Please select Into the mobile phone version | Continue to access the computer ver.
Suggestion: TimeLapse Workaround
3075 21 2016-1-5
Uploading and Loding Picture ...(0/1)
o(^-^)o
martin94b
lvl.4
United Kingdom
Offline

Hi,

as of today the buggy Osmo unfortunatly is unable to capture a somewhat convenient TimeLapse video, neither with the blurry and buggy video itself nor with JPG recording and Post-Processing.

Thus I would like to suggest the following workaround for now:
DJI, please come up with a Windows PC / MAC solution where you can load a regular 4k video (e.g. 24 fps), then select the distance of frames (e.g. 2-100) you want to use for the resulting timelapse video and finally save that 4k video without the frames in between.

Please let me explain what I mean:

Let´s say you have a regular 30 Minute 4k Video shot in 24 fps (resulting in 30min x 60sec x 24fps = 43200 single frames).
Then select to use only every 10th frame.
So the SW would take frame #1, #11, #21, #31  ..... #43191 and just delete all the frames in between. Don´t change resolution etc.
Then save a regular 24 fps 4k TimeLapse video (3 Minutes, 4320 frames) which is now speed up by factor 10 (and also 10 times smaller than the original video).

If you´d choose to use every second frame the result would be a 15 Minute 4k video (21600 frames) speed up by factor 2.

Advantage for customer:
- Finally being able to produce somewhat high quality TimeLapse videos as advertised, while regular 4k video recording seems to work ok with Osmo by now.
- Decide on the Speed scaling factor in Post-Production and not upfront during recording. So you are much more flexible and can adopt the speed scaling upon the material you got.
- Being able to use much smaller Speed scaling factors than currently possible with Osmo (currently smallest recording frequency in TimaLapse video is 1 Hz = 1 fps resulting in a 24 times Speed scaling factor, for JPG based TimeLapse its 2 times more and propably way to fast for some purposes such as Hyperlapsing etc). With the suggested solution the lowest speed scaling factor will be two, so that´s 12 / 24 times slower than today ;-)))

Disadvantage for customer:
- Lots of 4k video data during recording (but that will be acceptable I guess while µSD card memory ain´t as expensive anymore and can be deleted after Post-Production).
- Need to perform Post Production. Depending on how good that tool would be (in respect to calculation time and usability) this seems to be acceptable due to the advantages you get.

Advantage for DJI:
- Dedicated and rather simple tooling as compared to perform all the required firmware updates instead (which doesn´t mean you should not fix them in the future).

Maybe there is even a freeware tool around which can actually do this exact thing? Or a Photoshop PlugIn? Or a SW DJI can just buy and give us frustrated Osmo TimeLapers for free? ;-))

@ Amy et al: what do you think?
2016-1-5
Use props
DJI-Amy
DJI team

Hong Kong
Offline

I will forward your suggestion to the engineers. Thanks for your suggestion.
2016-1-5
Use props
DJI-Amy
DJI team

Hong Kong
Offline

Hi, how about another method? It's different from your suggested method but the result could be the same. The current timelapse setting in the app can be video+JPEG mode. What the PC software can do is try to use these original 4K photos in the micro SD card to export a 4K timelapse video.
2016-1-5
Use props
martin94b
lvl.4
United Kingdom
Offline

DJI-Amy Posted at 2016-1-5 18:03
Hi, how about another method? It's different from your suggested method but the result could be the  ...


Amy Amy Amy...

once again: are you serious? Are you taking me for a fool?
As I already reported in another thread (and I hope you are aware of) this method is not only time consuming but also buggy as well. I even wrote it in this Post, why do you ignore it?

http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?m ... 6orderby%3Dlastpost

Yes, the strange FOV moving around bug is only within the video and not within the JPG. Still there are two major issues with the JPG method you suggest:
- unfortunatly about one out of a hundred JPG images is corrupted when recording Mov+JPG. So even with this method the resulting TimeLapse video is jumping every few seconds.
- the recording frequency is being reduced to 0.5 Hz = one frame every two seconds only. This is way too fast for many applications and also results in some ridiculous max TimeLapse movie lengths of about one minute per battery.

