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Wind speed and ATTI
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embayweather
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An earlier post from a DJI moderator indicated that a Phantom should not fly in Moore than a Force 4 wind. I assume, maybe wrongly that is is P mode. Is it recommended to lower the wind speed value to fly safely in ATTI mode, and if so what would DJI recommend please?
This is important as it is vital information to include when creating an operations manual for the CAA.

Mike
2017-4-10
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Mark The Droner
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It seems to me ATTI mode has its pros and cons.  So it also seems to me the recommendation wouldn't change.  The important thing is the pilot needs to know what he's doing.  MHO
2017-4-10
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embayweather
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ThNk you for that thought. I have the same one but I was just testing the water to see  if DJI would confirm it.. I have no desire to Test my limits when flying in ATTI mode. My prime aim is to fly safely. There may come a time when  I have no choice,  and I am trying to be ready for it by practice, practice, pratice. However, my judgement as to what is too windy may well be different to others, as in safe driving speed. At my age you are far more cautious than when you were much yournger.
I have no real idea what is required of the pilot in the CAA flight practical but I am told that much of it will be conducted in ATTI mode, hence my concern that I do not wish to fly when it's not safe, and also so I can train myself as well as I can.

Mike
2017-4-10
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DJI-Jamie
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Just to clarify, are you asking what is the maximum wind speed you should fly the aircraft in while in ATTI mode? Just to clarify, which Phantom model do you have?
2017-4-10
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Labroides
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It's not possible to give one number for go/no-go.
DJI's standard recommendation of force 4 wind strength (11-16kts) is overly conservative and your Phantom can easily handle winds well above that.

It all depends on what you want to do and how you do it.
Factors to consider include:
Hhow high you must be to get the job done? - wind strength increases with height)
How far you need to fly?
Do you need to fly far downwind?

When it comes to atti, as well as wind strength and the factors mentioned above, that is up to the ability of the pilot.
Some flyers could come unstuck in a gentle breeze while another with experience may deal with 20+ knots with ease.
2017-4-10
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djordan2
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I agree with Labroides' post.  Well done.  I will say this.  The wind on the desert where I live is often blowing at around 20 mph, gusting to 25 mph.  The GPS system on the Phantom is phenomenal.  It can easily hand a 25 MPH wind.  The question is, can the pilot?  I made a short video for a friend the other day using AZ screen Recorder showing how well the Phantom 3 Standard handle a 25 mph wind.  It is very poor quality and the wind noise is awful.  It wasn't meant for publication, and was shot on the spur of the moment.  If you want to see it, go to

In a wind like that, if you go into ATTI mode and have not practiced manual flying, you are in trouble. I found out later that the winds gusts were up to 35 mph.   I use the P3Standard for practice, but normally fly the P3 Pro for distance
.
2017-4-10
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fansb2edd25e
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interesting question/point.   Real aircraft have what is known as Va or maneuvering speed specifically for flying in turbulent air so that the airframe isn't overstressed.    I was just looking at the owners manual for the P4P.  It states not to fly in drone in more than about 10m/sec or a bit more than 22 mph.  It can certainly "handle" speeds more than that, but the problem probably comes when you're in those conditions and put high stress on the airframe,  (hi acceleration or fast change in direction, pitch, etc).     GA airplanes are capable of handling 60 degree bank turns. You overload the aircrafy and do 60 degree bank turns, your margin of safely dimenishes.  I have to believe the same applies to DJI products.
2017-4-10
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fansb2edd25e
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making any comment about flying in "high winds
2017-4-10
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Labroides
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fansb2edd25e Posted at 2017-4-10 19:49
interesting question/point.   Real aircraft have what is known as Va or maneuvering speed specifically for flying in turbulent air so that the airframe isn't overstressed.    I was just looking at the owners manual for the P4P.  It states not to fly in drone in more than about 10m/sec or a bit more than 22 mph.  It can certainly "handle" speeds more than that, but the problem probably comes when you're in those conditions and put high stress on the airframe,  (hi acceleration or fast change in direction, pitch, etc).     GA airplanes are capable of handling 60 degree bank turns. You overload the aircrafy and do 60 degree bank turns, your margin of safely dimenishes.  I have to believe the same applies to DJI products.

In a Cessna, you have large weights and long levers plus speeds in excess of what a Phantom can do.
I find it difficult to believe that flying in a stronger wind or making the sort of moves a drone is capable of would stress the airframe beyond its normal design limits.

A 330mm drone is very different from a real plane in that respect.
It's not going to come apart in the air no matter what you do with it.
2017-4-10
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embayweather
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Some interesting thoughts there thank you.  Perhaps I should clarify mine a bit more, I can certainly believe the craft itself can cope with wind and gust without structural failure. I was more concerne about me as the pilot (although my own structure is failing already).  I have tried ATTI mode on my P3pro and P4Pro, on the beach where I normally fly. Mean wind speed 15 mph with gusts is about my own ,imit with the 3 , a little higher with the 4. Perhaps that is down to my own poor skills , lack of practice or similar. I am trying to build this by flying as much as I can.  However, I am studying to get my PfCO from the CAA, and part of that is thati red to write an operations manual, covering amongst other things the type of aircraft, it specs, emergency procedures and the like.  DJI have said a force 4 is the limit for a drone,  which i can include but not the gusts. Especially in ATTI mode control, as we all know, is substantially more difficult. It thus appears that the point I would say it is not safe to fly in ATTI mode would depend on my own skills and nothing more. The practical flight test I be,I eve is conducted almost entirely in ATTI mode, so even that would be limited unless I can develop the necessary skills.
Of course it is desirable to do so, to be able to control the craft in an emergency. But there would be other repercussions too if my judgement is poor. For example if I were to put I could fly in ATTI mode up to ,say, 20 mph in the manual but actually could not my insurers might not look too kindly in a claim we're into hit someone/something as a consequence.
Fro what I have seen I believe we all have a similar view, I.e. fly within your own limits whatever they are and practice, practic, practice to improve them.

