I have been working as a photographer/videographer for over 10 years doing various types of work from corporate videos to photographying weddings however my main passion is landscape photography. Drone photography and videography is a new realm for me which is proving to be a really exciting space for landscape work. A couple of weeks ago I bought my first drone - a Phantom 4 which I am really happy with. I wasnt sure what to expect so didnt go the whole 9 yrds with a P4P or inspire.  A key selling point on the P4 for me was Adobe DNG RAW as it allows you to really bring images to life in post processing and is a key part of my workflow. Now my main workhorse camera is a Nikon D810 and I knew that very few other cameras could match up so didnt have that expectation with the stills on the P4.

I did however expect to be able to edit full RAW as generally I ll convert all my RAWs on my Nikon to DNG to save space on my HDDs but still have the ability to do full RAW edits. I have taken a few stills with my P4 in a number of different lighting conditions. I have taken all my images at ISO 100, f2.8 (fixed obviously) and a variety of shutter speeds to maximise quality. I have found it to be very limiting with only a stop or so of light being able to be recovered and if you do a mass of coloured sensor noise and hot pixels become visable - feels like editing a JPEG . Anyway I am just not sure if its the P4's sensor has very limited dynamic range or if the DNG is just a boosted JPG than can do a little more editing than a JPEG.

Keen to hear some thoughts from other photographers?

Easy way to fix this issue , hasselblad hanging from an m600. Very impressive, seen it on twitter this morning. No one with any thoughts on the p4 though?

The P4P and the P4 are worlds apart sensor wise.
https://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/ ... rone-camera-sensors

Lots of info for you to digest

The raw is much better than jpg in that it is not compressed with jpg artefacts added.

However you should not expect to find a lot of spare dynamic range in there since the sensor is pretty much as small as possible for an 8 bit image to be perfect.  In good conditions you should be able to do a bit of work on the raw but that shouldn't be an expectation.

The trick to using a small sensor is to get the exposure right when you take the photo so that it doesn't need much post processing and take advantage of all the advantages of a small sensor to do the things a large sensor camera finds impossible, such as flying, and the huge depth of field.

The P4P sensor is a lot larger, but it's still not going to be close to your Nikon, you need to adjust your methods to make best use the tool, not try to make the tool adjust to and cope with your methods.

Valid points, it does feel very much like an entirely different tool than what I am used to. With high end dslr you have so much wiggle room with exposure that's it almost difficult to make a mistake. In a strange way this makes things more interesting as you mentioned I need to work with the tool rather than the tool working for me. I had so much fun with early dslrs and they where the same. Some times technology can make it too easy. I find the video quality to pretty solid. It's just more the stills that feel a little lacklustre. I'd like to be able to upgrade my p4 camera to the pro without having to buy the whole unit. Do you think when the p5 comes out that may be an option?

Max App Posted at 2017-4-25 22:49
Easy way to fix this issue , hasselblad hanging from an m600. Very impressive, seen it on twitter this morning. No one with any thoughts on the p4 though?

Just read about this, should manage 3 raw photos per Gigabyte, obviously you wont want to use compressed raw files!

Max App Posted at 2017-4-26 05:08
Valid points, it does feel very much like an entirely different tool than what I am used to. With high end dslr you have so much wiggle room with exposure that's it almost difficult to make a mistake. In a strange way this makes things more interesting as you mentioned I need to work with the tool rather than the tool working for me. I had so much fun with early dslrs and they where the same. Some times technology can make it too easy. I find the video quality to pretty solid. It's just more the stills that feel a little lacklustre. I'd like to be able to upgrade my p4 camera to the pro without having to buy the whole unit. Do you think when the p5 comes out that may be an option?

'I'd like to be able to upgrade my p4 camera to the pro without having to buy the whole unit. Do you think when the p5 comes out that may be an option?'

So far DJI have not catered for the ability to swap cameras in their consumer line of aircraft, only in the Inspire professional series of aircraft. DJI do not release details of future products, so any speculation will be pure guesswork. But DJI appear to be the only drone manufacturer at a consumer level that seem committed to improving the cameras in their aircraft.

