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X5 Pro Bitrate Increase ***PETITION FOR INFO FROM DJI***
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7438 84 2015-10-15
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Whispermode
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***UPDATED POST***


@DJI (Dave, Tim, Ed et al),


Could you please answer the following questions?


1. Can the X5 Pro's recording bitrate be increased for 4K and 1080p?
2. When will it be done?


An official, cited response from DJI HQ is required. Facts to support the answers would be greatly appreciated.


--------------------------------------------------------
***ORIGINAL POST***


Rationalle:

If the bitrate on the X5 Pro was increased to, say:

  • 4K @ ~100Mbps, and;
  • 1080p @ ~50Mbps (it's actually been decreased since the X3 from 45Mbps to 40Mbps (???))



...I would buy one tomorrow. No questions asked.

--------------------------------------------------------
Optional reading:

I'm not going to buy the X5 Raw. Wex has them at £6500 on pre-order, and I'll go to an S900/S1000 + DSLR if I'm going to spend that much. That's, what, ~£3500 for the camera?

Many potential buyers have stated they won't go with the X5 Pro/I1 Pro because of the low bitrate. I'm seeing/hearing vendors' uncomfortable sales pitches as they try and work out the giant chasm between a camera that may not be much better than the X3 and one that's designed for Hollywood, hanging off the bottom of a top-of-the-range toy. Jim Hare - respected forum contributor and outputter of the finest X3 footage you're likely to see - has stated he, too, has concerns about the compression on the X5 Pro (sorry to bring you in, Jim.)

I don't want to start a, "DJI, what was the thinking?" thread. I want to start a, "DJI, please listen to your customers and increase the bitrate on the X5 Pro" petition.

--------------------------------------------------------
Request:

If you agree, please add comments and names below so that Dave, Tim and Ed have something tangible for HQ.


2015-10-15
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drick1804
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Not trying to be a wet blanket but...how many names would you reckon you need in order for the HQ to sit up and listen?
Honestly, you will likely not get a lot from a forum.
I applaud your good intentions, but I doubt the outcome will be what you are looking for.
Good luck!
2015-10-15
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Renaat
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DJI listen to their bank account with a cheap investment to get more money from the Inspire club. They are becoming pretentious. With regrets I am looking for a more friendly service at the competitors that deliver a drone with a decent proved  camera on, realistic footage stocking, longer flying time (more parameters to handle needs more time for perfect shot).  Not mentioning the brand, but you know what I mean. At least they listen to the customer as did Intel to invest in this company. Waiting until you invest in a new Inspire with our requirements.... you will have lost the market of professional users. I feel be cheated with the X5s. The X5R is OK but does not fulfill my requirements. Forget the pro-users.
2015-10-15
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grisnjam
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Signed, I would order a OSMO handle + X5 today if the bitrate was increased to a reasonable amount ...
2015-10-15
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enkhome
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I will not buy the X5 despite the lager sensor and glass
I shall also not buy a Ferrari with a fiat 500 motor
2015-10-15
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Machoman
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ALL cameras which record at 4K resolution including the X3 should be able to do this with 100 Mbps.
2015-10-15
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Whispermode
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@drick1804 - there's been 113 views at the time of me writing this. It's feasible, then, that 113 names could have been on this petition within a few hours.

'We' need to get away from forum 'chatter', which achieves nothing apart from bad feeling, and move as a group to (at least) try and have this request escalated.

Creating the petition achieves a lot because there are only really two possible outcomes:

1. DJI up the bitrate, create happy existing customers, and more new ones
2. DJI don't up the bitrate (with a response saying they can't/won't, or no response)

Both are positive results. Number 1 is obvious, but number 2 gives us some level of closure on the support we're likely to get in the future with regard to the DJI roadmap. Then we can follow Renaat through his research.

Of course, if we don't ask the question as a group force, there will be no answer. So, I don't recognise that as a sensible approach to progression.

Please click the edit button in your post and sign up. What harm can come?
2015-10-15
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gdc2510
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An acceptable bit rate of 50Mb/s for 1080P would imply a bit rate of 4 times that on 4K for the same compression. Therefore I would like to see a minimum 4K bit rate of 200Mb/s on the X5. Sony semi-professional 4K cameras routinely do 600Mb/s.
2015-10-15
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drick1804
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Whispermode Posted at 2015-10-16 05:35
@drick1804 - there's been 113 views at the time of me writing this. It's feasible, then, that 113 na ...


