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Drone insurance in Canada (SFOC)
3209 29 2017-3-21
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Richard Mavic p
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Flight distance : 44797 ft
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Hello, After Transport Canada made those XXXX new rules to "ban" drone cross the country. I just gave up to apply for a "SFOC" after reading the procesure to apply, no standard way to get one, really? Sample application are around 20 pages, takes 20 days to process per flight..................................

SO, I saw there is Exemption for UAVs that weigh one kg or less.  Our Mavic weigh only 0.8kg, perfect! Then I guess I need to buy $100,000 in liability insurance coverage. Which insurance company can help me with that in Canada? How much you guys paid per year for Mavic?  Thanks!
2017-3-21
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alirz5
Second Officer
Flight distance : 609833 ft
Canada
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Is that exemption only for SFOC? I wish they had that as part of the recently introduced regulations also...
2017-3-21
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Molar
lvl.2
Flight distance : 26004 ft
Canada
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I looked into insurance coverage and found out that insurance would be $800 per year.
2017-3-21
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Hummingbird.UAV
Captain
Flight distance : 7700285 ft
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Canada
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SFOC or Special Flight Operations Certificate is issued by Transport Canada to insure safety on the ground and in the air when some form of aerial activity takes place.  These are obtained for Air Shows, flying really big model aircraft, lifting stuff to the roof of buildings with a helicopter and commercial activities using a UAV.  But not being for commercial use does not mean you cannot apply for a SFOC.  In the days when we had the simple model flying rules  no one in his right mind would bother with the application process but with the March rulings, SFOCs may be an option for some.  After you apply for a number of these TC may issue a general permanent SFOC to safe operators.

For a SFOC or the SFOC Exemptions the pilot must have training as follows:

The pilot operating a UAV system under this exemption shall have successfully completed a pilot ground school program that provides instruction on the following subject areas:
1.    airspace classification and structure;
2.    meteorological and NOTAM reporting services;
3.    interpretation of aeronautical charts and the Canada Flight Supplement; and
4.    applicable content of the Canadian Aviation Regulations;
(pretty much a full sized aircraft pilot ground school course)

The pilot conducting operations under this exemption shall be appropriately trained on the UAV system and qualified for the area and type of operation.  

For the exemptions there are an additional 50 requirements one of which is liability insurance.  The insurance is probably the easier to get than the training.
For myself I have liability insurance mainly to protect myself from lawsuits should something go wrong.  Its no different than having liability insurance on your car.
You can read about the exemptions in the following links.  There are two based on UAV weight.
SFOC Exemption one
SFOC Exemption two
2017-3-21
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bigdps
lvl.4
Canada
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There is another thread for USA insurance purposes. People are listing who are the providers. Maybe those who in Canada, have found drone insurance, should pass on the info so we can see if we can apply.

I had seen State Farm in the USA would cover drones for x amount of $ a year. I have State Farm here in NB but the "underwriter?" of State Farm is Certa so all different rules. As of last week, my insurer still had no drone coverage .
2017-3-21
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Richard Mavic p
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Flight distance : 44797 ft
United States
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Hummingbird.UAV Posted at 2017-3-21 11:31
SFOC or Special Flight Operations Certificate is issued by Transport Canada to insure safety on the ground and in the air when some form of aerial activity takes place.  These are obtained for Air Shows, flying really big model aircraft, lifting stuff to the roof of buildings with a helicopter and commercial activities using a UAV.  But not being for commercial use does not mean you cannot apply for a SFOC.  In the days when we had the simple model flying rules  no one in his right mind would bother with the application process but with the March rulings, SFOCs may be an option for some.  After you apply for a number of these TC may issue a general permanent SFOC to safe operators.

For a SFOC or the SFOC Exemptions the pilot must have training as follows:

U got the point, Man. "For the exemptions there are an additional 50 requirements one of which is liability insurance. " Studying all of those details is even harder than SFOC.... TC should just BAN it rather than create all those shxx to us....
2017-3-22
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Richard Mavic p
lvl.3
Flight distance : 44797 ft
United States
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Did you guys all got an Email from DJI regarding to NODE, let's do it!
2017-3-22
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Acidsnow
Second Officer
Flight distance : 13 ft
Canada
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I still wouldn't see the benfit of apply for exemption though . . . still same rules . . . or am i missing something?
2017-3-22
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Gunglejim
lvl.3
Flight distance : 102359 ft
Canada
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I had asked the people I have house insurance with and they stated it would be covered under that.  Will have to talk to them again with the new regulations and make sure they understand that the drone will flown mostly outside of my property because of the 75M rule.
2017-3-22
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alirz5
Second Officer
Flight distance : 609833 ft
Canada
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Thie NODE thing by DJI is only for USA though
2017-3-22
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bigdps
lvl.4
Canada
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alirz5 Posted at 2017-3-22 11:24
Thie NODE thing by DJI is only for USA though

