Geebax Posted at 2016-1-5 13:57
There is nothing in the sale contract, either written or implied, that when you buy the Phantom you ...

[Removed Duplicated Post]

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-5 14:05
The argument is not "flying it everywhere" its about flying it specifically where you intend to fly ...

My wife specialises in industrial law. The key thing is not to get trapped into this thinking that DJI designed this geofencing idea, it was called for by various aviation regulatory bodies. The zones in Australia for example, would have been given to DJI by CAA, and frankly, they don't care if you never get to fly anywhere.

I have looked at some of the zones, and they make no sense at all. There is a beaut one off the coast near Cairns that is in the middle of a patch of ocean, no idea at all what it is meant to be covering. But as has been mentioned earlier, if you report them, they will be reviewed, nothing is set in concrete yet.

And more importantly, there are no red zones whatsoever over Australia, so there is actually nowhere you cannot fly.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-5 15:02
My wife specialises in industrial law. The key thing is not to get trapped into this thinking that ...

With you on this one Geebax - if the CAA/CASA could enforce Carte-blanche  I'm sure the whole of the country we love so much would be covered in shades of red and/or yellow. However I also think that DJI is bending over backwards a bit too much, and rather then intelligently looking at "recommendations"  from CAA etc. have gone ahead and just pasted in the areas. - i.e no sensible ot intelligent thought.

I really hope that DJI work "Intelligently" with users and reviews the areas to relax the yellow zones.

My real Concern is not lack of Red Zones, but Proliferation of Yellow in Australia.

I'm sometimes driving in Rural Victoria and I don't have cell reception (even on Telstra) but as I have the P3 in the trunk of the car I may decide, just then, to park & fly to get pics of the sunset or lovely scenery and get no-fly/restricted in a "yellow zone" just because I cannot Authorise there and then.

A couple of use cases:
> What if the DJI servers that "Authorise" go down for a few hours/days or are hit by a hacker? (its happned before to huge organisations like Sony, JP Morgan etc..) - does that mean we cannot fly at all in ANY zone?

> What is stopping the current Yellow Zones being turned in the future to a new colour, Say Amber, because someone at DJI or CAA had a bad dream the night before, that restricts flights (for no apparent reason)  on certain days/hours etc...

Question that just popped in my head: Can I fly Atti-mode without authorising? (as it does not need a GPS Lock?)

I just hope Common Sense at DJI prevails,.... but if it does not, I don't want to be stuck with a 1.2 kg paperweight> I would like to have another way out, like getting a refund and embarking on a platform that "Safely & Lawfully" does what I actually want it to do.

The truth is that the "Bottom Line" always inspires companies to make changes. - I reckon if a few customers returned their Quads as "Not fit for Purpose" Or other Valid reason, and DJI's Sales dropped from less customers wanting to buy from them due to this requirement to Authorise in unsensible areas, they would be "motivated" to make changes *Very* Fast!

I for one would have thought twice about my purchase of a P3P if i had known that a few months later my +AU$2000 purchase would not fly unless I would have to authorise a flight every 3 days from the field next to my house.

If we sit around and just take on all the changes thinking "She'll be Right!!" then we can eventually wave goodbye to a much loved Hobby, and let redbacks use the P3 shell as a home.

All my flying is done in rural Victoria, and very little of it has yellow zones over it, so I am not really that concerned. I would however, like them to extend the period of authorisation to a month, then I could authorise any region I thought necessary in advance of visiting there.

As for DJI simply accepting the CAA/CASA zones, what else can they do? Some d*ckhead at CAA/CASA was probably asked for zone maps and just gave up what he though would be fine for the job. You can bet you arse that no thought went into it. But DJI are entirely at their mercy in this area. As I said before, CAA/CASA really don't want us flying anywhere, so I hold little hope that the zones will be reduced. The best thing is that you can authorise them, and if the time period for authorisation is increased, then it is not going to bother me.

Flying atti mode wil not circumvent the zones, the GPS is still working and advising the GoApp which is probably responsible for checking the zones.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-5 16:07
All my flying is done in rural Victoria, and very little of it has yellow zones over it, so I am not ...