113 views does not necessary equate to 'I agree so here is my signature'. Besides the view counter is flawed, it captures multiple view counts from the same person.  
I think you really need more than those numbers.
Nevertheless, Sure.. if you say so.
All the best on this petition.
2015-10-15
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mixmaven
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The X5 and X3 have an Amberella A9 SOC which has a maximum limit of 60mbps, it cannot be increased on the current camera.   It would be the same as petitioning your car manufacturer to increase the speed of your vehicle to 320kph, when it was only designed for 180kph.  You also have to consider the write speed of the memory card used to record the video.
2015-10-15
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scooterlam
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Count me in. I won't buy an X5 and the X5R we know little about. Not to mention a $5k camera hanging from a quad. One prop fails, theres no hope.
2015-10-15
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vonbaron1
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We just need to move away from DJI if they cannot supple what the buyers want.  Simple math that they may even understand.  I sure am looking to convert the camera to something better.
2015-10-15
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Farnk666
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Whilst the Support guys from DJI who appear here from time to time are great, no-one else from DJI pays the slightest notice as to what is said or posted here.
Your approach is predicated on a false assumption - that DJI as a business has any regard for it's existing user base.

DJI is purely concerned with new sales, hence the aggressive marketing. If engineering purity or delivery of functionality was the goal, this place would be a much happier one.
2015-10-15
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Whispermode
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This is valuable, decision-swaying information. Thanks. Please cite your source (not from individuals in forums).

According to the datasheet for the A9, the chip stats look like this for H.264 encoding:

'H.264 codec BP/MP/HP Level 5.1 and MJPEG'

According to MediaCoder table, 'HP Level 5.1' supports bitrates up to 300Mbps (unless I'm reading it incorrectly, which is possible).

Sandisk UHS-I cards can read 'up to' 90MB/s. 90MB/s is 720Mbps, so ample headroom for what we're asking. The 16GB Lexar card that ships with the Inspire 1 (X3) writes at 25 MB/s (200Mbps), so even that would support an increase.
Disclaimer - I'm no expert on any of the above, but this is information from the horses' mouths, rather than forum chatter which paints a much more negative picture of the possibilities. I (we) want facts so we can make decisions.

Your analogy only stands up if we can officially confirm that the car's speed isn't being limited by the manufacturer.









2015-10-16
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Whispermode
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Farnk666 Posted at 2015-10-16 03:13
Whilst the Support guys from DJI who appear here from time to time are great, no-one else from DJI p ...

...and new sales they would get if the 'Pro' had vital statistics to justify its name.
2015-10-16
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mixmaven
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Whispermode Posted at 2015-10-16 05:18
This is valuable, decision-swaying information. Thanks. Please cite your source (not from individual ...

The 5.1 codec supports a maximum of 200mbps, but I believe DJI is using 4.1 (stated by a DJI employee in the annoucement but haven't checked since) and even if they were using 5.1, the A9 needs to output a secondary video stream to LB for your RC feed AND what people usually don't realize is DJI enabled (from my tests) digital stabilization in the A9.  So, there are multiple processes taking place in the chip, it is not simply encoding a single stream to a card like a gropro.  DJI probably found the hardware, heat, multiple encode streams, stabilization, etc. interfered with operating at more than 60mbps.  I am all for moving to a higher rate, and even put in a direct request with DJI engineering, until I found out the X5 used the A9 SOC.  I don't see any major increase with everything the chip is currently doing, as all other current A9 devices max out around 60mpbs.
2015-10-16
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Whispermode
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mixmaven Posted at 2015-10-16 16:38
The 5.1 codec supports a maximum of 200mbps, but I believe DJI is using 4.1 (stated by a DJI emplo ...

Again, interesting, but please cite your sources:

1. The 5.1 codec maximum of 200Mbps (I'm not seeing that anywhere but may not be looking hard enough)
2. DJI using 4.1 (If so, can firmware change the codec to 5.1?)
3. Secondary video stream (so what? 200Mbps would still give headroom)
4. Your tests proved what?
5. "DJI probably..."
6. What was the response to your direct request with DJI engineering?

Apologies if this is sounding spikey, but it's more important than ever that we get facts from the manufacturer... in writing... to be consumed by the consumer.

Every time more unmoderated bullshit gets written in a forum (not suggesting for a minute that that's what you're doing), it becomes part of the knowledge base, and lazy manufacturers - the type who won't provide manuals for complex front-end OSs that control flying bombs - breathe a sigh of relief as everyone gets off their backs for another day...