Mike
2017-4-11
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Propwash
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embayweather Posted at 2017-4-11 15:26
Some interesting thoughts there thank you.  Perhaps I should clarify mine a bit more, I can certainly believe the craft itself can cope with wind and gust without structural failure. I was more concerne about me as the pilot (although my own structure is failing already).  I have tried ATTI mode on my P3pro and P4Pro, on the beach where I normally fly. Mean wind speed 15 mph with gusts is about my own ,imit with the 3 , a little higher with the 4. Perhaps that is down to my own poor skills , lack of practice or similar. I am trying to build this by flying as much as I can.  However, I am studying to get my PfCO from the CAA, and part of that is thati red to write an operations manual, covering amongst other things the type of aircraft, it specs, emergency procedures and the like.  DJI have said a force 4 is the limit for a drone,  which i can include but not the gusts. Especially in ATTI mode control, as we all know, is substantially more difficult. It thus appears that the point I would say it is not safe to fly in ATTI mode would depend on my own skills and nothing more. The practical flight test I be,I eve is conducted almost entirely in ATTI mode, so even that would be limited unless I can develop the necessary skills.
Of course it is desirable to do so, to be able to control the craft in an emergency. But there would be other repercussions too if my judgement is poor. For example if I were to put I could fly in ATTI mode up to ,say, 20 mph in the manual but actually could not my insurers might not look too kindly in a claim we're into hit someone/something as a consequence.
Fro what I have seen I believe we all have a similar view, I.e. fly within your own limits whatever they are and practice, practic, practice to improve them.

To state operational wind speeds higher than the manufactures recommendations would be folly from an insurance companies point of view in the event of a claim.This would also reflect in your ops manual where safety is your primary objective.
2017-4-11
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Nigel_
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Why don't you just say that it should not be flown in Atti mode, and if it enters Atti mode because GPS is lost then it should be landed as soon as can be done safely.

You might want to make an exception for practice flights.
2017-4-11
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embayweather
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Thank Nigel that is a thought. I personally believ that it goes against all safety protocols to fly in ATTI mode when not necessary. Propwash, I agree. I want to ensure safe operations all the way around. Currently mu thoughts are to stick with the Force four range of mean speeds, which by implication have associated gusts with them, and now I shall include Nigel's suggestion too to make it very clear about ATTI mode.
Menawhile I shall continue to practice my ATTI flying, within my own limits. Being older and more infirm than lots of folk, my limits must be lower than others.
I should add that I am doing the course simply so I can learn things. I have no intention of charging for taking pictures as I can no longer work. Unltimately, I should like to be able to hook up goggles via the add on module, so that I can let wheelchair bound folk have the flying experience.
My thanks to all for your help.
2017-4-12
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adrian8891
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I got more than 12m/s in gusts
http://app.airdata.com/main?share=EPJSkN

P-mode only.
2017-4-12
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Propwash
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embayweather Posted at 2017-4-12 03:52
Thank Nigel that is a thought. I personally believ that it goes against all safety protocols to fly in ATTI mode when not necessary. Propwash, I agree. I want to ensure safe operations all the way around. Currently mu thoughts are to stick with the Force four range of mean speeds, which by implication have associated gusts with them, and now I shall include Nigel's suggestion too to make it very clear about ATTI mode.
Menawhile I shall continue to practice my ATTI flying, within my own limits. Being older and more infirm than lots of folk, my limits must be lower than others.
I should add that I am doing the course simply so I can learn things. I have no intention of charging for taking pictures as I can no longer work. Unltimately, I should like to be able to hook up goggles via the add on module, so that I can let wheelchair bound folk have the flying experience.

Good luck with your plans and don't hesitate to post any further queries you might encounter plenty on the forum more than willing to give advice

                                                                                       
2017-4-12
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Eric13
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adrian8891 Posted at 2017-4-12 03:59
I got more than 12m/s in gusts
http://app.airdata.com/main?share=EPJSkN

I beat that easily. This equals 8 Bft:


wind.jpg
2017-4-12
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adrian8891
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Eric13 Posted at 2017-4-12 11:24
I beat that easily. This equals 8 Bft:

Thats about 18-20m/s ! OK, You WIN!

one question... has Phantom came back to You ?  or just log has left...
2017-4-12
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Eric13
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HaHa - no problem to get it back.
In strong winds I use the Atti mode for training. I have a landing pad I use for manual precision landing.
The last meter takes quite some time though :-)
2017-4-12
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adrian8891
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Strong winds + ATTI ?! ... I must say that You are brave!
2017-4-12
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