I agree - a month seems much more sensible - 3 days is going to get a bit frustrating.

I have just edited and added a few points to my post above that I thought up a few minutes ago.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-5 16:13
I agree - a month seems much more sensible - 3 days is going to get a bit frustrating.

I have jus ...

I have just written to the address given by Brendan, outlining my concerns.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-5 02:57
There is nothing in the sale contract, either written or implied, that when you buy the Phantom you ...

I get the impression you are, or you've chosen yourself to become the corporate spin doctor for DJI. You seem very protective of this idea, however you still haven't come up with any pros that I have asked peoples input on. I'm sure many people would like to hear some, so please go ahead....

Just read all this posts and understand completely why the geofencing might be the only (?) future sollution for flight safety of personal drones.
...on the other side if the fun factor and the freedom to use my drone when and where I want (outside the forbidden places like airports, big crowds etc.) then I'll probably sell it.
To much of a hassle for a few flights.

Why don't they just lower the defcon levels..
make green and yellow free to fly.
Orange zones requires authentication certs. Eg, special marathon days, days when football games are played.
Red zones are airports and restricted airspace like parliament buildings etc.  
And maybe even add black zones where you just get arrested immediately.

OR

Dji currently have all our data - when we start the go app, it logs in. DJI already have our flight logs. Why cant they just send us a simple email and ask the reason for flying near or in a NFZ. If fail to comply 3 times, you account gets grounded.

aliios Posted at 2016-1-3 06:47
3/4 of a country??  Ok here we are !!!  All Cyprus is a NFZ !!!! No one can fly there !!!!!!

Just ...

Hi ,
Please don't be worried . The green areas will only have  warnings shown in the DJI Go App . You can still fly in it . As for the yellow areas , you'll just get it unlocked before your flight .

quanthonytrang Posted at 2016-1-5 22:17
Why don't they just lower the defcon levels..
make green and yellow free to fly.
Orange zones requi ...

Completely agree on "lowering the Defcon Levels" - That's why I have been saying I hope DJI relax the yellow zones. So one can still Fly in a yellow zone following a warning/check box that you have to accept before flying. A bit like when you try to fly above 120m/400feet. Now the interesting point is that you can still fly above 120m and  up to 500m after accepting the warning. (This behavior makes a lot of sense! - As for myself - I have set my ceiling at the legal 120m, and till now never really needed to raise it).

And/or as suggested earlier; PLEASE allow 1 month Authorisation (instead of the absurd 3 days).

I feel that 99.9% of the pilots on this Forum who possibly also make a very high percentage of all Phantom/inspire pilots are sensible people. - if they are asked to be careful about flying in a certain location or asked not to fly due a good reason. they will respect the instruction. - its the 1%-2% of pilots that are either not properly informed or are just plain irresponsible that need the slap on the wrist!

As an example, I honestly think that the pilot in Hawaii who flew near President Obama's motorcade was genuinely not aware that the president would be there, and immediately grounded his bird when asked. - Had he been given a pre-warning through the Go app, I am sure that he would have chosen either not to fly there and then, or taken the bird elsewhere to fly.

DJI-Patrick Posted at 2016-1-5 12:10
Hi ,
Please don't be worried . The green areas will only have  warnings shown in the DJI Go App . ...

What are you doing to address for no phone signal, apart from pre-authorisation few days before. As i'm sure you are aware from these post a lot of drone pilots like to be spontaneous or they come across good ares but alas, no signal

Is serious consideration being given to extend the ridiculous 3 days re-actiavation, I personally and probably many others would like to see this extended greatly. But again this  won't address the problems of Yellow zones popping up unexpected, and people being caught out.

Would it also not be possible to put the reason why these areas have been given Yellow zones, as there is no justification or reason to why they have been added, some just seem random and without thought.

GQ. Posted at 2016-1-4 00:23
How do we unlocked the Authorization Zones with the App ?

