fans90d4f438 Posted at 2017-7-4 14:15
i fly within the limitations of the Mavic. I never fly in a manner that it was not built to be flown

I hear ya.
Total Mileage 21,230 ft out and back

she was made for it.

Erick705 Posted at 2017-7-3 07:04
When you're filming video, you're looking at your screen, adjusting gimble while flying.  Reading altitude, checking battery levels, exposure, etc.  You don't have your eyes on your drone.  These LOS guidelines are vague.  I don't see an issue flying beyond LOS.

The issue is if there happens to be a problem . You also can not see what is behind you or too far off from the side , above or below your craft . Full scale pilots can turn their heads or actually have mirrors to aid their field of view .  Very few drone operators shooting video make quick moves or turns to see what is around them . Tunnel vision when concentrating on a subject can be a danger in itself .  Not having the drone in VLOS to hear and see it when something happens is one of the main reasons for people losing their drones .

Erick705 Posted at 2017-7-3 07:04
When you're filming video, you're looking at your screen, adjusting gimble while flying.  Reading altitude, checking battery levels, exposure, etc.  You don't have your eyes on your drone.  These LOS guidelines are vague.  I don't see an issue flying beyond LOS.

It has been already decided by most aviation authorities once you fly BVLOS that the pilot is no longer in full control.
I suppose when you think ,hand gliding , parachute training , ballooning , once you can't see your drone others in the sky are at the mercy of you, and you can't see them, so aviation authorities, have got it about right.

I think LOS, VLOS is a responsible way to fly your bird, namely for reasons pilots are posting on the forums that if a problem occurs you have a visual on your bird. Unfortunately, we cannot choose that problem. What if that problem is a major hardware failure, which has happened, and your bird goes flying off into who knows where and crashes a mile or so away and injures someone or does damage, even though you were far enough away and kept the bird in LOS.
Just a thought.

Mavic is small and quite difficult to keep in sight, particularly with forested horizon. Early morning and late afternoon the strobes are visible for quite a distance, but not midday. RTH and map with the bug are great assets when you loose sight. The Mavic range of 7ks is well beyond sight I would imagine.
What have experienced pilots found. I have only gone 1 k from take off point.

MN MAVIC 2 Posted at 2017-7-5 16:27
I think LOS, VLOS is a responsible way to fly your bird, namely for reasons pilots are posting on the forums that if a problem occurs you have a visual on your bird. Unfortunately, we cannot choose that problem. What if that problem is a major hardware failure, which has happened, and your bird goes flying off into who knows where and crashes a mile or so away and injures someone or does damage, even though you were far enough away and kept the bird in LOS.
Just a thought.

The authorities and lawyers probably would not have as much ammunition to throw you under the bus as if you were intentionally flying BLOS . Just a thought .

RCNJ Posted at 2017-7-3 08:44
Only if there is some malfunction and you cannot identify where it is or what direction it is pointing in would the issue come, I guess it depends how confident you are that those issues won't happen.....

I would have said the same thing last week......Helped the pyro guy set up his show, went a 100'away from him and got set up while there was still daylight.
     30 min show started, no full time spotter, malfunction on the show, I am getting some good footage when all the sudden 3 1/2 inch shells are flying right at me.
    I didn't get hit, but my "spotter"was hiding behind our truck, I was coming down fast filming the fire fighters . Long story short I was watching the camera  as I came down but not the distance A.G. hard landing, screwed camera and it was only 50'away.
  LOS depends of the situation/circumstances. IMHO anyway.

DocAraxá Posted at 2017-7-4 08:25
Hey Bill,
Thank you very much to share your experience with us. But, please, tell me what would you do in the situation I said upper:
"You are at a rural site; grass and little trees, no higher than 10-15 meters. No public site. No one in the area.

First of all I would try to get a closer launch point.  Assuming it is really as empty of people and infrastructure you could probably do that, but again if you find out that you just ran into a family on a picnic your fortune is lost.  In Turkey we were lasing a peak as an offset turn point to also update our INS Nav systems -- until someone flew over the peak and found people camping out to watch us fly by on a route we used a lot.  The range to blind someone varied between 60,000 ft direct LOS and 16,000 ft reflected off of things.  We stopped lasing.

I thank all off you by sharing your thoughts and experiences.
It is very important to me.

Strange question as in most countries' laws prohibit people and fly farther away than the pilot can safely maneuver his vessel without the use of mechanical / electronic aids. For FPV flights there must be a spotter present to warn the pilot of other aircraft, but again the pilot must not fly farther away than the vessel is within the spotter's view in exactly the same way as if the spotter was the pilot.

Regards Leif.

