Please select Into the mobile phone version | Continue to access the computer ver.
flyaways 99% user error ?
12Next >
7753 66 2015-1-12
Uploading and Loding Picture ...(0/1)
o(^-^)o
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
Gunny Huntarr
lvl.3

United States
Offline

Well since you've just started flying a phantom. I wouldn't recommend throwing out an arbitrary statistic like that  
2015-1-12
Use props
rod
First Officer

New Zealand
Offline

Hmmm---sorry but your post does read  like  "i'm cool and everyone else is an idiot".  So you have all the data from the crashes and flyaways that support your findings that 99% are pilot/ panic related?   There are many posters here that have provided their experiences good and bad to help us all.  Your post is unbelievably self indulgent and contributes little to this forum.

Of course there are pilot errors, but bear in mind this is supposed to be a hobby for most and the Phantom is designed to take away the necessity to learn the more difficult skill of flying manually.  There is no doubt that learning this skill would be a great advantage and in an ideal world everyone should do it. But there are many car owners out there that can't drive a manual gearbox vehicle- that is because the product doesn't require them to- it has de skilled the process by automation.  That is what the Phantom is to most people and what makes it so attractive.  
So I am glad you consider yourself a competent drone pilot and I sincerely hope you don't have an "event" with your Phantom- but promise us this- if you do , please come back and explain how stupid you were to lose/ crash it.  That will add to our pool of knowledge.
2015-1-12
Use props
gnixon2015
First Officer

United States
Offline

ive read almost every post on this board about flyaways.  reason being, that im terrified of having it happen to my new $1000 christmas present.  

i think it is a mixed bag of reasons.  as for what proportion is user versus craft, i dont think that questions is answerable from any truly practical standpoint.

what i can say with almost certainty is this:

SOME FLYAYAWS ARE DUE TO PILOT ERROR
you mentioned this but those are things like
-not having gps lock when taking off
-not running latest software/firmware/etc
-not calibrating when recommended/necessary
-not knowing how to bring it home in ATTI mode versus GPS mode when something 'happens' mid flight
-not understanding the risks of flying in certain circumstances that could cause the drone to want to fly on its own somewhere (this includes flying with low battery, flying near large objects that can block gps signals, flying out of LOS, etc)

SOME FLYAWAYS ARE DUE TO CRAFT DEFECT
Software:  face it, these things have software and (speaking from being a software engineer) DJI has not tested EVERY SINGLE INPUT VARIABLE combination for the software.  
Hardware: hardware fails, from things as simple as a motor going rogue and 'taking' the craft on a 1way flight to aruba to the battery voltage going bad and cascading into a unit's gps module being fried from a voltage spike.  it can and will happen.

as for 'fault' i think the mixed bag is simply an unknown.  the best you can do is plan for the worst and hope for the best.  but from all the posts ive seen, the BEST way to mitigate and minimize the likelihood that you'll be one of those statistics is:

KEEP THINGS UP TO DATE (yes, the old if it aint broke dont fix it theory encroaches here but i still believe it is wisest to do this)
MAKE SURE YOU HAVE GPS LOCK
KEEP BIRD IN LINE OF SIGHT (if you dont, your bird will lose comm with the RC and when it decides to fly on its own you'd better HOPE that home is really home *sigh*)
STAY AWAY FROM CERTAIN THINGS (large buildings, tunnels, valleys, tech infrastructure that can emit EMF, GPS, Radio or any sort of disruptive waves).

I have done those 4 things religiously and to date have had flawless flights.  i dont expect problems while following these but do realize that pilot error and drone malfunction are both potential causes.

in the end, i dont think the proportions are as skewed as 99%/1% towards human error but like i said, i dont think you'll ever know and everyone can speculate til they are blue in the face...

my 2 cents...
2015-1-12
Use props
tonyphantom147
lvl.4

United Kingdom
Offline

Gunny Huntarr Posted at 2015-1-13 05:32
Well since you've just started flying a phantom. I wouldn't recommend throwing out an arbitrary stat ...

Amazingly I just did a response on another post, on the same vein, the pilot was at fault he admitted. Most fly always and crashes i have come across, and experienced my self in 15 years flying are human error. My quote from this post.
It's painful, I know. Been flying 15 years, Many crashes etc. I wonder if new pilots rely too much on GPS help now, and not learning the basic flying skills first, head on,escape plan A and B, auto rotations(I know autos don't work on phantom)etc, regular checks and maintenance, like the old days.http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?m ... ra=page%3D1&lang=en
2015-1-12
Use props
gnixon2015
First Officer

United States
Offline

tony, answer me this...