I don't think so. I thought they were upset about the new rule so they want to protect their share of the sales, err, I mean protect us!!! LOL
Seriously, they can't be bad if they are willing to work with the hobbyists.
2017-3-22
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randy.sauder
First Officer
Flight distance : 872572 ft
Canada
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Gunglejim Posted at 2017-3-22 08:35
I had asked the people I have house insurance with and they stated it would be covered under that.  Will have to talk to them again with the new regulations and make sure they understand that the drone will flown mostly outside of my property because of the 75M rule.

Also...I have not yet seen a home insurance policy that didn't exclude "Aircraft".  So we are still SOO.
2017-3-22
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randy.sauder
First Officer
Flight distance : 872572 ft
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Richard Mavic p Posted at 2017-3-22 06:47
U got the point, Man. "For the exemptions there are an additional 50 requirements one of which is liability insurance. " Studying all of those details is even harder than SFOC.... TC should just BAN it rather than create all those shxx to us....

You are correct, it is even harder than SFOC as you have to apply for each and every "work operation".  Also TC won't approve an exemption for recreational use so it won't work.  Also even IF they did...you cannot as yet get liability insurance for rec use; unless someone corrects me I've looked into this.  I Imagine it will come very soon BUT guaranteed being a Canadian we will get hosed big time aka no $50 deal like our southern friends....
2017-3-22
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randy.sauder
First Officer
Flight distance : 872572 ft
Canada
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Richard Mavic p Posted at 2017-3-22 06:47
U got the point, Man. "For the exemptions there are an additional 50 requirements one of which is liability insurance. " Studying all of those details is even harder than SFOC.... TC should just BAN it rather than create all those shxx to us....

You are correct, it is even harder than SFOC as you have to apply for each and every "work operation".  Also TC won't approve an exemption for recreational use so it won't work.  Also even IF they did...you cannot as yet get liability insurance for rec use; unless someone corrects me I've looked into this.  I Imagine it will come very soon BUT guaranteed being a Canadian we will get hosed big time aka no $50 deal like our southern friends....
2017-3-22
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randy.sauder
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Flight distance : 872572 ft
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If you look at one of the points in the regulation:

"The pilot operating under this exemption shall not operate a UAV over or within a built up area."

This effectively means you cannot fly in the city even though they do not define the term "built-up area".  Check out some of my prior posts on this term.
2017-3-22
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randy.sauder
First Officer
Flight distance : 872572 ft
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Richard Mavic p Posted at 2017-3-22 06:47
U got the point, Man. "For the exemptions there are an additional 50 requirements one of which is liability insurance. " Studying all of those details is even harder than SFOC.... TC should just BAN it rather than create all those shxx to us....

Here's the other BIG requirement; you can't fly anywhere...

"The following definitions are used in this document and are only applicable to UAV operations
conducted under these exemptions:
Built-up area – means areas with groups of buildings or dwellings including anything from small
hamlets to major cities. Anything larger than a farmstead is considered a built-up area."


BUT is gets stranger b/c TC goes on to say that under the exemption you must be 100' min from any building; so how can you stay 100' from a building when you aren't allowed to fly near (built up areas in the first place) buildings?  

TC can't (very well) enforce a regulation that is impossible to comply with.  

2017-3-22
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Aerial Gopher
lvl.2
Flight distance : 331906 ft
Canada
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Built up area is defined by Transport Canada: at this page: https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilav ... c-600-004-2136.html

Built-up area – means areas with groups of buildings or dwellings including anything from small hamlets to major cities. Anything larger than a farmstead is considered a built-up area

To give you an idea if a SFOC is required... this may help you understand.  If you are familiar wit Calgary area you will understand better.  This operation I did, did NOT require an SFOC.  Take off from the vacant lot area to the west side of WINSPORT ( Canada Olympic Park Area ).  Take off to the WEST, over Stoney Trail, fly north to bow river then east to tour downtown core. At 1000' AGL. ( Climb to 1000 AGl took until the turn to go east over bow river.  Then return and descend westbound over and above 16th ave ( Trans Canada Hiway), NOT over houses except for one that was in an open field area directly across from Winsport, then land in the vacant lot area again.  Again, no SFOC was required as this was not considered to be over built up area.  Only a letter of permission was required from Winsport to be filed with the SFOC request.  Operation was done by licensed Pilot, with an commercial air operator, with a Robinson RH44.  Yes, we were surprised there was no SFOC required.