I always try to but sometimes when I look down at my screen momentarily I lose the quad and have to make a movement to recapture it visually in the sky.

Nephroghost Posted at 2017-7-9 19:23
I always try to but sometimes when I look down at my screen momentarily I lose the quad and have to make a movement to recapture it visually in the sky.

Dear Nephroghost,
I quite often occurs with me. Mainly because of the size of MAVIC.

DocAraxá Posted at 2017-7-4 08:25
Hey Bill,
Thank you very much to share your experience with us. But, please, tell me what would you do in the situation I said upper:
"You are at a rural site; grass and little trees, no higher than 10-15 meters. No public site. No one in the area.

Sorry for delay.  I thought I posted an answer.

Sounds like a tempting scenario.  However, a little story of flying in Turkey in the middle of desert nowhere.  There was a small mountain that we would use as an offset aim point.  With our laser pod we could update our INS by lasing the peak, which updated our position to have accurate targeting info.  After a week of lots of flights passing within about a mile or so of the peak, one guy flew over it and saw people having a picnic and watching the show.  The safe eye distance for the laser either direct or reflected was greater than our lasing range - we could have blinded people.

You are flying with a wide field of view, Depth perception is next to zero, judging only by size of things and it would be easy to miss that there are things you can't see that could crash you, or you crash into them.  So there you are on national TV explaining why you refused to follow FAA rules and hurt some poor kid, that you just new wasn't there, or an aircraft flies into you that you didn't spot.  Law suit might be the least of your worries.

If it was REAL important, I might take the risk.  Just to get a cool shot, I don't think so.

Bill in Ohio Posted at 2017-7-10 13:18
Sorry for delay.  I thought I posted an answer.

Sounds like a tempting scenario.  However, a little story of flying in Turkey in the middle of desert nowhere.  There was a small mountain that we would use as an offset aim point.  With our laser pod we could update our INS by lasing the peak, which updated our position to have accurate targeting info.  After a week of lots of flights passing within about a mile or so of the peak, one guy flew over it and saw people having a picnic and watching the show.  The safe eye distance for the laser either direct or reflected was greater than our lasing range - we could have blinded people.

Hey Bill,

Thanks a lot, to share your experience with me. I understand and consider everything you say. And as I am a noob on flying it will be precious to me.
And congratulations to all of you that helped on the high-level discussions at this thread.  

Dirty Bird Posted at 2017-7-10 15:29
About the only time I have VLOS is when I'm lifting off & getting back.  

I fly a lot of manual flights, but if you really want to take it to the next level Litchi is definitely the way to go.  You can do stuff you just can't achieve any other way.  Plus you can repeat & tweak the flight until you get things just right.  Litchi is my favorite way to fly!

Dear Dirty Bird,

Congrats! Those videos are PRO!
But, if you don’t mind, I would ask you a question. And I insist, it is only for me to upgrade my knowledge on flying.  I Know you’re “THE MAN” on Litchi, and I am seriously considering buying it from app store (despite of being afraid not to manage it) because of your opinion at it, but, the question is: mainly on your second video, you couldn’t see your drone at all course.
And that is the motivation of the question of this thread.
Law says you should get your drone at a distance you see it.
But, as I said, in so many videos we watch here, and in so many other channels, we know that the pilot is not capable to see the drone during the hole flight.
I would be glad to discuss it.

Dirty Bird Posted at 2017-7-11 06:10
These devices are promoted with ranges varying from 1000m for a P3S all the way up to 7000m for a P4P.  But we're only supposed to fly them within VLOS of perhaps 250m?

Yep - if you don't want people to fly without LOS, don't release and advertise a drone that can fly up to 7km, as ONE of your key selling point. At 100 m already, you can barely see the drone, without any extra LED.

(Same goes for cars... speed limits are set to given speeds, and most cars can go twice (if not 3x) the restricted speed, you don't buy a fast car to take it to the track).

chalde Posted at 2017-7-12 06:16
Yep - if you don't want people to fly without LOS, don't release and advertise a drone that can fly up to 7km, as ONE of your key selling point. At 100 m already, you can barely see the drone, without any extra LED.

(Same goes for cars... speed limits are set to given speeds, and most cars can go twice (if not 3x) the restricted speed, you don't buy a fast car to take it to the track).

Very good point of view!
Thanks

chalde Posted at 2017-7-12 06:16
Yep - if you don't want people to fly without LOS, don't release and advertise a drone that can fly up to 7km, as ONE of your key selling point. At 100 m already, you can barely see the drone, without any extra LED.

(Same goes for cars... speed limits are set to given speeds, and most cars can go twice (if not 3x) the restricted speed, you don't buy a fast car to take it to the track).

