years, I have never seen a drone warranty canceled because it had a skin. And furthermore I have seen many warranties been granted although pilots were using third party software IE Litchi, but because litchi was not the cause of the crash warranty was accepted.

Hallmark007,

As I stated, despite a skin being technically a third party accessory DJI apparently still honors the warrantee.  There have been a few threads on here relating to skins and warrantee/Refresh experience over the last year.  I would assume that DJI also would honor the warrantee when required identification information that must be visible and affixed to the drone is present.

DJI is typical of most warrantee language pertaining to exclusions.  It is broad and encompassing in nature, using general scope instead of specific examples, to greater preclude warrantee lawsuites in adverse situations.  Just because DJI excludes something in the warrantee legal framework does not required them to void the warrantee.  It simply give DJI the discretion to legally do so.

I provided a inference to another forum where I had seen this topic in specific addressed with actual user experience and photos for others who were interested.  This maybe the largest DJI forum but it is also owned, operated and moderated by DJI.  There are some reasonable concerns of business prowess, inherant bias and impartiality.  Hence, why an outside platform of shared expierence in this case pertaining to warrantee claims, which often have disgruntled customers, might be of more value.


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The Saint
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JohnLietzke Posted at 2-11 16:30
Hallmark007,

As I stated, despite a skin being technically a third party accessory DJI apparently still honors the warrantee.  There have been a few threads on here relating to skins and warrantee/Refresh experience over the last year.  I would assume that DJI also would honor the warrantee when required identification information that must be visible and affixed to the drone is present.

john, i like what you said except for this part "....It simply give DJI the discretion to legally do so."

why go thru all the trouble, dji should just say "...but we can void your warranty at any time for any reason whenever we feel like it."  there isn't anything that i am aware of that gives dji this type of discretion to legally do anything they want just because they put it on paper.  certainly if they wrote "place a lumecube on your drone, void your warranty because we tested it and it breaks our drone" then yeah maybe but that's not what you meant i assume.

i know this is a tough subject but we gotta address the reality of this and that is the law.  of course, laws are not easy to read and/or understand.  but in america, a warranty isn't just some deal between dji and me with them in total control.  you have rights.  so let's read about them, straight from the horse's mouth:

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/ ... y-law#Magnuson-Moss
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Labroides
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Exactly what does this mean from a legal perspective.
Just read that line again slowly.
I've highlighted the significant part to help you.

DJI warranty and refresh are voided if damage is caused by using your DJI  product together with a non-DJI product or third-party  accessory/software that is not authorized by DJI.

There shouldn't be any need to explain that any further, the wording is perfectly clear.

Example 2: I put the same sticker over the vision sensor systems in front of the drone that prevents them from working properly, and as a result, this causes a crash. In other words, the third-party product in this case actually caused the damage - or at least the damage could reasonably have been avoided without the third-party product. This seems totally reasonable to me that DJI could refuse refresh or warranty.
Before you get too excited about your hypothetical scenario, perhaps you could explain how blocking the downward facing sensors might cause a crash?





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DJI Natalia
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Hi there, for fly safety considerations, it is not recommended to use third-party accessories or software to fly a drone. Should there any issue happens, you are recommended to send the drone in to DJI official repair center for a thorough diagnosis, the proper solution will be provided based on the result of the diagnosis. Thanks for your kind understanding.
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hallmark007
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JohnLietzke Posted at 2-11 16:30
Hallmark007,

As I stated, despite a skin being technically a third party accessory DJI apparently still honors the warrantee.  There have been a few threads on here relating to skins and warrantee/Refresh experience over the last year.  I would assume that DJI also would honor the warrantee when required identification information that must be visible and affixed to the drone is present.

Again I find your lack of any proof lets your argument down. Maybe show cases here where something like a skin caused any problems. Yes the forum is owned by dji, but it has never stopped others posting or airing their views. But when you post from what is clearly hearsay then you don't help anyone.
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hallmark007
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Dangerly Posted at 2-11 15:56
What false information am I spreading? I am asking questions only.

Can you show me where I said you were spreading false information ? I’m always amazed when people completely ignore what is posted directly to them, jumping to something I said without prejudice to someone else. Re-check my post to you again.
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JohnLietzke
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The Saint Posted at 2-11 20:25
john, i like what you said except for this part "....It simply give DJI the discretion to legally do so."

why go thru all the trouble, dji should just say "...but we can void your warranty at any time for any reason whenever we feel like it."  there isn't anything that i am aware of that gives dji this type of discretion to legally do anything they want just because they put it on paper.  certainly if they wrote "place a lumecube on your drone, void your warranty because we tested it and it breaks our drone" then yeah maybe but that's not what you meant i assume.


The Saint,

Thank you for the link.  The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is a very important statute.  But if you actually read Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act it is simply comprised of legal terminology/definitions 15 U.S. Code § 2301 - Definitions.  
Here are two links to legistilation that helps to understand the application of Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
§ 2-316. Exclusion or Modification of Warranties

§ 2-315. Implied Warranty: Fitness for Particular Purpose

Also, each States may have additional Consumer Protection laws which are more stringent, offering more protections to consumers, than the minimum Federal Consumer Protection laws.  In California for example, the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act covers most goods including vehicles, appliances and electronics.