And by the way - how could the results be the same when the minimum recording frequencies differ by factor 48?

All this bugs could be avoided by my suggested workaround.


2016-1-5
Use props
ke-now
lvl.4
Australia
Offline

I don't understand your interest in timelapse with the Osmo. Why? It's not a strength of a handheld gimbal camera.

You want to make good timelapse video? Use a DSLR on a tripod! You will have better lens choice, better battery life, better stability, plugin power option, more exposure and focus options, lens hood, more manual control etc.

The only way the Osmo could be better for timelapse is with programmable motion of the gimbal over the duration of the timelapse. But that isn't a feature, so why bother? Even if that were a feature, we'd need plugin power to keep the Osmo powered for long periods. Timelapse on the Osmo is a peripheral gimmick. Or am I missing something? Tell me what I'm missing?
2016-1-5
Use props
martin94b
lvl.4
United Kingdom
Offline

ke-now Posted at 2016-1-5 21:06
I don't understand your interest in timelapse with the Osmo. Why? It's not a strength of a handheld  ...


Hi Ke-know,

let me explain my interest in TimeLapse with Osmo - or in other words: why I bought Osmo especially for TimeLapsing:

1) Amy indeed promised (in another thread) that DJI will provide a SW which lets you pre-program the gimbal engines to rotate smoothly while recording timelapse. All in one device out of one hand. Now THAT IS A WOW FEATURE and UNIQUE SELLING PROPOSITION! That statement was THE reason I bought the Osmo: 4k timelapse AND camera rotation in just one device. That no other DSLR / Digital camera can do. I am still getting goose bumps and wet eyes thinking about it. Not yet implemented though and I am patiently waiting for that feature to come. Not complaining (yet).

So yes, you missed that this is an announced future feature!

2) DJI advertises the Osmo also as dedicated timelapse device! What they don´t mention: in Timelapse Mode the Osmo can not record in 4k but only some blurry 1280 x 720 resolution (and an additional FOV movement bug). I expected (according to specification) a ready to go 4k timelapse video out of cam WITHOUT the need of time consuming Post Production. That again a DSLR / regular digital camera cannot do and would save me a lot of time & effort. But doesn´t work until today, so I am complaining after waiting for several weeks now.

3) Yes, I could use a regular DSLR for taking interval pictures with much better resolution and optics as well (I am a pro Canon user). BUT: the curtain of every DSLR camera is built to only withstand a certain number of shots. In consumer segment this is about 100.000 shots, in Pro segment (like 1Dx or 1D_MKIV) its about 400.000 shots. Only one hour of final TimeLapse video shot with a DSLR is already 60 x 60 x 24 = 86.400 shots - now thats almost the lifetime of a consumer DSLR! Do you understand why I don´t want to use my expensive stuff for that? It´s just way too expensive ;-)

4) Hyperlapse (non stationary Timelapse): Here the combination of the stabilized gimbal in conjunction with TimeLapse ability comes into play. You won´t be able to get such a smooth result with either a DSLR or any other 4k camera without a stabilized gimbal (unless you spent very very much time in exactly positioning your tripod for each shot...). And the gimbal stabilizer finally works ok since the last FW update (hurray and Thx). And again: this is another unique selling point of the Osmo!

5) You are right, the battery lifetime is an issue. But for that there can be homemade solutions ;-)) And at least this has been announced in the Specification upfront, so no complaining here.

I hope you can now understand why I (and for sure many more Osmo customers as I recall in the threads within this forum) focus so much on the timelapse function of the Osmo. And yes, it IS a strength of a _stabilized_ handheld camera. So it´s much more than just a "side function" of the Osmo, it´s one of it´s essential unique selling points!

Regards,
Martin


2016-1-5
Use props
ke-now
lvl.4
Australia
Offline

Okay.. but... I don't follow your logic for 3) and 4).

Timelapse is best for short sequences, a few seconds long. DSLR is fine. Or use a mirrorless digital camera if you're worried about lifespan of the shutter. Perhaps if you explain the subject matter you intend to shoot. Sounds like you have a timelapse project in mind.

