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The FAA's Mandatory Drone Registration Rules are Illegal
1383 33 2015-12-31 19:45:18
trip3980
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    The FAA's Mandatory Drone Registration Rules are Illegal  
Published on Dec 31, 2015
In this  interview with drone and sUAS attorneys Enrico Schaefer and Jonathan Rupprecht, the consensus is clear.  The FAA's mandatory drone registration rules  violate Section 336 of the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 and the Administrative Procedures Act. A  legal analysis of the registration rule by drone attorney Jonathan Rupprecht.

This new FAA involvement in drones is a nightmare.  Please share this with everyone.  FAA is going to hinder the development and inovative aspects of drone use for everyone so much so that we may start seeing slective targeting of fines and arest being made to creative individuals.  this could distroy the camera drone indestry in a massive scale to where only the privlaged few can use the drones as long as the FAA feels you are worthy in their eyes to use such a thing.  I was hearing fines as little as 27,000 to 500,000.  This is freaking me out big time.  




2015-12-31 19:45:18
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Sir Shepherd
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trip3980 - thank you for sharing this with us here on the forum. Much appreciated!
2015-12-31 20:05:20
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trip3980
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Sir Shepherd Posted at 2015-12-31 20:05
trip3980 - thank you for sharing this with us here on the forum. Much appreciated!

Please share this with every one you know the more people are aware the more we can make a difference.  I am so worried about the future of communication.  Its making me shake.  I really feel 1984.  You know whats really bad is several years ago I talked with a drone company who does Arial photography and the FAA told them they saw their website and they said if they didn't shut down they would target them and make their lives miserable.  they where testing us out long before this took place.  and I mean like 5 years ago I think.  this was going to happen.  :/     The reality is they are testing the complacency of the public to go along with what ever they dictate.  
2015-12-31 20:11:50
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Sir Shepherd
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I understand and agree! Trust me I have expressed my views on this forum concerning the FAA ruling, more than you can imagine and I've had my fair share of arguments too! Our government is choking the life out of us. I don't agree with the FAA. I also don't agree with the idiots out there doing stupid things. But go after the bad not all the good!
2015-12-31 20:42:19
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LOL. I spent a career in law enforcement, dealing with attorneys who disagree with each others interpretation of the same laws. I would not hang my hat on these two lawyers' opinions against the battery of lawyers the FAA employs just to go after you and I. Register and get over it.

Unless you are an aviation attorney, and are willing to provide free legal representation for the misguided souls who'll follow your advice, I would refrain from giving legal advice here.
2016-1-1 11:05:03
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trip3980 Posted at 2015-12-31 21:11
Please share this with every one you know the more people are aware the more we can make a differe ...

"I talked with a drone company who does Aerial photography and the FAA told them they saw their website and they said if they didn't shut down they would target them" If the company doesn't have a 333 then I agree with the FAA . I spent hundreds of dollars to ensure my business operates legally (aviation insurance, local business license, etc.) and have little sympathy for any commercial illegal operation.
2016-1-1 11:17:23
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trip3980
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LICENSED PILOT Posted at 2016-1-1 11:05
LOL. I spent a career in law enforcement, dealing with attorneys who disagree with each others inter ...

this is what I fear most.  the only people that will be able to fight a bad corrupt legal system ether has to be an attorney or a lawyer.  But regardless a law is only good as the people who follow them.  If no one follows the law then it is no longer a law.  
2016-1-1 13:25:21
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trip3980
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LICENSED PILOT Posted at 2016-1-1 11:17
"I talked with a drone company who does Aerial photography and the FAA told them they saw their we ...

If you watched the video their is nothing in the law that required you to do such things several years ago. even congress permeated it the law is not following Congregational guidelines.  What the FAA is doing is against policy and regulations set forth by congress I doubt FAA will win the battle.  
2016-1-1 13:28:20
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trip3980
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PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-1 13:32
Hundreds? Wow ! You've been lucky.

Here in the UK, we've had to pay thousands for the same privil ...

I just wanted to point out that people who go through paying and the traning forces the industry to dwindle in creatively and economically.  This will cause DJI sales to suffer greatly.  The reality is historically public use of drones have not contributed to major deaths or accidents.  This is purely political  and control nothing more nothing less.  Government just needs to get out of the public business doesn't need to be a nanny every time some new hip thing comes out.  
2016-1-1 13:52:38
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trip3980 Posted at 2016-1-1 14:25
this is what I fear most.  the only people that will be able to fight a bad corrupt legal system e ...