As Nigel_ says, proper attention to exposure of the shot yields best results, but considering the camera on the P4 is worth less than a lens cap for your Nikon, it is doing a pretty good job.

Max App Posted at 2017-4-26 05:08
Valid points, it does feel very much like an entirely different tool than what I am used to. With high end dslr you have so much wiggle room with exposure that's it almost difficult to make a mistake. In a strange way this makes things more interesting as you mentioned I need to work with the tool rather than the tool working for me. I had so much fun with early dslrs and they where the same. Some times technology can make it too easy. I find the video quality to pretty solid. It's just more the stills that feel a little lacklustre. I'd like to be able to upgrade my p4 camera to the pro without having to buy the whole unit. Do you think when the p5 comes out that may be an option?

Yes, the video is pretty good, I very often take my photos as frame grabs from the video, quality is not quite as good as a raw photo but in some ways better than jpg, you get thousands of frames to choose the best from, plus you can easily form panoramas from several frames which can give great resolution for very wide angle photos.   If I use it in photo mode, when I review the photos after flight I never seem to be happy with the positioning of the aircraft!  The 4K video is at sensor resolution so you aren't loosing much by using frame grabs.

If you want to upgrade the P4, the only sensible option seems to be to sell it and then buy the M600-Hasselblad or whatever.  You should be able to get a decent price when selling and the prices are unlikely to drop significantly any time soon.

However, I recommend that you have some fun with it first, learn to fly properly, learn aerial photography, maybe experience a few crashes, and then upgrade.  The P4 does have a good sensor and a good lens, it just has it's limits.  No idea when the P5 will arrive, the P4P and P4 Advanced are still new and have no real competition so there is no reason to rush a P5 out, not expecting it this year, I think they have other non-photographer targeted drones to release first.

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-4-26 14:18
Just read about this, should manage 3 raw photos per Gigabyte, obviously you wont want to use compressed raw files!

nice I get about 12 to a gig on my d810. I'd image the quality would be amazing although you'd probably have a panic attack every flight with the cost of of equipment in the sky!

Geebax Posted at 2017-4-26 14:31
'I'd like to be able to upgrade my p4 camera to the pro without having to buy the whole unit. Do you think when the p5 comes out that may be an option?'

So far DJI have not catered for the ability to swap cameras in their consumer line of aircraft, only in the Inspire professional series of aircraft. DJI do not release details of future products, so any speculation will be pure guesswork. But DJI appear to be the only drone manufacturer at a consumer level that seem committed to improving the cameras in their aircraft.

Reason I was thinking this would be a possibility as drone specialist retailers seem to be selling each individual component of the P3 series and you see them all numbered - part 12, part 39 etc, yet you can't seem to do that with the p4 yet. I was thinking that once the next model comes out DJI may release all the individual parts for the P4 series. If thats the case its more a question of it technically being possible to install a P4P camera on a P4. From a new guy perspective DJI very much seem to be the Apple of the drone world. Best in class but like to tightly control what can be used with their equipment and aren't keen on consumers modifying their products. None the less, would be nice to upgrade that camera in the near fututre. Is it possible to install a p3p camera on a standard p3?

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-4-26 14:40
Yes, the video is pretty good, I very often take my photos as frame grabs from the video, quality is not quite as good as a raw photo but in some ways better than jpg, you get thousands of frames to choose the best from, plus you can easily form panoramas from several frames which can give great resolution for very wide angle photos.   If I use it in photo mode, when I review the photos after flight I never seem to be happy with the positioning of the aircraft!  The 4K video is at sensor resolution so you aren't loosing much by using frame grabs.

If you want to upgrade the P4, the only sensible option seems to be to sell it and then buy the M600-Hasselblad or whatever.  You should be able to get a decent price when selling and the prices are unlikely to drop significantly any time soon.