The best timelapse videos involving cloud or sky movement are shot over long periods of time recording the frames over hours. Osmo battery will go flat for those. Osmo is not practical for lengthy shoots, especially with the fan going the whole time.

Hyperlapse means you will walk along, perhaps in a straight line straight ahead for example. But even with the Osmo, your body, arm and hand will be in a slightly different position as you walk along. The Osmo will not be perfectly straight ahead for every frame captured if you are walking forwards. No more than if you were to use a monopod and normal camera, and align with a point on the horizon for each shot. I would bet that method would be more accurate than walking along with Osmo.

Look at this Osmo hyperlapse for example, ( youtu.be/unXyM4nolBM?t=54s ) the official DJI one, it's terrible!!! The central image point is all over the place. Not because the Osmo is at fault, but because the girl is holding the Osmo and walking along.

The Osmo, even with gimbal locked, cannot stay perfectly aligned to a point on the horizon as you walk forwards. That's a manual task for each shot,  just as it would be for regular camera on a monopod or tripod.

And finally, standing there for lengthy periods holding the Osmo, you will soon get tired! Tripod is needed, so the gimbal stops serving a purpose anyway.

I agree the programmable gimbal would be very nice on Osmo for timelapse, as would 4k. But then you can only pan or tilt in the timelapse. That's nice, but you can't track or dolly. Not without using a tripod and positioning each shot, or buying special rails for mounting a camera on.

Each to their own! I'd personally like 360 spherical panos much sooner than timelapse features!
2016-1-5
Use props
martin94b
lvl.4
Germany
Offline

ke-now Posted at 2016-1-5 16:54
Okay.. but... I don't follow your logic for 3) and 4).

Timelapse is best for short sequences, a fe ...

Hi again,

why do you think that TimeLapse is best only for short sequences?
The real impressive ones are much longer. I can recommend the documentary movie "Baraka" as an example, also a reference BluRay in respect to image quality (mastered from 8k!).
Of course battery is limiting the usage of Osmo, but as I stated above - that problem can be fixed quite easily by installing an external DC port yourself ;-)
And yes, the DSLR disadvantages could be solved by using a mirrorless system. But I would have to buy one dedicated for Timelapse recording (I am doing landscape and city Time- and Hyperlapses), and most likely invest into additional lenses as well. I only own and use Canon Pro DSLRs while neither image quality nor autofokus are sufficient if you take Wildlife fotos (e.g. Birds etc, see my avatar image for instance). Thats why I was looking for a wide angle 4K camera solution and thats where the Osmo jumped in.

Concerning the Hyperlapses I don´t quite understand why you think the gimbal stabilizer is not really helpful?! Even though the lateral movement while walking cannot be compensated by the gimbal the rotational correction helps a lot. And if you are walking carefully the lateral movemenmt can further be minimized. Much better result than without gimbal stabilization for sure. Works fine for me if only the 4k timelapse recording would work...

And you are absolutely right concerning the "stand still" TimeLapse Recording: Tripod is mandatory, absolutely! But did I mention anywhere that I don´t use a tripod for that? I even ordered the DJI tripod together with the Osmo, unfortunatly the DJI store (via App) doesn´t tell you that the extension rod is required as well. But thats a different story and I am complaining about DJI wanna charge me for additional shipment of the extension rod in a different thread... but the gimbal still serves my purposes once the pre programmable gimbal movement is implemented ;-)

Now I am wondering that you seem to use your Osmo mainly for 360° Panos?!
You could also do that with a regular DSLR or even mirrorless camera in much better quality and even be able to get perfect Panos when knowing how to find and compensate your nodal point... Osmo engineers obviously did not know about that, thus the Osmo is not mounted in its nodal point. This also leads to the "shaky foreground" phenomen when the gimbal stabilization jumps in in video recording as described in other threads within this forum.

But I guess it´s also just about the convinience - as for myself - right?

Back to my original thread topic:
what do you think about the suggested workaround for TimeLapsing now that we talked about the "why" and "what for" arguments?