" to fight a bad corrupt legal system " Says who? Two attorneys with a personal agenda?

When a federal judge rules the FAA rules are "corrupt" then you'll have a persuasive case. Attorneys will utter any nonsense you wish to hear so long as you pay...
2016-1-1 16:13:08
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Farnk666
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Ludicrous thread, I'd be more concerned about the expanded NFZ 'features' that are about to hit us all.
It's one thing to put your details on a govt register, completely another for a manufacturer to dictate and control where and when you use the product you paid for!
2016-1-1 16:46:35
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LICENSED PILOT Posted at 2016-1-1 16:13
" to fight a bad corrupt legal system " Says who? Two attorneys with a personal agenda?

When a fed ...

I think you are giving the goverment too much credit.  the goverment is getting too big.  and with all the stunts they have pulled over the years I am surprised people still trust them at all.   I will bet my life that this situation will get out of control with these regulations and fees.  
2016-1-1 17:15:57
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PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-1 15:26
I disagree.

People who go through paying and the training are upholding the industry and contribut ...

Have you seen uber?  Uber was created because the average joe could not afford their own taxi license.  Truth is this goverment keeps standing in the way of innovation and creativity.  this is a fact. Not sure how in Gods name people still trust the goverment after all the mess that is on the news.   
2016-1-1 17:19:33
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trip3980 Posted at 2016-1-1 18:15
I think you are giving the goverment too much credit.  the goverment is getting too big.  and with ...

Sorry I don't share your doomsday, anti-government view. Don't think the men-in-black are planning the new world order via a drone takeover.
2016-1-1 18:14:01
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trip3980 Posted at 2016-1-1 18:15
I think you are giving the goverment too much credit.  the goverment is getting too big.  and with ...

Sorry I don't share your doomsday, anti-government view. Don't think the men-in-black are planning the new world order via a drone takeover.
2016-1-1 18:14:34
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PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-1 17:29
No. I've not seen uber. Do these uber drivers carry no licence, no insurance and have no training a ...

Uber pays for for all the regulation bs that's why its the worlds largest cab company.  My point here is this we where fine before FAA got involved why do we need it now?  Government does nothing good for business in fact it hinders business and growth.  Don't believe me then why are all the businesses and manufactures in china or god knows where else.  Because our goverment regulates the hell out of US businesses.  There are over 28 million businesses in the united states only 1.6 million higher more then 5 people the rest are non employer businesses.  We are already in a shit tone of trubble in this country and its because people think we need to some how regulate everything.  We already have laws dont' follow those laws you get in trouble having some FAA tag is not going to make you follow the law just regulate you as an individual.  the law does not make people safer it does not improve anything.  its meant to slow down or hinder progress.  You act like having this license is some how a badge of honer like some how it makes you an expert because you have it.  I am not doubting your skills here but I am making a point that goverment has gone to far and while you don't see it now you will feel it in a few years just watch.  
2016-1-1 18:17:50
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LICENSED PILOT Posted at 2016-1-1 18:14
Sorry I don't share your doomsday, anti-government view. Don't think the men-in-black are planning ...

You haven't been watching the news have you?  
2016-1-1 18:18:56
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Sir Shepherd
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LICENSED PILOT Posted at 2016-1-1 13:05
LOL. I spent a career in law enforcement, dealing with attorneys who disagree with each others inter ...

@LICENSED PILOT - If I didn't know better, I'd bet that you are employed by the FAA or in relation of some sort?

Curious, what is the name of your company? After all what do you have to hide???
2016-1-1 21:09:31
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Continued restrictions by the manufacturer, or the identification of users in of geo space who override the prescribed restrictions should be our real concern. DJI is revising our already purchased product and changing things to placate an authority in their largest sales market. You can opt out of the upgrades, but there goes the warranty and guarantee of reliable performance, or so they insinuate.  I'm all for safety, education, proper regulation and accountability but this has become something of an over reach by the FAA and others. Any one operating commercially should have insurance, training and licenses just like any other businesses. More concerned about what DJI is doing firmware wise to change my flying experience. Auto updates are off.
2016-1-2 05:28:10
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PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-1 20:50
I agree completely and I have been arguing right from the moment I heard about the FAA's propose ...