2015-10-16
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rockliffe
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I received my X5 yesterday and have only just seen the reduced bitrate when shooting 1080p. What the hell is all that about! It's even slower than the X3. This whole nonsense gets worse by the day!
2015-10-16
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teamnest1
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signed =] Meet our needs !
2015-10-16
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mixmaven
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Whispermode Posted at 2015-10-16 11:33
Again, interesting, but please cite your sources:

1. The 5.1 codec maximum of 200Mbps (I'm not see ...

Can DJI change the codec, sure and they may have, inspect your footage and see for yourself. Second stream concern is not just about mpbs, it is about processing. My tests proved they are using DS, which again requires more memory/processing, which is something DJI has neither confirmed or denied. You are asking for facts that only DJI knows, I am giving you logical reasons, but what do I know?  I could be making all of this up to trick you and help the evil empire of lazy manufacturers you refer to in your posts.  
This isn't just about mpbs, there are a finite number of cycles in the A9 processor and only so much available memory, it cannot do everything it is capable of all at the same time - any more than your computer can start and run every program and game all at once.  You seem to want the facts where very few facts exist. You need to look them up yourself and come to your conclusion.
2015-10-16
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herranzpablo
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im up for the request too.
processor specs apart, im tired of DJ_I offering "PRO" products with consumer specs... If they where going to release a X5, they should have added the adequate hardware for a PRO camera..

Please DJI, take your pro users seriously.
2015-10-16
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capalvch
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Please DJI, hear this Post! I have bought a Phantom/ phantom 2+, Inspire 1, Phantom 3 pro, OSMO, and want to buy the X5!
2015-10-16
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Capt_M
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I'm not sure what is this post about, X5 Pro capable of saving RAW at 1.9 Gbps.. Only regular X5 is limited to 60 Mbps, that is probably based on their implementation of SD card saving at 1x speed.. not sure how easy it is to change that..

2015-10-16
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Whispermode
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Putting this back to the top (as I will at least twice a day). I've updated the post to try and focus the outcome.
2015-10-17
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Whispermode
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Back to the top.
2015-10-17
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Northseasurfer
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Agreed, disappointed at the drop in data rate with the lower resolutions with the x5. The GoPro 4 Black (x3 sensor) was able to output at 65mbs whether at 4K or 2.7K Any chance of upping the data rates for 1080 and 2.7K at least to match the 60mbs of UHD and 4K???
2015-10-17
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Whispermode
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Back to the top.
2015-10-18
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Whispermode
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Back to the top.
2015-10-19
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SimplePanda
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The issues with the X5 extend beyond the bit rate.

- It's 8 bit video. Production quality standard is 10-bit or higher. With CinemaDNG RAW you're getting 12-bit. Not the biggest deal if you're not doing any colour work in post but since the X5 is being pitched to professionals I can't see how anyone at DJI thought 8-bit was acceptable. Show me a "pro" camera from Sony, Canon, ARRI, RED, BMD and I'll show you a camera that's recording in at least 10-bit.

- It's 4:2:0. Pixels are one thing but the X3 and X5 are losing most of their colour data to subsampling. Again, show me a "pro" camera and I'll show you a camera shooting in 4:2:2 or higher. Anything shooting RAW is shooting 4:4:4 by it's nature and all compressed pro cameras from all vendors are shooting 4:2:2.

The bit rate obviously isn't pleasant but it's not the only issues with the X5 given what they're charging for it. It's very much a consumer camera with a pro price tag.

The proof is very much in the pudding. If the X5 was a direct replacement for the X3 (at the same price) nobody would be complaining but it's nowhere near four times the camera the X3 is. I also think we've seen enough X5 footage from both pro and pro-sumer (and consumer) users to feel comfortable coming to this conclusion.

I'll stick with the X3 I already have and I'll wait to see what the X5R can do. Though, as others have said, given it's price, there are probably better solutions.

DJI really dropped the ball with the X5 series, I think.
2015-10-19
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SimplePanda
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Capt_M Posted at 2015-10-17 01:37
I'm not sure what is this post about, X5 Pro capable of saving RAW at 1.9 Gbps.. Only regular X5 is  ...

60Mbps video = 7.5MB/s.

UHS-1 can handle 50MB/s (400Mbps). Certainly not all media will actually handle this reliably but if DJI implemented their SD interface properly then the issue is just having a certified card in the slot, not the card slot on the camera itself.

It's also strange that DJI lists the bitrate of their RAW video camera - you never really see that. It's almost like DJI knows bitrate is important to people...
2015-10-19
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Burlingtonfilms
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Great idea!