ive seen several posts about a phantom 'taking off' and in the details of the post the person said it was being unresponsive to commands even when switched to ATTI mode.  while i agree that SOME of those situations may be an inexperienced pilot interpreting the behavior to be unresponsiveness when, in fact, it is responding and they are simply not making the right commands to orient and bring home, i cant imagine that SOME of them are people, like myself, that could tell the difference between me not knowing how to fly and it not listening.  if the craft starts 'not listening' and it starts drifting (either because it is wind drifting OR it is selecting some far away GPS location to fly itself to), what exactly is someone supposed to do?

you make it seem like the answer would be... well just put the bird in ATTI/Manual mode, pay close attention to what is going on, and fly it home.  while i agree that is teh right sequence of steps, SOME posts ive seen certainly seem like reasonably intelligent people DOING THAT and watching it still 'do its own thing'.  again, im not saying that is 90% of it, but i also dont think it is 1% of it either.
2015-1-12
Use props
tonyphantom147
lvl.4

United Kingdom
Offline

gnixon2015 Posted at 2015-1-13 06:05
tony, answer me this...

ive seen several posts about a phantom 'taking off' and in the details of t ...

Keep in mind human error can include a huge amount of many things. From simply not reading the manual properly,to not noticing a crack in a prop, the list can be huge. I firmly believe simple checks and maintenance plays a huge role to safe flying. But don't agree it's 99% human error, in my case about 70%.Edit.   Other factors were electrical then mechanical. In that order.
2015-1-12
Use props
Gunny Huntarr
lvl.3

United States
Offline

Exactly why I suggested to the OP that throwing out a wild speculation of 99% is ill-advised.  

One could distill all errors down to 100% human error, since it is a human made device. But that is a strawman argument.  

We're all here to help each other minimize those flight errors by sharing each others experiences.  Hopefully finding common causes that can led us to using a series of best practices.
2015-1-12
Use props
Daninho
Second Officer
Flight distance : 70203 ft
Germany
Offline

there are definately cases which are NOT user errors for example when you see crazy behaviour of the craft like the phantom is moving full throttle without any stick commands. Nobody knew the real reason behind this, maybe other stronger radio signals in the area or some sensors going crazy etc.. In the end its like a computer with software algorithms, sensors, electronics, radio frequencies and so on.
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
Gunny Huntarr
lvl.3

United States
Offline

Goncalo have activated Naza mode? (takes it out of "nanny" mode)
Have you adjusted the gains?   (To reduce the "quite slow" response)
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
droneflyers.com
First Officer
Flight distance : 60709 ft
  • >>>
United States
Offline

goncalo Posted at 2015-1-13 07:00
but gnixon, that is what I'm trying to understand : I did not read every single post of flyaway (  ...

I believe ATTI uses mostly the onboard barometer for height registration. It may also use some of the compass, accelerometer and GPS, but I believe it doesn't go crazy when it has poor GPS.
As far as the original question - what is to stop the pilot from bringing it back....there are a large number where the pilot doesn't know how to fly. Others happen too quickly and pilots cannot react....they may not have the proper mode set.

I do believe that a vast majority of so-called flyaways are due to combinations of pilot error and irresponsible flying (too far away, too far for the experience of the pilot, relying on automatic features, etc.).


2015-1-12
Use props
gnixon2015
First Officer

United States
Offline

drone is right, in ATTI mode, GPS should not be the cause of 'flyaways' (at least not the 'bye im headed to aruba' kind of flyaways).  it could still drift and in a heavy wind (which wind at 300' can be WAY diff than wind where you are standing), the bird could be APPEARING to fly away when in fact it isnt.  THAT would be in the category of human error (which is really just the human MISINTERPRETING the behavior as i said in my longer post above).  but i still think that ive seen a number of posts where the info shared would (to me just reading it) indicate that a real hardware/software problem caused the bird to 'take off' and not simply drift.  
2015-1-12
Use props
Gunny Huntarr
lvl.3

United States
Offline

Technically, sluggish can be helpful during aerial photography. Snap maneuvers don't make for smooth images as you may have learned.

Naza's third S1 switch position (bottom/down) can be configured for Manual or Failsafe.  As a new Phantom pilot I recommend Failsafe.  Manual gives no attitude control. Failsafe returns the bird to home base.  
Going Manual allows you to become one of those pilot error statistics. No way to blame the bird in this mode.
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
birdfolk5555
lvl.4

United States
Offline

So...I guess the only place we can fly it without undue risk is over a damn cornfield.  Gee, how fun.
2015-1-12
Use props
gnixon2015
First Officer

United States
Offline

pretty  much birdfolk... however, that only means if you want to completely minimize your risk of loss.  no different than saying, if you dont want to wreck your car, then only drive it in your driveway.  NOT FUN but VERY SAFE.  then again, if someone said 'hey i want to have fun with my phantom and im not terribly worried about losing it', then i wouldnt recommend they fly only in a cornfield.  we pick our risk level based upon our loss appetite
i plan to DEFN fly mine in risk situations (on the lake, in the mountains, at the beach) but for now im sticking with open parks, soccer fields, cornfields, etc until i get more under my belt.  but believe me, i'll be getting risky with it at some point haha.
2015-1-12
Use props
droneflyers.com
First Officer
Flight distance : 60709 ft
  • >>>
United States
Offline

Failsafe does not bring the bird home when GPS has failed...which seems to be the most common event in many of these flyaways.