I think your confusing law = education.  It does not.  The community can help with  education.  The law can ONLY regulate and take that's it.  The law is not a preventative measure which people fail to understand.  For example Hunting.  Hunting is where their is a limited resource of animals we need laws in place to regulate the amount of animals people can take in a year because if it is not done then we will not have any animals. Likewise the FAA regulates air space.  We drone operators must operate safely with in known air space.  Compulsory education which is what I think your referring to not the law is still a violation of peoples rights in the united states.  It is like saying you have to learn how to skate board or learn how to fly a kite.  BTW if a kite is more then a half a pound you have to register it under the FAAs new rules.  People can exist with out the goverment we don't need all these laws to make society better.  Just because drones are the new fad doesn't mean the goverment needs to get in our business.  We already have very strict rules in place for people who damage or destroy people property.  If someone is dumb enough to do those two things then they deserve to go to jail. And despite what you may think what the FAA did was in fact illegal.  They did not use the proper channels to make their new regulations.  this is done all in the sake of the almighty dollar and control.  Don't let any one make you think different.  After all you guys at the UK gave up your rights to guns so did Australia.  Did it change crime rate?  no it made it worse.  same for the united states every time the goverment forces laws and regulations on the people people always will try to find a way around the laws.  Now the FAA has put a panic on the public and the public may not approach the FAA for guidance leaving people of the internet to guide them for advice.  The ONLY time law works is when it benefits the whole as a public.  The swiss are a good example.  Every one is mandated to have a gun issued by the goverment and everyone is mandated to undergo training.  Their is virtually no brake ins and crime is down considerably.  So by all means keep letting goverment govern every aspect of your life see how that will work out.  The united states was once great because we had the freedom to do what we wanted under simple rules and we prospered because of it.  I guarantee you that DJI sales will suffer because of the new law people are already freaked out.  Some just are complacent like you others don't want to bother with the FAA and some will just stop buying drones all together.  But in reality if goverment came to your door and said we want you to stop using drones what would you say or do.  After all you did agree to sigh the dotted paper with all your contact information.  you did wave your rights once you complied with the law.  Now flying a drone is a privilege not a right.  So what next riding a skate board or flying a kite is privileged not a right.  And don't say that is silly because according to the new FAA rules we have to mark our kites under the new drone law.  "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." Benjamin Franklin
2016-1-2 08:06:21
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easiair05@aol.c Posted at 2016-1-2 05:28
Continued restrictions by the manufacturer, or the identification of users in of geo space who overr ...

I agree with you 100 percent.  however we had all thse things before the FAA's new laws IE people had to get insurance, business license training we didn't need the FAA to make this law now things are going to get worse not better.  So rather then the FAA work with the public they are causing panic and unnecessary fear.  
2016-1-2 08:17:12
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Sir Shepherd Posted at 2016-1-1 22:09
@LICENSED PILOT - If I didn't know better, I'd bet that you are employed by the FAA or in relation ...

not interested in getting into a pointless tit for tat with you. Thanks.
2016-1-2 08:44:14
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trip3980 Posted at 2016-1-1 19:18
You haven't been watching the news have you?

Yes, the black FAA helicopters (er drones) are coming...
2016-1-2 08:45:56
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Interesting and its good to see opposition to it.
2016-1-2 10:27:25
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PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-2 12:57
I cannot see how you can possibly reach that conclusion given that in my post, I specifically ou ...

    "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." Benjamin Franklin



... and the originator of that idiotic quote was plain wrong.

I am just shocked that you even said that.  Benjamin Franklin is one of the original founders of the Constitution and bill of rights.  To say that he is an idiot is to say everything in the Constitution is wrong and everything he stood for is wrong because that quote was part of the foundation of the Constitution it self.  
2016-1-2 13:46:34
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That guy is not much of a lawyer.  Over and over he says "registration of aircraft"......... he totally misses the point that it's the PILOT who is registered.  So you guys can send him your money if you want.  Or you can send me some money, and I'll make you a custom tin foil hat.
He's just a guy trying to make money off of unsuspecting pilots.
2016-1-3 08:34:21
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PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-3 11:28
Can I have one of those tin-foil hats, please?

I understand they work very well in enabling Inspi ...