Please check the instruction to unlock the Yellow areas : http://www.dji.com/flysafe/geo-system/details#unlocking

DJI-Patrick Posted at 2016-1-5 23:26
Please check the instruction to unlock the Yellow areas : http://www.dji.com/flysafe/geo-system/de ...

Hi DJI-Patrick

Really glad you have been reading this thread - Hope you have or will get the time to read most of it as some very interesting points and important concerns have been raised.

For example: I'm sometimes driving in Rural Victoria and I don't have cell reception. but as I have the P3 in the trunk of the car I may at the spur of the moment decide, just then, to park & fly to get pics of the sunset or lovely scenery. (which is exactly why I bought my P3 from you).  

Do I get no-fly/restricted in a "yellow zone" just because I have no ability to Authorise there and then?


Please Note: I have captured Some Of my Best and Most Senic shots with the P3, just like that - on the spur of the moment!

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-5 20:23
What are you doing to address for no phone signal, apart from pre-authorisation few days before. A ...

You can submit your application as an appointment via website before your flight .

DJI-Patrick Posted at 2016-1-5 23:39
You can submit your application as an appointment via website before your flight .

But Sir....., In the nicest possible way....., You DONT GET THE POINT!.... You have missed mine and Bat Drones Point..

Its Spur Of the moment!!!.... or as he put it " Spontanious"  We DIDNT know we were going to stop at that location until we stopped and decided to fly to take a shot of the sunset.

Unless we have a time machine, in our pockets, that takes us back in time to plan the flight - It Cannot Be Done!!!..
You Cannot submit application as an appointment via website before the time of the flight that you are already flying in an area with no cell reception!*




* Did I get that right? or do I need to look-up Einstein's theoryof Relativity again - was it General or Special.... Hmmmmm! That reminds me., I Must finish building that time machine Yesterday!!.....!

DJI-Patrick Posted at 2016-1-5 12:39
You can submit your application as an appointment via website before your flight .

You have missed the entire point of what I just asked you ? I understand that you can pre authorise which sounds crazy away for a hobby but please re-read my post.

I am talking about spontaneous flying with to phone signal

I also want to know if improvements for the authorisation zones are being considered, by ways of extending from 3 days.

Thanks

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-5 07:44
You have missed the entire point of what I just asked you ? I understand that you can pre authoris ...

I replied earlier but would like to summarize again:

Agree with above posts, activating yellow zones with internet every 3 days is too restrictive. I'm ok with large airports, military bases but small airports don't need a 5 mile yellow zone -  take a look at the FAA approach and departure procedures for a sample of these airports and you will find a mile or 2 is sufficient for small general aviation traffic. Its the fact that you are adding too conservative 5 mile keepouts for small airports covering large areas of the country, combined with the activation process that I have an issue with.

Question to any Lawyer that knows  Australian Consumer Law (ACL): I quote:

Under Consumers Rights and Obligations;
The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) requires businesses to provide consumer guarantees for consumer goods and services they sell.
Specifically:- Businesses that sell goods guarantee that those goods:
- come with undisturbed possession, so no one has the right to take the goods away from or to prevent the consumer from using them.

Question: If I cannot fly the machine in a zone that I previously could when I bought the machine due to the fact that DJI has now prevented me (the consumer) from using it. (quoted in red above)
Than (I quote the law): "The consumer can choose to reject the goods and obtain a full refund or replacement."

I think this Clearly means that DJI would owe me a full refund (under Australian Law) if I choose to reject the P3 due to the Geofence update that prevents me from using the goods. (see Mine and Bat Drones Example in the thread above of how we are spontanously prevented from flying/using the goods)

My home town is almost all yellow and the green parts are actually within the yellow areas?

There is 1 major airport located in Perth and have a look at the Map?!? Wow

I am still baffled by this!?! how are we supposed to be creative and spontaneous when we have to pre authroise the flights or have cell phone connection?
DJI should stick to just major airports and stadiums. There is surely a better way about this and to be honest i dont think DJI have thought very hard at all about it.