But I think the highly compressed, unchanged bit rate from the X3 that is now in the X5, is a planned move on DJIs part.

The X5R will be able to shoot RAW and conform to most popular formats.  If the X5 got any kind of "Pro" bit rate or color space or codec, so many more people would buy the X5 and not the X5R.

I will not buy the X5(mainly because most of the X3/X5 comparisons look almost identical) but I may buy the X5R once the reviews are out.  Being able to shoot RAW in the sky opens so many more doors to higher end productions.  Instead of using the Inspire 1 as a quick master cut, it opens the door to replacing crane, jib, dolly and helicopter shots.  You can sit on a shot longer because the footage it is matching will look similar.
2015-10-19
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Whispermode
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Back to the top.
2015-10-20
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drick1804
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Back to the bottom
2015-10-20
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Whispermode
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drick1804 Posted at 2015-10-21 01:56
Back to the bottom

Thanks for your continued support, drick1804. Let it be known that, when DJI update the X5 Pro to have a higher bitrate, I'll be buying you one as a reward.
2015-10-20
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drick1804
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Whispermode Posted at 2015-10-21 12:57
Thanks for your continued support, drick1804. Let it be known that, when DJI update the X5 Pro to  ...

Sure! Don't mention it! All in a day's work to help a forum member.  
I was ensuring that everyone reads the entire thread and not just the top because the bottom comments are important too.

As I already have an inspire 1, I don't really need an X5 Pro.... but it will be nice if you got me an X5 cam standalone as a reward. Thanks in advance!!!!!!  
2015-10-20
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Arctictern
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I personally realise what a great all-round platform the Inspire 1 is, badly let down by its camera. I don't expect everything to be perfect considering the price bracket as broadcast camera equipment is extremely expensive in comparison. I know, I have been buying it for years.

Saying this I would gladly pay the price for the new X5 camera and probably a some more if it would just get rid of that god awful flickering in any shot with a lot of detail in it like trees and grass. I see the bit rate for HD acquisition an the X5 has even been lowered compared to the X3!!!!

This is completely unacceptable for a package that is labelled as "Pro"

I feel that at present there is nowhere near enough improvement between the X3 and X5 to justify the extra investment and I am really not comfortable spending all that money on a X5R to hang below a quad with very little redundancy. Quite frankly I don't need RAW files for probably 99% of my work anyway and I shoot a load of broadcast and commercial work. RAW is over kill in the other direction and not really what the Inspire is all about. I also don't want huge files to deal with at the end of a shoot. There should be a camera set up in between the X3's 60Mbps and the X5R RAW files and this is where the X5 should sit. As others have stated, should I want the kind of quality and investment offered by the X5R I would be using an entirely different set up and mounting a broadcast camera on it.

All I, and I'm guessing many others want is the excellent and simple Inspire 1 set up with a camera that offers reasonable, flicker free footage and I'm happy. I'd even be happy to pay extra for it.
2015-10-21
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gybo102
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Put me on the list

"The A9 also has built-in support for HDR video capture by combining two frames - thus 1080p120 becomes 1080p60 with HDR enabled"
http://www.anandtech.com/show/66 ... -gopro-hero-3-black

Would be nice if they could implement things like that. The power is there, just need to put the time into it. please give us what we want / deserve for the money.
2015-10-21
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ftimster
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im in sign me up
2015-10-21
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Whispermode
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Back to the top.
2015-10-22
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Whispermode
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...so, I was at the Commercial UAV show in London on Wednesday.

DJI were there so I thought I'd go and say hello, first thing. The conversation went something like this:

Me: Do you mind if I ask some questions about the X5?
DJI: Sure.
Me: How are you justifying calling the X5 Pro, "Pro"?
DJI: How do you mean?
Me: Well, it's not a great deal different to the X3 aside from its price tag (I mentioned bitrate, 8-bit colour and subsampling, but was met with a blank look.)
DJI: It shoots in 4K
Me: OK... When will the X5 RAW be available and how much will it cost?
DJI: It's available on the site
Me: Oh wow, since this morning?
DJI: No, since the launch, let me check (checks iPhone whilst I tell her that if you click 'Buy', there's no option available for the RAW). Oh yes, it's not there.
Me: ...and how much will it cost?
DJI: They haven't told us the prices yet.
Me: Thanks for your time.

Minus some detail, that's how it went. True story. The contrast between this experience and some of the other vendors - one in particular mentioned early in this thread - was pretty amazing.

Anyone else there?


2015-10-24
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