2016-1-3 10:27:54
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To a guy who is just getting his P3P, this is a very interesting conversation.  I'm not exactly sure where I come down on this issue completely yet, but I have to say that every few days when I hear that a drone flew close to an airliner or flew into a stadium or photographed a project that wasn't public..... or any of the other scores of incidents....... it makes me understand why the feds would like to know who's drones they are.  Sounds simple enough doesn't it?  (indulge me here please...... I will not enter into a conversation about our government and how they just want to "take away my" or "record my" or <insert popular conspiracy theory here>.  This will simply be a conversation about whether or not FAA regs are appropriate for this hobby)

I just read that the drone industry is pegged to be a 70 billion dollar industry by 2025.  This would be another reason I could see for regulation.  Millions of new RC flyers in the next ten years with the potential for great fun would also seem to carry the potential for great damage and malicious behavior if not just plain stupidity.

It also seems that the new rules were designed in haste and run the risk of not being effective in curbing some of the issues mentioned.  As with all things, it's a balancing act to be sure and the balancing act takes time....... lots of time.

Now, I certainly don't intend on flying above my ability nor do I intend on doing anything with my P3P that could be construed as malicious.  However, simply stated, many people will.  They already are. People will come up with all sorts of ways to do things that are wrong and those things will hurt other people as well as this community.  I've always felt that communities that policed themselves and set their own benchmarks and boundries are the ones that are strongest and most respected. A  community of responsible people who are drone enthuisests shouldn't be saying "leave me alone", I would think that they should be helping to shape the exploding future of the hobby (or commercial endevor) that they enjoy by making sure safeguards are in place to deal with the inevitable testing of smarts.

There's so much political garbage here that contributes nothing to the actual issue and conversation.  I much rather be in on the discussion of guidlines for an emerging technology and community than throwing rhetoric bombs designed to turn people into flame warriors.  

On the surface, it seems clear to me that a need exists for some form of regulation and registration.  I am not opposed to registration and will be doing so as soon as my drone arrives.  If you're reading this, and are concerned about the feds coming to get you, your name on the drone owner list is most likely the least of your worries.  I am on the grid..... credit cards, FaceBook, bank accounts and drone forums.  I can be found easily and living off the drone grid will not make me invisable to anyone that wants to find me.  I won't mind someone of authority walking up to me as I fly my P3P and ask to see my ID.  There's simply no downside to it for me.  I can only imagine that the instances of "show me your drone papers sir" are so few that they will hardly ever happen (oh I am sure someone will have a story of drone police violating his rights when he was minding his own business, but lets keep this in the middle context and not the extremes).  I'm much more inclined to think that all incidents of "show me your drone papers sir" will be after someone flys their copter into a place that they clearly shouldn't have been.  In which case it would be justified.

To be a part of this community sounds facinating.  A new market of RC devices, massive projected growth that will bring amazing art, innovation and ideas, and the opportunity to help shape a new segment and the technology that it spawns.  Sounds like fun to me.

Thanks for the space to think,

Kes

<dons his flame retardent underware>
2016-1-5 15:49:56
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LICENSED PILOT Posted at 2016-1-1 14:17
"I talked with a drone company who does Aerial photography and the FAA told them they saw their we ...

Pilots license?
2016-2-18 13:12:59
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LICENSED PILOT Posted at 2016-1-1 14:17
"I talked with a drone company who does Aerial photography and the FAA told them they saw their we ...

Pilots license
2016-2-18 13:13:20
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DJI-Dave
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Here we go again....
2016-2-18 14:38:25
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2016-2-18 15:13:21
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iDroned
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Gotta love the Apparatchiks waving their "Licensed Pilot" statuses around. You are NOT a licensed pilot because you voluntarily registered a toy with Uncle Sam. No Federal Agency has the legal power to Make Law, only Congress does. The fact that D.C. Bureaucrats violate the Constitution doesn't change that fact. Courts are shooting down lawless regulation all the time, as will likely happen to this Burgermeister Meisterburger like toy ban where Unelected Bureaucrats have decided they control from the top of the blades of your lawn up, as well as your kids' toys which have been flown in various forms for a century. Imagine the NHTSA forcing anyone who buys an r/c car to "register" it because of Highway Safety. It's an overstepped power grab that will end in court unless Congress passes laws.
2017-4-20 04:15:29
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The drones could be a reason for the FAA to maintain their funding which I've heard is up for evaluation in September along with the new drone rules due then.  No doubt they've lost a lot of the real planes due to rising costs as our local airport has become an RV parking lot rather than tie-down tarmac for airplanes.  Not that many planes are there anymore and what is in some hangars are old cars and RV's.  General aviation has taken a huge hit so drones might be the bread and butter to maintain the FAA.  Even the AOPA has opened their doors to drones in their membership drives.

2017-4-20 07:08:54
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