DJI Patrick - Where do i leave feedback on particular areas for DJI to review?

I'm really interested in this because I live near many airports or landing strips since I live in/near farming areas that use airplanes to dust crops. I also live closer than 5 miles from a major airport so does that mean I would not even be able to fly indoors if I wanted to without getting clearance?  

Only thing is that where in the heck are you guys finding these maps at showing the zones where we can or can not fly? I thought maybe it would be on my iPhone/iPad when in the Go App but I couldn't find it anywhere and I am running the newest app version.

thumb Posted at 2016-1-5 14:55
I'm really interested in this because I live near many airports or landing strips since I live in/ne ...

http://www.dji.com/flysafe/geo-system/unlock


And yes you will have to unlock at anytime you are flying in a yellow zone even indoors, because the GPS will still recognise you are in that area.

Well, going to that link takes me to my login page but the map appears for about 1 second and then goes back to the login page. How do I view a map? There's a link button to create a Unlock History but that doesn't do anything probably because I haven't unlocked anything yet.

This really seems to be an annoying thing that they are doing although I realize it's for safety. I've been flying RC planes, jets, helicopters for over 30 years and I do fly according to the laws/rules. I'll probably just go back to the last version and not worry about the zones since I know where and how to fly anyway safely. No reason to be limited to flying from someone who decided where I could that is 1500000000 miles away.

How cool!!!!!!...... I have just checked The Authorisation Page has already stopped working!!!!... I cannot see a map!
http://www.dji.com/flysafe/geo-system/unlock

Imagine this happening to thousands of customers trying to actually fly on the field or plan a flight.
We will all get a standard response from DJI, something on the lines of : "Due to technical problems we are not able to service your request, we apologise for the inconvenience " = people cannot fly their Quads that day..!

DJI is well on the Road to piss off a lot of its customer base!!!
So what happens if/when:
- Authorisation servers have to be brought down to do Sw updates or Maintenance.
- Authorisation servers are unavailable due to peaks in usage.
- Networks are down. Downlink or uplink LAN or WAN.
- if Servers suffer a hack or are compromised.

A few weeks ago a number of people could not log on to the forum or through the go App because DJI had an issue with their email authentication servers. It was a minor inconvenience, not being able to post messages for a day or two, but al least the P3 still worked.

Imagine if something like that happened after you had travelled an hour or so to get to a scenic location, and your P3 refused to get off the ground!!!

I'm sorry to say so but this bears all the hallmarks of trying to organise a pissup in a brewery.

Geofencing has just not been thought through properly yet!!!!

thumb Posted at 2016-1-5 16:02
Well, going to that link takes me to my login page but the map appears for about 1 second and then g ...

How stange? I just cliked the link and it took me to the map, and I wasn't logged in. Just try googling it, I found it by typing in dji geofence.

Wow, I live right on the line of a Yellow Zone I mean literally my house is just in the circle (which is a huge circle by the way).  The circle is because of a rural airport in a little bitty farming county that flies out maybe 2 planes a week.  So I really have to get authorization to fly a drone in my yard because of this?  This is insane.

I honestly believe this Idea is going to backfire on DJI... The only people that I can see that are going to tolerate these type of restrictions are amateur hobbyist. 99 percent of your commercial users are simply going to purchase another brand or else have a bird custom built. All people want is a good looking drone with a nice camera and gimbal....  People do not want to have to ask you for permission to fly,,,,,, PERIOD.  After I purchase a product I view it as mine... what i do with it is my responsibility be it good or bad. If I choose to purchase this geo service thats fine......I am willing to bet however that most folks will not be interested in such a service. no commercial users anyway.

Sadly sometimes the stock prices have to fall a bit for a company to get the Idea. While this kind of envasive oversight might be the norm in China,  Americans simply aren't going to go for it...

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-4 23:02
My wife specialises in industrial law. The key thing is not to get trapped into this thinking that ...