I am definitely having fun for sure! Spending my youth, gaming (flying helicopters in battlefield series) is finally paying off. Seriously though I was in a military youth organisation called the air cadets in the UK. I have clocked 40 hours in a glider and 18 hours in powered flight. I was keenly aware thats drones aren't toys like a lot of consumers may think. In the first few weeks I have tested my drones capabilities so feel comfortable with what it can do and feel fairly competent as a pilot. I thought the phantom series was on an annual business cycle? so would we not expect the P5 late this year or early next?

Max App Posted at 2017-4-26 22:57
Reason I was thinking this would be a possibility as drone specialist retailers seem to be selling each individual component of the P3 series and you see them all numbered - part 12, part 39 etc, yet you can't seem to do that with the p4 yet. I was thinking that once the next model comes out DJI may release all the individual parts for the P4 series. If thats the case its more a question of it technically being possible to install a P4P camera on a P4. From a new guy perspective DJI very much seem to be the Apple of the drone world. Best in class but like to tightly control what can be used with their equipment and aren't keen on consumers modifying their products. None the less, would be nice to upgrade that camera in the near fututre. Is it possible to install a p3p camera on a standard p3?

You can install a P3P camera on a P3 Advanced, even the Standard (it simply makes it a P3 4K). But upgrading the P4 to a P4P is not possible because there are additional controls in the P4P camera that are not provided for in the P4 body.

When you say controls ? Do mean you the variable aperture? I think technically it would be possible as it would essentially be a p4a. The p4 series is all built around the same frame and technology. If anything it would be the camera transfer cables/ firmware that would stop it. Do you not think it's more a matter of DJI allowing it?

Max App Posted at 2017-4-26 23:24
When you say controls ? Do mean you the variable aperture? I think technically it would be possible as it would essentially be a p4a. The p4 series is all built around the same frame and technology. If anything it would be the camera transfer cables/ firmware that would stop it. Do you not think it's more a matter of DJI allowing it?

Well, DJI may or may not allow it, but in the P3 Series, the entire camera and video processing section was contained within a detached module that could be swapped. In the P4 all of this is now inside the body of the aircraft and integrated into the main electronics PCB, although some is on a seperate board. Either way, I suspect you might have to change the entire main electronics board to upgrade the camera, and I doubt that is practical, even if you could buy it, which you cannot (at this time).

Geebax Posted at 2017-4-26 23:31
Well, DJI may or may not allow it, but in the P3 Series, the entire camera and video processing section was contained within a detached module that could be swapped. In the P4 all of this is now inside the body of the aircraft and integrated into the main electronics PCB, although some is on a seperate board. Either way, I suspect you might have to change the entire main electronics board to upgrade the camera, and I doubt that is practical, even if you could buy it, which you cannot (at this time).

oh ok so the p4 design doesn't lend well to it, sound like an easier route would be to sell the p4 and upgrade. Not much point in doing that as its my first drone. It just bit surprising how much the quality varies between video and photos on the P4. The video is great aside bit more dynamic range. The photos need to be exposed bang on which leaves less room for creative flair in the post processing.

Max App Posted at 2017-4-26 23:45
oh ok so the p4 design doesn't lend well to it, sound like an easier route would be to sell the p4 and upgrade. Not much point in doing that as its my first drone. It just bit surprising how much the quality varies between video and photos on the P4. The video is great aside bit more dynamic range. The photos need to be exposed bang on which leaves less room for creative flair in the post processing.

I rarely take photos, most of my woerk is video, but I am privy to some absolute ripper shots from someone on this board who does it partly for a living, so I can testify that it is possible to get stunning still shots out of the P4P.

Max App Posted at 2017-4-26 23:45
oh ok so the p4 design doesn't lend well to it, sound like an easier route would be to sell the p4 and upgrade. Not much point in doing that as its my first drone. It just bit surprising how much the quality varies between video and photos on the P4. The video is great aside bit more dynamic range. The photos need to be exposed bang on which leaves less room for creative flair in the post processing.

I suspect it will be possible to upgrade a P4 to a P4 Advanced once the parts are available, but it will require a new main control board to deal with the very different camera and that is not going to be cost effective when a 2nd hand P4 will sell at a decent price, or make a great present ... especially if new ones become unavailable!