;-)


2016-1-5
Use props
DJI-Amy
DJI team

Hong Kong
Offline

Sorry for the missed post. What speed scaling factor do you think is appropriate for the Timelapse? Could you provide a range for that? I've forwarded your suggestion to the R&D, they will consider it seriously.
2016-1-5
Use props
martin94b
lvl.4
United Kingdom
Offline

DJI-Amy Posted at 2016-1-6 11:55
Sorry for the missed post. What speed scaling factor do you think is appropriate for the Timelapse?  ...


Hi Amy,

if we talk about the suggested PC tool for creating a timelapse video from a regular recorded 4k video I guess the sky is the limit - so speed scaling factor of 2-100 would be appropiate, i.e. a recording frame rate of 12 - 0.25 frames per second. If users would even want to have larger scale factors they could just redo the workflow. Or implement a higher speed scale number (e.g. 500) just as you like. It should not be any more programming effort once the basics are done.

Same would be true for recording a 4k TimeLapse video right away out of the Osmo. The Osmo is capable of recording 4k videos in 24fps already, so why not reduce that framerate during timelapse? It doesn´t have to include all possible fps framerates (like 24, 23, 22, 21...1, 0.9, 0.8...), but something like 12,6,3,1,0.5,0.25,0.2 and 0.1 would be sufficient. But again, once the basics are implemented correctly the user interface / selectable framerate range shouldn´t add much effort in programming.

I do understand that for shooting full resolution 12.8 Megapixel images there´s a hardware limitation on how fast you can record and save those images. It´s very likely much less than 24 fps, probably somewhere at around 3-5 fps or even less. Leading to much much lower framerates in timelapse recording (currently: 0.5 fps with simultanous video recording) and thus very fast speed scaling factors (48, pretty fast / "hectic" for Hyperlapse videos) and short Timelapse videos. Thats why I´d prefer to record Timelapse in 4k video right away where those limitations can be overcome. And I would not need to perform Post Production anymore - great!

I hope that the timelapse issues are not only being considered but taken seriously and being implemented in one or the other way. As I stated above the Osmo architecture in general could be just great for TimeLapers and offers a couple of unique selling points. I´m sure that´s nothing your marketing department wants to miss ;-))
2016-1-5
Use props
ke-now
lvl.4
Australia
Offline

martin94b Posted at 2016-1-6 03:28
Hi again,

why do you think that TimeLapse is best only for short sequences?

I just received my extension rod last week. It's very good, I like it. Can be attached to any tripod, you don't need the DJI tripod. I suppose you know that now, but I recommend getting the extension rod.

I have a pretty good DSLR panoramic rig: Acrotech leveling base, Sunex panoramic rotator and superfisheye lens. I've made plenty of nice panoramas. But I would like a non-tripod solution for obvious reasons. Gimbal would provide nice steady, level shot. Panoramas are all about perfectly flat level shooting, which is why I have a leveling base on my tripod. The gimbal steps up and removes the need for both tripod and leveling base.

Unfortunate about the nodal point of Osmo. But I think there may be a workaround, I just don't know it yet! Until then, and until they expand the panorama feature, Osmo cannot do 360 panoramas, so I don't touch that feature yet.

Baraka style timelapses! Okay, good luck! Yes I own the bluray. Lens choice is a big part of the photography in Baraka. And we really need that DC accessory to keep Osmo humming for hours.

Alright, I suppose if you walk carefully in a straight line with the gimbal pan and tilt axis locked, you could get a nice hyperlapse. I should try it before knocking it. But I really think you'll need to lock the pan axis, the micro-movements of the pan axis would cause a jittery outcome, even if walking super steady and slow like a Baraka monk ringing his bell.


2016-1-5
Use props
DJI-Amy
DJI team

Hong Kong
Offline

martin94b Posted at 2016-1-6 13:48
Hi Amy,

if we talk about the suggested PC tool for creating a timelapse video from a regular reco ...

Thanks martin, I will forward your suggestion to our R&D department.
2016-1-6
Use props
ke-now
lvl.4
Australia
Offline

Why would such a tool be needed? What you're describing is simply speeding the video up.