"I have looked at some of the zones, and they make no sense at all. There is a beaut one off the coast near Cairns that is in the middle of a patch of ocean, no idea at all what it is meant to be covering. But as has been mentioned earlier, if you report them, they will be reviewed, nothing is set in concrete yet. "

The areas off the coast (at least the ones I have seen in my area of the US) are restricted/controlled flight zones. Either military controlled or used for international flight routes. They are published on the aeronautical maps used by pilots. Most people would be surprised at how much airspace is "controlled." how this may or may not apply to small, low altitude drones is a separate issue.

You have made several comments stating these zones are government dictated and implied the initiative is being mandated by the government - specifically the US FAA. There are some issues with your assumption.

In the US, the FAA cannot unilaterally (and secretly) reach out to a specific company and dictate rules. There is a process. Supposedly, the FAA has been working on drone "rules" for some time now. Their heads are still up their collective backends.

The FAA cannot tell DJI what rules are for their products. They would have to make a policy in the proper way, release that policy to the public and they require ALL manufacturers to follow that policy in the same way.

Maybe the government in your country can force secret, back room mandates on foreign companies. It doesn't work like that in the US. Even if the FAA tried something like this, they have no power to enforce it upon a manufacturer. That would require a different process and a different agency to stop the import of the devices. The FAA has no power to regulate the importation or sale of these devices. They only claim the ability to regulate their USE (they will go after the operator, if a US citizen).

The restricted and authorization zones I have seen in the US certainly did NOT come from the government. If it did, there would be considerably more "red" on the map. This was obviously complied by a non-government source, using aeronautical charts and other (apparently inaccurate) data. The restrictions do not match up with any rules or laws currently in effect.  Frankly, I am more inclined to believe the "some 16 year old" theory. There are too many problems with the data - some areas should not require authorization and other areas should be red.

As it stands, some flyers will not be able to fly in perfectly safe areas, and others are likely to get in big trouble flying in highly restricted areas which do not require any authorization.


Just to add.. the scary thing is what happens when the goernment DOES weigh in on these maps. They will all want to add plenty of "red" zones. It is highly likely that the map wil become more restrictive when the govenrment areas are added to the DJI areas.

Whoaaaaaa!! Hold on there Luke Skywalker! I just watched the video of DJI explaining how the Geofence will work. If you are flying and go into a no-fly zone, your Phantom will automatically land or drop down below the suggested 400' elevation. There is no way I will stand for anything like that, take away my ability to fly my aircraft and land it without knowing what it's going to land in too? No frigging way!

DJI I suggest you drop this idea right now or there will be so many lawsuits due to the fact that you were responsible for landing an aircraft say into a busy roadway hitting a car causing a fatal crash or something else. Talking about irresponsible.

BTW, I was finally able to look at my surrounding area where I live and I am out of any no-fly zones so I shouldn't have to worry, but what if I was in one. Not happy about this Geofence idea at all.

thumb Posted at 2016-1-5 18:25
Whoaaaaaa!! Hold on there Luke Skywalker! I just watched the video of DJI explaining how the Geofenc ...

It's going to be chaos in the sky. We really haven't touch upon all the glitches and bugs that will cause a lot of problems.

And your right the thought of my drone randomly landing becuase the local kite flying (and I've checked thete is an area near me that has a resticted zone due to kites) have popped up a restriction zone and my poor bird lands somehwere dangerous. I shan't be responsible i'll tell you that.

Which government organization provided the information concerning which areas are to be NFZs?  Is this something DJI came up with by themselves?  If so, what criteria was used to ensure the areas were truly legitimate?

I understand the FAA rules for flying safely and staying out of airports but to build geofences based off someone's "OOOHHHH, that looks like a good place to put one" is way too vague for one person or group of people who do not live in the area to come up with.  

If I didn't have an issue with the battery shutting off I would stay with the 1.5 firmware too.

jeffreyfjohnson Posted at 2016-1-6 08:15
Which government organization provided the information concerning which areas are to be NFZs?  Is th ...

You can be absolutely certain that DJI did not come up with the map of zones themselves. Think about it - do you really think they just invent them for each country?