DJI offers an Express Limited Warranty with Exclusions.

Here is a more generally stated summary from Wikipedia of Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.
The Magnuson–Moss Act contains many definitions:
  • A "consumer" is a buyer of consumer goods for personal use. A buyer of consumer products for resale is not a consumer.[2]
  • A "supplier" is any person engaged in the business of making a consumer product directly or indirectly available to consumers.[3]
  • A "warrantor" is any supplier or other person who gives or offers a written warranty or who has some obligation under an implied warranty.[4]
  • A "consumer product" is generally any tangible personal property for sale and that is normally used for personal, family, or household purposes. It is important to note that the determination whether a good is a consumer product requires a factual finding, on a case-by-case basis. Najran Co. for General Contracting and Trading v. Fleetwood Enterprises, Inc., 659 F. Supp. 1081 (S.D. Ga. 1986).
  • A "written warranty" (also called an express warranty) is any written promise made in connection with the sale of a consumer product by a supplier to a consumer that relates to the material and/or workmanship and that affirms that the product is defect-free or will meet a certain standard of performance over a specified time.
  • An "implied warranty" is defined in state law. The Magnuson–Moss Act simply provides limitations on disclaimers and provides a remedy for their violation.
  • Designations:
    • A "full warranty" is one that meets the federal minimum standards for a warranty. Such warranties must be "conspicuously designated" as full warranties. If each of the following five statements is true about a warranty's terms and conditions, it is a "full" warranty:

      • There is no limit on the duration of implied warranties.
      • Warranty service is provided to anyone who owns the product during the warranty period; that is, the coverage is not limited to first purchasers.[5]
      • Warranty service is provided free of charge, including such costs as returning the product or removing and reinstalling the product when necessary.
      • There is provided, at the consumer's choice, either a replacement or a full refund if, after a reasonable number of tries, the warrantor is unable to repair the product.
      • It is not required of consumers to perform any duty as a precondition for receiving service, except notifying that service is needed, unless it can be demonstrated that the duty is reasonable.
    • A "limited warranty" is one that does not meet the federal minimums. Such warranties must be "conspicuously designated" as limited warranties.
  • A "multiple warranty" is part full and part limited.
  • A "service contract" is different from a warranty because service contracts do not affirm the quality or workmanship of a consumer product. A service contract is a written instrument in which a supplier agrees to perform, over a fixed period or for a specified duration, services relating to the maintenance or repair, or both, of a consumer product. Agreements that meet the statutory definition of service contracts, but are sold and regulated under state law as contracts of insurance, do not come under the Act's provisions.
  • Disclaimer or Limitation of Implied Warranties when a service contract is sold:
  • Sellers of consumer products who make service contracts on their products are prohibited under the act from disclaiming or limiting implied warranties.[6] Sellers who extend written warranties on consumer products cannot disclaim implied warranties, regardless of whether they make service contracts on their products. However, sellers of consumer products that merely sell service contracts as agents of service contract companies and do not themselves extend written warranties can disclaim implied warranties on the products they sell.


Warranty and product liablity laws are very complicated and often based when not overt, such as an ovious defect, on legal precedence.  There are also other factors such as intended use, modification which change the operational use/condition, specific statutes that apply to modification which are product/industruy specific in this case aviation and negligence.

The automotive laws which protect consumers from voided warranty for service or equivently aftermarket parts came from violations of The Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890.  The case was based on monopolistic conduct and collusion.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2-12 04:41
Again I find your lack of any proof lets your argument down. Maybe show cases here where something like a skin caused any problems. Yes the forum is owned by dji, but it has never stopped others posting or airing their views. But when you post from what is clearly hearsay then you don't help anyone.

Hallmark007,

I have twice now stated that from user comments regarding their personal experience with DJI Warranty and Refresh that a skin has not voided their warranty.  It is not possible to show proof of a nonexistent situation.

Here is a link from this forum addressing skins and warranty https://forum.dji.com/thread-108149-1-1.html.

Here is a YouTube video that explains how DJI would go about detecting third-party accessories

As Labroides reiterated the language in the warranty is clear and encompassing and does not require the non-DJI product be the cause of the damage, malfunction or loss.
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hallmark007
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JohnLietzke Posted at 2-12 10:35
Hallmark007,

I have twice now stated that from user comments regarding their personal experience with DJI Warranty and Refresh that a skin has not voided their warranty.  It is not possible to show proof of a nonexistent situation.

Again you have shown NO case refused warranty because of use of third party sticker or any other third party hardware or software. Yet your first post Claiming dji is very loose on honouring  warranty still shows not a single case, so my guess is that claim of loose claims of warranty is just another myth and not much point in asking or looking for proof anymore.
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Dangerly
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DJI Natalia Posted at 2-11 22:14
Hi there, for fly safety considerations, it is not recommended to use third-party accessories or software to fly a drone. Should there any issue happens, you are recommended to send the drone in to DJI official repair center for a thorough diagnosis, the proper solution will be provided based on the result of the diagnosis. Thanks for your kind understanding.