I know of one company operating a UAV business that has an OPEN SFOC that outlines basic flight parameters that are required to be followed.  They are basically what was outlined here recently by TC.  Other aspects are to have a fire extinguisher, emergency plans, land owner permissions etc.  Other SFOC's can be applied for if they cannot comply with his general one.  The turn around time isn't that long from what he tells me. 1 - 2 weeks.

Calgary, as most cities probably do, have a bylaw where you cannot "launch a projectile" ( or any model aircraft, UAV, rocket, etc) from a public park.  Yet, there is nothing that says you can't take off from the road and fly over the park?  But then you would be in built up area :-)

New regulation says cant fly within 9 Km's of an Aerodrome... well, before it was 15 Km's why did it change, and the other rule is you cannot fly in a control zone...?
Look at this page to see the  Class C, Surface and UP  and yes, higher than the 300 feet you are allowed with your drone :-)  
http://www.calgary.ca/cps/Pages/ ... ed-Aerial-Vehicles-(UAV)-or-Drones.aspx?redirect=/drones

Can't fly where  " Any aircraft can land or take off"  That makes that literally impossible, helicopter can land almost any where.  Also 9km's from any heli pad, dirt, or paved runway? I, as a commercial pilot would not know where they all are, but I know where I could find out, they can't expect the general public to know this.  But the general public would know that there are helipads at hospitals, and other well known ones in their area.

Alberta PROVINCIAL PARKS act clearly states that aircraft are not permitted to land or take off in a provincial park, with out prior written consent.  But they also state VERY Clearly that an aircraft is.  "(a) “aircraft” means a device that is designed to carry one or more persons or objects through the air in powered or powerless flight; "

You interpret that.  Since you never put anything ON your drone, its not carry anyone or any "object" on or in the drone.  I called Alberta Parks to ask if we could fly in provincial parks, their response was, depends what park it is, they are all different.  Thanks, That makes it even harder.  Their reasoning is reasonable though.  Once talking to the guy, and they wanted to know the size of the drone, weight, etc  The reasons where because there are more sensitive areas in certain parks that they do not want to disturb the wildlife.  I can respect that, but they need to make this information easily and publicly available.  To give you an idea, even with a Mavic in sport mode at full speed I could hear it at over 400 meters away. ( out in the middle of nowhere on the side of a mountain.)  Remember, we know its a drone, the deer, bear, goat, squirrel, hawk, bird, and even the gophers on the ground think of it as a predator. What would you do when you hear a swarm of killer bees coming towards you... you freak out.

Home owners insurance MIGHT cover you, depends on your insurance company.  As my company said, yes it is covered.  It falls under the home owner policy, and is basically if I cause an issue it would fall under that.  The same section of policy as if I was carrying a 2x10 in home depot and turned around and hit someone else in the head with the end of it....  I am sure with all the hype around drones, insurance company's will try to exclude that.  But remember when the first car was built?  everyone complained!   I'm sure of it. there is NO WAY YOU ARE DRIVING THAT DOWN THE SAME TRAILS AS MY HORSE IS ON!!!! YOU ARE GOING TO SCARE MY HORSE.  So they got rid of the horses! :-)

At the end of the day, just don't do anything stupid, like this guy.  Click the link below, zoom in to Calgary, and look for the two missions that are shown on the north end of Calgary.  Double click to view his videos.  Now you can see who it is, where he lives, his house number, and how CLOSE he is to the airport, actually you can even see the airport and the new control tower. Further more to that, this idiot sends his drone on a mission around his neighborhood, down a major road, then back to his house.  I wonder why he wants to make these videos public, but whatever.  IT Truly is IDIOTS like this that were the FASTEST sperm, and not necessarily the smartest one! Damn Biology!

https://flylitchi.com/hub

2017-3-22
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Richard Mavic p
lvl.3
Flight distance : 44797 ft
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OK, thanks for all Canadian reply. lol I did a drone liability quote for $2000/yr. How about just take my Mavic away, I spend "only" $999 on that for hobby.   
2017-3-23
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alirz5
Second Officer
Flight distance : 609833 ft
Canada
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Richard Mavic p Posted at 2017-3-23 07:25
OK, thanks for all Canadian reply. lol I did a drone liability quote for $2000/yr. How about just take my Mavic away, I spend "only" $999 on that for hobby.