Someone provided maps of these zones to DJI, and I would bet my nuts that DJI were approached by various government agencies, in various countries to come up with a way to stop people flying into restricted areas.

After all, they are a privately owned Chinese company, they don't need to bow to any political pressure, and being Chinese, can thumb their noses at any other government if they wish.

But they do want to be seen as responsible, hence the fact that they are PROPOSING this geofence system. And you can also bet that they have been singled out by those government agencies because they are the largest manufacturer and seller of drones. And the signals that would have been given to them would be: "Sort this out voluntarily or we will regulate you out of existence'. Put in a more polite way of course.

And before all you Americans come screaming in saying the FAA can't do that, maybe, but other countries sure can, and nothing stops the agencies from making the threat.

Please keep in mind, this is a PROPOSAL at this point, not fact, and DJI have already said they are willing to listen to ideas or suggestions on the subject. I have used the email link to voice my concerns, have you?

And under the proposal, 99% of the zones do NOT stop you from flying in them, you are simply required to authorise yourself to fly in them. So please stop with the bleating about DJI preventing you from flying your drone.

do NOT stop you from flying in them, you are simply required to authorise yourself to fly in them. So please stop with the bleating about DJI preventing you from flying your drone.

They will stop you from flying if your in the middle of no where, and haven't got signal. And please don't mention pre-authorsiation, because maybe unlike you, alot of flyers are sponataneous and travel around with their drones.

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-6 10:42
do NOT stop you from flying in them, you are simply required to authorise yourself to fly in them. S ...

OK, have it your way. let's forget that this is a proposed system, not even implemented and they are looking for ways to improve it. Like I said before, stop bleating and voice your concerns through the channel provided. If you don't do that, you are pissing in the wind.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-6 03:31
How cool!!!!!!...... I have just checked The Authorisation Page has already stopped working!!!!... I ...

The server going down is a valid point. If the server crashes, everyone is grounded.
Now think of this. On the other end of the spectrum, FAA/CAA/CASA decides to ground all air traffic for some particular reason. They ask DJI to mask the country with a yellow/red zone. No Phantom 3 will be able fly. DJI now essentially is in control of your P3.

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-6 10:42
do NOT stop you from flying in them, you are simply required to authorise yourself to fly in them. S ...

Solution(s)...
Connect a physical telephone line to a wifi ADSL router and run it off your car battery. Don't worry, Copper twisted phone lines are thin and light weight.

Or maybe nominate 3 of your mates that is always online and leave them your DJI account details and hope that you have at least 2G reception to call them or sms the GPS co-ordinates.

Or maybe build a script that authorize every part of the world where there is no reception.

Or maybe just build a time machine.

I like the time machine idea..  It's simpler, as it should be easier to build a time machine then implement geofence..


Also because our P3's will be quite useless after geofencing. ....Besides we could use the time machine again yesterday.

Hey Geebax,  
I want to ask a genuine question. Apologies in advance if I'm out of line, because I don't mean to offend, I just want to know,,..

Do you work for DJI?

There is of course nothing wrong if you are affiliated with DJI - that's perfectly good. It's just that I cannot understand the angle you are coming from.

Again sorry in advance, but you seem to be supporting them through some quite bizarre reasons, so I was just wondering.

The authorization doesn't bother as much as the app taking over and landing your aircraft if it accidentally flies into a restricted zone. I would rather it go RTH if anything.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-6 11:36
Hey Geebax,  
I want to ask a genuine question. Apologies in advance if I'm out of line, because I d ...

No, it is a fair question and no, I do not work for DJI. My position on all this is not hard to explain. I believe Geofencing is inevitable, so we should get used to it, but at the same time, while it is in development, use the opportunity to have input to the process. We have been invited to do this by Brendan Shulma on the first page of this thread. And while some parts of the proposal are not well thought out, it is not finalised as yet, so I hold hope it can be improved.

I have also been around long enough to realise that controls over new technology are always lagging behind the technology and there is no point at all in getting my knickers knotted over something I cannot control. The best you can hope for is to be able to have input to the regulation process.