Thank you DJI Natalia,

May I ask you to clarify something you wrote? Are you recommending that I never use any third-party accessories or software?

In the case of nighttime flying, the FAA requires lights. Since DJI does not make any nighttime lights, does this mean DJI recommends I never fly my Air 2 at night?
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Labroides
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JohnLietzke Posted at 2-12 10:35
Hallmark007,

I have twice now stated that from user comments regarding their personal experience with DJI Warranty and Refresh that a skin has not voided their warranty.  It is not possible to show proof of a nonexistent situation.


As Labroides reiterated the language in the warranty is clear and encompassing and does not require the non-DJI product be the cause of the damage, malfunction or loss.

Funny .. I thought I was saying exactly the opposite.
Perhaps I should reread what I wrote?
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Labroides
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Dangerly Posted at 2-12 14:25
Thank you DJI Natalia,

May I ask you to clarify something you wrote? Are you recommending that I never use any third-party accessories or software?

You'll rarely get a clear or useful answer to that sort of question.

It's really simple and this thread has only added to your confusion
As I tried to explain to you, you can use whatever accessories you want.
But if there is evidence that non-DJI accessories or modifications were the cause of damage, that's on you and not a warranty issue.


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hallmark007 Posted at 2-12 11:05
Again you have shown NO case refused warranty because of use of third party sticker or any other third party hardware or software. Yet your first post Claiming dji is very loose on honouring  warranty still shows not a single case, so my guess is that claim of loose claims of warranty is just another myth and not much point in asking or looking for proof anymore.

I have never claimed DJI will deny your warranty/refresh claim for a skin or sticker.

From my original post:

"From users on the MavPilot forum it appears that DJI is very loose on honoring warranties when it comes to skins and stickers.  Apparently DJI does not void the warrantee."

A skin is techincally a third-party accessory as is a sticker.  If any non-DJI accessory or modification is on the drone then the status of your warranty is void, as clearly stated in the warranty exclusions, and based on that language DJI shall deny a warranty/Refresh claim.  

Skin/sticker = Third party accessory
Third party accessory = Void warranty

The term loose pertains to an interpretation of a consumer action that voided the warranty, in this case applying a skin or sticker, in which discretion is used to honor the warranty claim despite the warranty having been voided by an action falling under the warranty exclusion statement.  The second statement further reaffirms that DJI does not void the warranty for a skin or sticker.
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Labroides Posted at 2-12 14:40
As Labroides reiterated the language in the warranty is clear and encompassing and does not require the non-DJI product be the cause of the damage, malfunction or loss.
Funny .. I thought I was saying exactly the opposite.
Perhaps I should reread what I wrote?

Labroides you are correct.  
I completely missed the exclusion you referenced was not relevent to the Mavic Air 2 and this thread.  The exclusion is a blanket statement voiding the warranty when used with third-party accessories.  

Warranty Exclusion Third-Party Accesories for the Mavic Air 2
3) Damage caused by using your DJI product together with a non-DJI product or third-party accessory/software that is not authorized by DJI.

DJI has changed the language for the Mavic Air 2 to where simply the use of a third-party accessory voids the warranty.

Mavic Air 2 Warranty/Refresh






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Labroides
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JohnLietzke Posted at 2-12 15:33
You are correct.  I completely missed the exclusion you referenced was not relevent to the Mavic Air 2.

Warranty Exclusion Third-Party Accesories for the Mavic Air 2

DJI has changed the language for the Mavic Air 2 to where simply the use of a third-party accessory voids the warranty.

Perhaps you can point me to somewhere that shows this?
Accessing DJI's web pages from my country, I can't find any reference anywhere to a specific warranty for the Air 2 and the link you used is about Care Refresh, not the warranty (and I can't see any reference to 3rd party anything in it).
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Labroides Posted at 2-12 14:45
You'll rarely get a clear or useful answer to that sort of question.

It's really simple and this thread has only added to your confusion

Thank you. I wish DJI themselves could give such a clear answer.
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The Saint
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Dangerly Posted at 2-12 17:17
Thank you. I wish DJI themselves could give such a clear answer.

there cannot be a clear answer given.  clarity is only received on a case by case basis and ultimate in a courtroom or arbitration between the parties.  unfortunately the drone is not special and will have to operate until the uncertainty just like thousands of other products on the market.
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The Saint Posted at 2-13 09:32
there cannot be a clear answer given.  clarity is only received on a case by case basis and ultimate in a courtroom or arbitration between the parties.  unfortunately the drone is not special and will have to operate until the uncertainty just like thousands of other products on the market.

"there cannot be a clear answer given"

I disagree. I think you gave a clear answer.
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Payen
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Hi updated my mini 4 and its telling me my drone is bound to another account but I got it brand new and registered it to my email had no problems before updates any idea what's happened.
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What about attaching an RID module to your drone to comply with RID requirements for operating under Part 107? It weighs 40.8 grams per specifications.
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