As you say it's the same with cars, they can go much quicker than is allowed by law, and that's the point here not how far or fast Mavic can go.
It's the law that dictates how far and fast you can go, it's not manufactures, so just because you can go further, if you do then it's the law and the reasons for the law that will see you and others face the consequences of what might happen if you choose to go down that line.

We are all adults here and I'm sure we can all take responsibility for our own actions.

Line of sight to me doesn't mean you have to be able to see your drone but it is in your line of sight and if you had eagle eyes you could see it. I fly my drone over a mile away and if you think you can see that tiny thing a mile away your eyes are better than mine. There is a radar with a directional arrow so you know which direction your flying so if you head towards the center, that dot being you,  when your drone gets close then you can hear it and if your flying in LOS then you shouldn't have a problem finding it.  That is what line of sight means to me.

Maverick1 Posted at 2017-7-14 21:34
Line of sight to me doesn't mean you have to be able to see your drone but it is in your line of sight and if you had eagle eyes you could see it. I fly my drone over a mile away and if you think you can see that tiny thing a mile away your eyes are better than mine. There is a radar with a directional arrow so you know which direction your flying so if you head towards the center, that dot being you,  when your drone gets close then you can hear it and if your flying in LOS then you shouldn't have a problem finding it.  That is what line of sight means to me.

Yes that's Los but rules require VLOS , what you are talking about is BVLOS.

I feel a spotter is mandatory.

Bill in Ohio Posted at 2017-7-4 06:47
Yes having a spotter is OK, however not if they can not communicate with you.  You are the pilot and the control is yours.  You crash into someone's house or hurt someone because you are not LOS -- good luck in court when they sue your ass into oblivion.  Or as some of us used to say what will your answer be on TV  News for why you purposefully ignored the law.   My first drone I tried to fly out aways, I lost control and it crashed in the front yard of a neighbor a street away.  Watching the video showed it hit hard and the neighbor that saw it said it hit knocked the battery out, and skipped to about 25 ft from impact.  It could have killed someone.  I go back to an old  Fighter Pilot saying:  "There are old pilots, there are bold pilots, there are no old bold pilots."

There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots....

Totally reminds me of a BD-5 pilot I use to watch at the airport, always doing 200 MPH low level right off the runway.  One day after watching him when filling up at the pump, someone says did you hear?  Well, apparently the day before, he was again doing low level over some trees and apparently impacted.  Gone.  He was one of the bold ones they talk about.  It is kind of odd to be talking to him one day before and gone the next, but your statement about bold pilots of more true than most people imagine.

Just want to say that I believe there are situations where VLOS is important but I live on a 500 acre spread and use my drone to watch my crops because people have the tendency to think it's OK to pick my crops along the edges by the road. As soon as they see my drone they leave. My point is that some of our land is lower and has a bend and there is no way to keep the drone in VLOS. I am on over our property, usually less than a hundred feet am I still breaking the law? One more thing just for conversation. I have a friend that was a helicopter pilot for the military and now he is out but still works for them. He is now flying drones and goes to work in a skyscraper in Phoenix. He flies a drone in Iraq but is sitting in a room here in the US. Where is his spotter?

Maverick1 Posted at 2017-7-15 08:24
Just want to say that I believe there are situations where VLOS is important but I live on a 500 acre spread and use my drone to watch my crops because people have the tendency to think it's OK to pick my crops along the edges by the road. As soon as they see my drone they leave. My point is that some of our land is lower and has a bend and there is no way to keep the drone in VLOS. I am on over our property, usually less than a hundred feet am I still breaking the law? One more thing just for conversation. I have a friend that was a helicopter pilot for the military and now he is out but still works for them. He is now flying drones and goes to work in a skyscraper in Phoenix. He flies a drone in Iraq but is sitting in a room here in the US. Where is his spotter?

Military drones are a different kettle of fish and operate under a much different set of rules, they fly in different airspace, so it's ridiculous to compare.

I don't know if they have separate set of rules for commercial agricultural drones, in my country they have, and you need specific license, and you also need a certain type fit drone.

So maybe check with FAA.
My point has nothing to do with agricultural commercial work.

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-15 08:35
Military drones are a different kettle of fish and operate under a much different set of rules, they fly in different airspace, so it's ridiculous to compare.

I don't know if they have separate set of rules for commercial agricultural drones, in my country they have, and you need specific license, and you also need a certain type fit drone.

I know the military aircraft have different rules. It was a joke. Lighten up mon,,,,

Maverick1 Posted at 2017-7-15 08:49
I know the military aircraft have different rules. It was a joke. Lighten up mon,,,,

I'm relieved about that.