Read a number of the stories - a common sentence goes like this "I tried turning the TX off (which is the same failsafe) and the quad kept on going".

Although there could be many reasons for an out-of-control quad, a bad GPS lock seems to be responsible for a lot of them.....and neither failsafe nor Home Lock is going to work if the GPS situation is really bad (the quad thinks S. Africa is home!).
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
Jamie Hellmich
Second Officer

United States
Offline

goncalo Posted at 2015-1-13 10:41
that is exactly what I've been trying to say - but people got somewhat offended and thought I was  ...

What switch position are you calling manual mode?
2015-1-12
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-12
Use props
Gunny Huntarr
lvl.3

United States
Offline

The most common loss of GPS is low terrain obstructions. If you've set your RTH to gain altitude you can usually regain a failed GPS lock (ie. 6 GPS)
Also switching to ATTI and raising the bird
2015-1-12
Use props
ciprianboboc
lvl.3

United States
Offline

goncalo Posted at 2015-1-13 11:19
S1 -  last ATTI, configured in NAZA as Manual, not as failsafe.

Have you tried to fly in that mode?

I have tried and it was no fun. My cheap drones seemed more stable than my Phantom in that mode. You have to remember that throttle at 50% in manual mode means a drop, therefore you have to push the throttle up. And then you have to be really gentle with controls as long as you can do flips.

This statement confuses me: "because in 90% of the posts I read, I did not see a single pilot trying to recover the drone manually but stating that the homelock / atti / gps didnt work and the drone flew away."

What do you mean? You saw pilots in 10% of the posts saying that they tried to recover?

I have reported in other threads that I had recovered flyaways and even tried to reproduce a flyaway to understand what's going on.
You're right, that in a case of a flyaway (Phantom not answering to your commands) as long as you have line of sight, you can switch to ATTI mode and recover. It depends on conditions, but increasing the quad altitude and stop recording may help in those situations. That may work as long as it's not a hardware issue...
2015-1-12
Use props
Jamie Hellmich
Second Officer

United States
Offline

goncalo Posted at 2015-1-13 11:19
S1 -  last ATTI, configured in NAZA as Manual, not as failsafe.

Thanks, I just wanted clarification.  I've seen ATTI flight mode mistakenly referred to as "manual" mode in the past.
2015-1-13
Use props
Daninho
Second Officer
Flight distance : 70203 ft
Germany
Offline

birdfolk5555 Posted at 2015-1-13 08:49
So...I guess the only place we can fly it without undue risk is over a damn cornfield.  Gee, how fun ...

of course, i fly mine only in the countryside. In a city its way to dangerous, when this thing falls down and injures somebody you will have to pay forever. The insurances will search for every reason not to pay, when you have FPV or a GPS tracker or other mods for example. Some ppl fly over highways according to some youtube videos, this is really crazy. Another thing is when the phantom goes out of control it can fly several miles with a full battery into the next city. I would fly those copters only in the countryside.


I dont think that manual mode is the solution if the phantom goes wild. Foe example when other radio signals irritate the phantom the manual mode is worth nothing. Often the phantom isnt reacting to the sticks anymore. Manual mode still needs a working flight controller
2015-1-13
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-13
Use props
ciprianboboc
lvl.3

United States
Offline

goncalo Posted at 2015-1-13 19:00
fun ? no it isnt. but I'm training myself into it.

why ? not because I'm a masochist, but if I ha ...

What kind of Phantom do you have? Do you have a camera on it, too?

You're the first person I hear that he's flying in manual mode. I've asked on this forum on different threads if there are people flying manual and got no answer.

Please share your experience. I may try to fly manual again... Do you start all the way in manual mode or do you switch to that mode during the flight? Isn't your Phantom wobbly? Did you end up with any flips?
2015-1-13
Use props
Jamie Hellmich
Second Officer

United States
Offline

I've been flying some Manual mode also, with my P2V+, and switch it to Manual in flight.  I'm not confident that Manual mode would help with a "flyaway" unless it's close enough to see the aircraft very well, a couple of hundred feet at most perhaps.  I'm still training myself, but it handles very well, though you do have to stay on the sticks.  As goncalo said above, easy on the sticks for sure.  Flipping it back to ATTI or GPS ATTI can bail you out quickly if you have some altitude.