Yeh it's pretty stupid here....retards are running the government and our scam insurance companies.
2017-3-23
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alirz5
Second Officer
Flight distance : 609833 ft
Canada
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I have lost all excitement and love for this hobby. I've owned a p3p for two years and got a mavic two months ago. The government got exactly what they wanted from me. I.e simply to give up and not fly anymore.
I'm sad but also extremely mad at these stupid rules and  that I have no way to voice my concerns to anyone about this. Because let's be real, why would they listen?
2017-3-23
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bigdps
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Have you signed the online petition yet? That's one way to be heard.

https://www.change.org/p/marc-ga ... ation=petition_show
2017-3-23
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alirz5
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Yeh I signed that a while back. But to be realistic, no one is going to pay attention to a petition signed by a thousand people.
2017-3-23
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lildevilx
lvl.3
Flight distance : 264101 ft
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alirz5 Posted at 2017-3-23 18:05
Yeh I signed that a while back. But to be realistic, no one is going to pay attention to a petition signed by a thousand people.

In all seriousness, if you want t to be heard a petition would help. But change.org is useless as it doesn't follow the requirements of a petition in Canada. If you want your voice heard, then set up a meeting with your local MP and talk to them about it. And I encourage everyone to do so as that is the only way for things to change for the better.
2017-3-24
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Richard Mavic p
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Flight distance : 44797 ft
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Just do whatever may help. Signing petitions, Contacting (Email,call,meeting)  TC, GC,local MP.... Submitting multiple SFOC applications for weekends flying, they will feel the pressure. Hopefully~
2017-3-24
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bigdps
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alirz5 Posted at 2017-3-23 18:05
Yeh I signed that a while back. But to be realistic, no one is going to pay attention to a petition signed by a thousand people.

Well it is way better than to just let it pass by without trying to do something. Will it work? Who knows. At least if all the drone fliers who are directly affected voiced their opinion no matter what channel used, likely will stir something. That's what I am hoping and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
2017-3-25
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Mustang1993
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Pretty sure home owner's insurance will only cover you if your on your own property.  In Canada joining MAAC and flying on MAAC fields is way cheaper then any insurance that I've seen so far.  This won't cover you when flying off MAAC sites though.

Someone already caused a stampede because they though it would be a good idea to take a video.
http://www.independent.co.uk/new ... oming-a7598376.html

If enough of us mention that we'll vote for somebody else in the next election you bet your ass things will change !  Just look what happened to Trump after people spoke up about health care.  Republicans worried about losing their jobs changed their votes didn't they ?
2017-4-17
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HazeFly
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Flight distance : 1545144 ft
Canada
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New Rules as of 2018 are coming no SFOC will be needed for Most flights 250g to 25Kg Drones.  Just need to pass a test and insurance.  
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilav ... nada.html#liability
2018-3-4
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Mustang1993
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Canada
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To all you nay sayers that believe we can't cause change I would like to remind you how powerful organising and voting can be.  Just look to the US and see what the NRA can do for guns.   All politicians understand is votes!  If enough of us organise we can change these draconian laws.
2018-4-4
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Robert V
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Canada
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bigdps Posted at 2017-3-21 15:26
There is another thread for USA insurance purposes. People are listing who are the providers. Maybe those who in Canada, have found drone insurance, should pass on the info so we can see if we can apply.

I had seen State Farm in the USA would cover drones for x amount of $ a year. I have State Farm here in NB but the "underwriter?" of State Farm is Certa so all different rules. As of last week, my insurer still had no drone coverage .

Just found out that with an app called FlySafe, there is a Company from England who insures recreational and commercial use drone liability for one day or more for most counties in the world including Canada. Here is their link:
https://www.coverdrone.com/flysafe/
2018-7-16
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SurprisingEdge
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Canada
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Mustang1993 Posted at 2017-4-17 08:15
Pretty sure home owner's insurance will only cover you if your on your own property.  In Canada joining MAAC and flying on MAAC fields is way cheaper then any insurance that I've seen so far.  This won't cover you when flying off MAAC sites though.

Someone already caused a stampede because they though it would be a good idea to take a video.

Regarding home owner's insurance. I talked to BCAA recently, and they said there is no exclusion for drone flying, so I would be covered under the "personal liability" part of my insurance, which I think was $1m. This is a home owner's policy (I own a condo) but as a renter, you should have renter's insurance for your posessions, and so you're not on the hook if, for example, you leave a tap on and do water damage. A renter's policy may also have personal liability coverage.
2018-10-23
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