ME AND MY MATE SPOT FOR EACH OTHER
THAT WAY WE FLY A LITTLE FURTHER WHILE BEING SAFE

Maxxpsoft Posted at 2017-7-5 01:09
I hear ya.
Total Mileage 21,230 ft out and back

I made over 30,000' the other day.  Another day I set a distance record for me, of over 14,000'.  I couldn't quite see it. LOL. I though I had more of a tailwind coming back, and it went down in some woods.  Found it.  AMAZING MACHINE!

fans41779ada Posted at 2017-7-15 18:26
I made over 30,000' the other day.  Another day I set a distance record for me, of over 14,000'.  I couldn't quite see it. LOL. I though I had more of a tailwind coming back, and it went down in some woods.  Found it.  AMAZING MACHINE!

If you're capturing some footage, flying BY LOS is feasible IF you can get close enough to your subject.

In general, if you're just flying your quad, safely controlling it requires you to be amazingly close.  The craft is small and symmetric.  If you're obsessed with staying legal, and make sure you have a spec in sight, and then divide your attention between the spec, and the FPV display, I think looking at the spec is compromising safety.  It's simply a distracting spec. giving no information.

And at the altitudes we fly, over rural terrain especially maintaining visual line of sight is silliness, and I answered the survey " sometimes" because sometimes I fly BVLOS.  For practice and it's fun.  I've been two miles out to sea at 100' at midnight.  What or who am I endangering?  And if I happen to have a light from the drone in sight, how does that add safety?   Encountering an aircraft, if we're flying where we should be isn't going to happen.

BUT you are taking a risk with the drone.  I hit a power line once (And it did a flip and recovered.  GO DJI!) It was effectively invisible.  BLOS I'm sure it also would have been invisible.  Over uninhabited or sparsely populated areas, airplane pilots can fly down to the surface.  It's good practice (for flying a plane.  It's arguable whether it's worth it.), but it comes with risks.  I hit a power line in a light plane too.  It was crossing a small lake and was effectively invisible.  I survived.  In a drone your property is at risk by flying FPV.  I'll take the risk.  And if there is a spec visible, I won't be watching.  

So I have some epic 5 mile journey footage.  Out to sea, back to land, an extended flight over the breakers at dusk, but I only saw it in person for a few minutes.  My conscience is clean.  Nothing was at risk besides my baby, which shows that I'm very confident in its reliability.  I'd be heartbroken if I lost it.  But I'd get over it.

Xman1 Posted at 2017-7-15 07:30
There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots....

Totally reminds me of a BD-5 pilot I use to watch at the airport, always doing 200 MPH low level right off the runway.  One day after watching him when filling up at the pump, someone says did you hear?  Well, apparently the day before, he was again doing low level over some trees and apparently impacted.  Gone.  He was one of the bold ones they talk about.  It is kind of odd to be talking to him one day before and gone the next, but your statement about bold pilots of more true than most people imagine.

But there WILL be old bold drone pilots!

Maverick1 Posted at 2017-7-15 08:24
Just want to say that I believe there are situations where VLOS is important but I live on a 500 acre spread and use my drone to watch my crops because people have the tendency to think it's OK to pick my crops along the edges by the road. As soon as they see my drone they leave. My point is that some of our land is lower and has a bend and there is no way to keep the drone in VLOS. I am on over our property, usually less than a hundred feet am I still breaking the law? One more thing just for conversation. I have a friend that was a helicopter pilot for the military and now he is out but still works for them. He is now flying drones and goes to work in a skyscraper in Phoenix. He flies a drone in Iraq but is sitting in a room here in the US. Where is his spotter?

Flying low over your crops, and you're not LOS!  OMG!  YES, if it's really a rule and not an advisory for non-commercial operators then you are a CRIMINAL!  Subject to draconian fines.  What kind of hazard you  are presenting to who or what, I have no clue.  NONE.  A low flying airliner buzzing your fields?   Nah...

I read about people thinking they need to be operating by LOS to be safe, and the incredible HD long range video downlink is simply a viewfinder for the camera.  What a waste of technology.  GPS, RTH.  Object avoidance.  Highly accurate GPS with redundant compasses and IMUs.  >4 MILE range with spread spectrum encrypted video down links.  Great telemetry information on your aircraft state.

And some people feel that to be safe, they have to stay within a few hundred feet, fly by LOS, and have a kick ass viewfinder for video and stills.  What a waste for nothing.

Erick705 Posted at 2017-7-3 07:04
When you're filming video, you're looking at your screen, adjusting gimble while flying.  Reading altitude, checking battery levels, exposure, etc.  You don't have your eyes on your drone.  These LOS guidelines are vague.  I don't see an issue flying beyond LOS.