I do most of my flying in ATTI mode, and don't worry about flyaways.  If I get out too far to fly by line of sight, I can use FPV on my phone as my eyes, or IOC Course Lock to bring me back.
2015-1-13
Use props
Jamie Hellmich
Second Officer

United States
Offline

goncalo Posted at 2015-1-13 07:00
but gnixon, that is what I'm trying to understand : I did not read every single post of flyaway (  ...

Just to clarify and perhaps avoid confusion for others:

When optional NAZA-M working mode is enabled by the user with the Assistant software,

S1 top position is GPS ATTI flight mode

S1 middle is ATTI flight mode

S1 bottom position is the default FAILSAFE setting, or may be optionally set by the user with Assistant software for MANUAL flight mode.

No flight mode is called "ATTI Manual", nor 1st or 2nd ATTI etc...


Very briefly;

GPS ATTI indicates ATTITUDE control by means of on board instruments to keep the craft level and in hover, and GPS to hold position and altitude, with the sticks centered.

ATTI indicates ATTITUDE control by means of on board instruments to keep the craft level and and in hover,  with the sticks centered.

MANUAL means MANUAL control with no help from instrumentation or GPS.  The aircraft will not hover in throttle mid-position as in ATTI or GPS ATTI.  You will have to fly the craft and control altitude at all times.
2015-1-13
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-14
Use props
goncalo
Banned

Portugal
Offline

Tip: the author has been banned or deleted automatically shield
2015-1-14
Use props
teedo757
lvl.4
Flight distance : 1870 ft
United States
Offline

Just my 2 cents. Had an issue with mine while flying in the backyard. I have been flying low and slow switching between gps and atti to better learn to fly it in atti mode. I had been flying for a while and was in gps mode when the low battery (red flashing lights) started on the phantom. They quickly switched back to green and the phantom started slowly drifting away from me. The phantom was unresponsive as if the transmitter (controller) was off, I was only about 15 feet off the ground and it was drifting slowly so I spent about 3-5 seconds moving the joysticks around to see if anything happened.....nothing. I didn't want it to drift to far away so I switched the controller into atti mode and the phantom came back to life, I had control again. I immediately landed it in atti mode with no other issues.

I had a gps lock and all the calibration jazz before I took off. I think it is a software issue since the phantom acted like it locked up. I also have had a fly away where it lost gps and kicked into atti mode for about 7 minutes never regaining GPS. This was before I switched it to NAZA mode so I know it wasn't the s1 or s2 switches. I have never had it go more then 1 minute without GPS lock so I find it hard to believe it couldn't re-establish gps signal for 7 minutes. Most likely the software either lost its GPS home coordinates or something glitched and it kicked into atti mode.

I think the SAFEST way to fly these is in atti mode. GPS mode is nice but I'm not sure how reliable it is. I went about 2-3 months on GPS mode before I learned my lesson. Luckily I found my phantom.
2015-1-14
Use props
Jamie Hellmich
Second Officer

United States
Offline

goncalo Posted at 2015-1-14 22:42
Jamie,

You are 100% correct - there isnt Manual Atti or 2nd Atti. My apologies.

Loss of altitude and some airspeed during turns is normal for pretty much all aircraft.  Aerodynamic drag increases during turns for most aircraft, and the amount of vertical lift  for rotor aircraft is decreased as the rotors are tilted to rotate and/or pitch the aircraft.  Any lift in the rotors used to change the pitch or roll of the craft subtracts from that used to maintain altitude.  So increased up elevator is necessary to maintain altitude for planes and copters in turns, along with increased throttle if airspeed is to be maintained as well.

Additionally, your Phantom and other multi-rotors do not have wings, stabilizers, etc... to create lift, or have control surfaces to change the crafts flight attitude, it is all done by manipulating the speeds of the multiple  propellers to change the attitude and rotation of the craft, creating additional loss of lift efficiency.

You, the GPS or other flight control systems will have to maintain the altitude.  Manual mode means you.
2015-1-14
Use props
JerryLaurence
Second Officer
Flight distance : 21988 ft
  • >>>
United Kingdom
Offline

So, as a beginner just about to order a Phantom, isn't it safer to always fly in ATTI unless you need to keep the machine hovering in place, or want to use another GPS mode such as return to home for any reason? Is GPS just lazy flying for anything else? Surely, with ATTI, the chance of unpredictable behavior is reduced, or have I misinterpreted the situation?

Jerry
2015-1-14
Use props
12Next >
Advanced
You need to log in before you can reply Login | Register now

Credit Rules