Removing every 2nd frame for example results in a video twice as fast. The same as applying a 200% speed increase in your video editing software.
2016-1-7
Use props
sploodge
Captain
Flight distance : 809350 ft
  • >>>
United Kingdom
Offline

Hi Martin.. Have you used the Microsoft Hyperlapse application - http://research.microsoft.com/en ... cts/hyperlapseapps/ - It can achieve what yuo are after..

I did a time-lapse with my Phantom 3 using it.. I am sure it would work OK with the Osmo video too..

2016-1-7
Use props
martin94b
lvl.4
United Kingdom
Offline

ke-now Posted at 2016-1-7 16:20
Why would such a tool be needed? What you're describing is simply speeding the video up.

Removing e ...


Ke-now,

you are absulutely right. And that is exactly what I´m after.
"...your video editing software..." - which video editing SW (from DJI)? That´s my point here:

Thx to sploodge for showing us a solution from Microsoft. Looks great and probably is just what I´m being after - and there might be many other even more sophisticated tools out there.
But: I have to pay just another 50€ or even much more for it. And I already paid DJI a whole bunch of money and still haven´t got what they promised me. So all I am asking is DJI to come up with a solution which I already paid for. I don´t mind if they spent me (and all other Osmo customers) a free voucher for the Microsoft tool either ;-)

Or would you know any freeware "video editing tool" I can use for 4k TimeLapsing just as the Microsoft tool does? (Just as I explained at the end of my initial post in this thread.)

@ sploodge:
I had a look into the MS Hyperlapse Pro Tool and indeed it does exactly what I want. Plus even additional image stabilization ;-)
Unfortunatly the Program
- costs additional 50$ as already mentioned
- requires Win 10 for 4k video footage (which I just got rid of and moved back to good old Win7)
- and worst of all: is not available in Germany ;-(((

Thx for the Tip anyway!
2016-1-7
Use props
ke-now
lvl.4
Australia
Offline

martin94b Posted at 2016-1-7 22:08
Ke-now,

you are absulutely right. And that is exactly what I´m after.

Okay, I thought you might already own video editing software. I use Premiere, but it's expensive.

I recommend Corel VideoStudio Pro X8, it's affordable at around $50. It has a very nice feature set including what you need for timelapse and general video editing. Just buy it! They will refund your money if you don't like it, says so on the website. Everyone should have video editing software.

A few standout features:

* "Variable Speed – Slow down or speed up of any part of your video without having to work with multiple clips"

*  Import and edit Ultra High-Definition 4K videos (with resolutions up to 4096 x 2160)

* Stop Motion animation – Quickly create an animated movie starring people, toys and objects

* Time-lapse photography – Start with a video clip or a series of photos and accelerate them to make a time-lapse movie. Remove frames to achieve a strobe effect and speed it up.

* Smart Proxy editing – Speed up HD video editing by using Smart Proxy editing to work in a lower resolution until you're ready to export



2016-1-7
Use props
trip3980
lvl.2

United States
Offline

DJI-Amy Posted at 2016-1-7 15:34
Thanks martin, I will forward your suggestion to our R&D department.

I just wanted to point out this is 1 of many reasons why the software needs to be open sourced.  And why you should alert the Magic lantern community to help with development.   
2016-1-7
Use props
martin94b
lvl.4
United Kingdom
Offline

trip3980 Posted at 2016-1-8 02:40
I just wanted to point out this is 1 of many reasons why the software needs to be open sourced.  A ...


Japp,

I fully agree to the open source / magic lantern aspect. That could really speed up feature list and bugfixes / workarounds. Independent from snoring / buggy or simply overloaded Osmo R&D team.

While photography is my main domain I am using Photoshop CC which has some video abilities as well, but is not as dedicated as Premiere etc. It´s possible to generate a video from JPG, but whith Osmo there are still some bugs and limitations which make that unattractive (see above).

Would you probably know of some workaround / Sript / Action or PlugIn for Photoshop which will be able to re-render a 4k 24fps video with only every other / every 3rd ... every 50th frame?
2016-1-8
Use props
trip3980
lvl.2

United States
Offline

martin94b Posted at 2016-1-8 18:15
Japp,

I fully agree to the open source / magic lantern aspect. That could really speed up feature ...