That says it all.  If you did divide your attention, to keep an eye on the drone, your footage and safety would both be compromised.

Tombolian Posted at 2017-7-3 08:33
You do until you look down at your remote for something then you look up but can't find the blasted thing again.. After a few seconds, it's RTH for me...

Hit a button, switch over to the satellite map view, and you'll know where you are to within 10'.  Then calmly fly it home.  Procedure:  On the map, turn it so that it heads towards you.  Make sure you are high enough to clear obstacles.  Push the right stick forward.  Then figure out which direction it will be coming from.  Look, listen, and presto you'll be LOS and back to safety in no time.  If you really feel daring, once you get oriented with the map, you can hit the button again, look at the HD picture, fly FPV (!) stay heading straight, and you should come right back.

Land, dry your sweaty palms, and have a beer or two.  Or you could just hit RTH.  LOL

fans41779ada Posted at 2017-7-15 18:26
I made over 30,000' the other day.  Another day I set a distance record for me, of over 14,000'.  I couldn't quite see it. LOL. I though I had more of a tailwind coming back, and it went down in some woods.  Found it.  AMAZING MACHINE!

Bare in mind parachutist hand gliders balloonist, they depend on you to see them, if you are out of VLOS you can't, I suggest you talk to those guys and tell them you can't be bothered , flying within any rules, and they need to take extra care when using airspace they have to get permission to use.

It all very well for you to come on here boasting of you long distance conquest's, but it certainly doesn't impress me.

Maverick1 Posted at 2017-7-15 08:24
Just want to say that I believe there are situations where VLOS is important but I live on a 500 acre spread and use my drone to watch my crops because people have the tendency to think it's OK to pick my crops along the edges by the road. As soon as they see my drone they leave. My point is that some of our land is lower and has a bend and there is no way to keep the drone in VLOS. I am on over our property, usually less than a hundred feet am I still breaking the law? One more thing just for conversation. I have a friend that was a helicopter pilot for the military and now he is out but still works for them. He is now flying drones and goes to work in a skyscraper in Phoenix. He flies a drone in Iraq but is sitting in a room here in the US. Where is his spotter?

I sympathize with you and think you have a better case for doing it than someone that just wants that cool shot.  At 100 feet, assuming you are not on a low level route (you would see jets fly by periodically if you were),  or in a  airport control zone, you are very very unlikely to have an air to air incident.  So that leaves accidentally colliding with the people you hope to catch or someone else.

You have two choices:  1) Do what you are doing, but be prepared to justify it if caught or 2) Contact FAA tell them your problem, location, altitude you wish to fly at and get them to answer (preferably in writing) that you have an exception.  

Your other examples are Apples to Oranges comparisons.  Military does lots of things that the FAA would frown upon, however they have a DOD waiver.  For example most AF pilots do not have a pilots license.  Trust me, we were trained far better than the average pilot.  Over in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and elsewhere FAA has no say.

Commercial licenses require a pilot like license with all the tests and costs and each individual drone is registered.  Not sure what their LOS requirement is.  I looked at it cursorily before deciding I didn't want to go through all that.

fans41779ada Posted at 2017-7-15 20:06
If you're capturing some footage, flying BY LOS is feasible IF you can get close enough to your subject.

In general, if you're just flying your quad, safely controlling it requires you to be amazingly close.  The craft is small and symmetric.  If you're obsessed with staying legal, and make sure you have a spec in sight, and then divide your attention between the spec, and the FPV display, I think looking at the spec is compromising safety.  It's simply a distracting spec. giving no information.

F4s:  I have flown as low as 50 feet AGL in some places in the world.  I can't remember what our minimum was on the approved routes in N. Carolina (probably 300 feet).  In Germany it was ridiculously high, but Brits would often fly a lot lower.  Navy flies low level over the ocean to practice avoiding ship radar.  Red Flag in Nevada, I think in the main area it was around 100 feet.

I think the only ones you would have to worry about at 100 feet would be helicopters, especially Army and Marine attack helicopters who literally fly just above the trees or shrubs.

fans41779ada Posted at 2017-7-15 20:24
But there WILL be old bold drone pilots!

Unfortunately their may be dead victims of old bold drone pilots.

I don't know how some popular youtubers can keep LOS when they fly over certain objects or thru steam like this: 1000 ft stack from a power plant. Even if you or a spotter were far enough away to be able to see the top of the stack where the drone is, you'd be too far to actually see it.

i do, after I have my first MP crashed.

definitely do fly LOS...it's also saved my butt.