Your not going to like my response but all the canons can only shoot at a heavily compressed resolution because the cameras processing capabilities are limited.  Part of it has to do with data transfer rate.  For example the DJI osmo can shoot at 60mbs.  That means for 24 frames you have a maximum data size per frame of 2.5 mb per frame.  theoretically.  so on a non compressed jpg from my test I can ONLY shoot 1920X1080 pixels cropped on the censer.  mind you that doing this means the lens crop factor will multiply when cropping the censer.  All the camera companies know this so they have to do a work around.  Canon chooses to do I frames meaning horizontal scan lines.  the only other way I know how to do this is taking the original video say threw a 8bit or 10bit  hdmi type single then down scaling the image to fit the proper pixel aspect ratio.  This can be done with external video recorders on the canon and other cameras with the atomos ninja.   Those little cameras on the osmo are not able to capture the kind of resolution we love in respects to the aspect ratio.  the technology is just not there.  I do think the Zenmuse x5r can do it but I could be wrong.  Yes I know all the cameras record in "4k" but they are sacrificing something to do it because like the zenmuse x3 it only records at 60mbs.  The reality is somewhere in the camera the image needs to store the processed image fast enough and long enough to transfer into the card IE what are the buffering speeds and buffering capacity of the camera.  
2016-1-8
Use props
martin94b
lvl.4
Germany
Offline

trip3980 Posted at 2016-1-8 16:58
Your not going to like my response but all the canons can only shoot at a heavily compressed resolu ...

Hi trip3980,

today seems to be my day of confusion ;-(

I do not quite understand why you are talking about Canon cameras and compression rates (during movies and not photos I assume)?
While I can fully follow your 60mBit/s calculation and resulting image quality and I-frames etc I have a hard time to understand the relation to my post?
I do not expect an uncompressed ultrasharp 4k image of the Osmo in 4k video / Timelpase mode if that´s your point?!

Please help me to understand what you are trying to tell me.

By the way: when we are talking about data transfer rate a direct 4K TimeLapse movie "out of the Osmo" with reduced fps would significantly increase the amount of data per image. With 10 fps it would be a theoretical 6 MBit / frame ;-)

Thx,
Martin

PS: JPG is allways compressed by definition ;-)
2016-1-8
Use props
trip3980
lvl.2

United States
Offline

martin94b Posted at 2016-1-9 00:14
Hi trip3980,

today seems to be my day of confusion ;-(

Yes sorry in regards to your post what I am saying here is that to shoot at 4k jpg image with out compressing a jpg image is 7mb thats 168mbs at 24fps to compress that would be like 70% - 80% compression per frame.  try recording 4k video on an iphone or samsung and you will see what I mean.  its retarded looking.  Now I know for a fact that the camera is able to take raw images at a good quality but your not going to be able to get it at the speed you want without sacrificing something because your only limited to 60mbs.   I think a raw DNG image on an apsc sensor is 30mb at least for my canon 60D which shoots at 16mp which is just over 4k pixle aspect ratio.  

and yes I know JPG is a compressed format.  when I mean no compression I mean its at the highest posibal resolution the codec is able to output respectivly.  Sometimes when communicating with me just know my brain is thinking the right way you just have to dig out what I am trying to say lol.  
2016-1-8
Use props
tasso
lvl.1

Netherlands
Offline

martin94b Posted at 2016-1-5 15:42
Hi Ke-know,

let me explain my interest in TimeLapse with Osmo - or in other words: why I bought O ...

Mabey choose another hobby instead of timelaps.
I use my 7d in combination with the ramper pro but why do the concern.
You don't buy a car and let it stand in the garage because of the km you are driving.
100.000 shots yep that's wright but make that 100.00 shots count with a nice timelaps.
I also use the osmo for timelaps and it's great for a hyperlaps instead of moving every time my tripod.
But the low resolution makes it usseles.
2016-4-20
Use props
Advanced
You need to log in before you can reply Login | Register now

Credit Rules