If the video looks better than your raw photos then you need to look into how you are processing the raw files!   It is the same sensor, used at full sensor resolution in both cases, except the video has the top and bottom chopped off to make 16:9 aspect ratio.  Also the video probably comes out of the sensor with 1 or 2 bits less resolution so that it can cope with the frame rate.

With regards to the P5, if DJI had some real competition on the P4P then they would be releasing new models on roughly a yearly cycle, but without decent competition they can wait until they have something really impressive with radar obstacle avoidance, lidar sensors, local communications with nearby aircraft for collision avoidance, autonomous formation flying etc.   The Mavic didn't arrive 1 week after the GoPro Karma by accident, it was probably ready for Gopro's original launch date and further developed when Gopro failed to launch!

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-4-27 02:07
I suspect it will be possible to upgrade a P4 to a P4 Advanced once the parts are available, but it will require a new main control board to deal with the very different camera and that is not going to be cost effective when a 2nd hand P4 will sell at a decent price, or make a great present ... especially if new ones become unavailable!

If the video looks better than your raw photos then you need to look into how you are processing the raw files!   It is the same sensor, used at full sensor resolution in both cases, except the video has the top and bottom chopped off to make 16:9 aspect ratio.  Also the video probably comes out of the sensor with 1 or 2 bits less resolution so that it can cope with the frame rate.

'The Mavic didn't arrive 1 week after the GoPro Karma by accident, it was probably ready for Gopro's original launch date and further developed when Gopro failed to launch!'

Actually, I think the Mavic was developed as a Karma Killer.

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-4-27 02:07
I suspect it will be possible to upgrade a P4 to a P4 Advanced once the parts are available, but it will require a new main control board to deal with the very different camera and that is not going to be cost effective when a 2nd hand P4 will sell at a decent price, or make a great present ... especially if new ones become unavailable!

If the video looks better than your raw photos then you need to look into how you are processing the raw files!   It is the same sensor, used at full sensor resolution in both cases, except the video has the top and bottom chopped off to make 16:9 aspect ratio.  Also the video probably comes out of the sensor with 1 or 2 bits less resolution so that it can cope with the frame rate.

When it comes to flying drones I am definitely a newbie and happy to learn. When it comes to processing images I would consider myself a professional as 10 years of paid work can testify. Often cameras are designed to be strong at one or a few things. My Nikon D810 for example is a precision camera for detailed work like weddings, studio work and landscape where as a Nikon D5 is a sports/wildlife, press camera. There no one camera that can do everything.

One thing I know for sure is the P4 video capabilities far exceed the still image capabilities and thats likely by design as they expect most people to use it for video. My processing techniques maximises whats possible and what i have found is that something is missing. The whole point in this thread was to try understand that. Now the stills load as a DNG but they don't behave like a RAW file. So all i can conclude is either the sensor has low capabilities in terms of photos, like someone mentioned earlier or its not really a RAW to DNG conversion. Having edited tens of thousands of images on a variety of cameras with different capabilities in every lighting condition imaginable, I know how to process an image to an advance level. The images I have taken with my P4 are soft, have a fair amount of noise and can't really be pushed much in post processing.  I am not entirely sure whats going on but something is. A fair conclusion is if i want a lot  better then get the hasselblad on the m600. Obviously theres a range that DJI offer and clearly one of the weakness of the P4 is stills. I am still very happy with the product and will make future purchases with stills in mind but was curious what other people thought.

Max App Posted at 2017-4-27 03:49
When it comes to flying drones I am definitely a newbie and happy to learn. When it comes to processing images I would consider myself a professional as 10 years of paid work can testify. Often cameras are designed to be strong at one or a few things. My Nikon D810 for example is a precision camera for detailed work like weddings, studio work and landscape where as a Nikon D5 is a sports/wildlife, press camera. There no one camera that can do everything.

One thing I know for sure is the P4 video capabilities far exceed the still image capabilities and thats likely by design as they expect most people to use it for video. My processing techniques maximises whats possible and what i have found is that something is missing. The whole point in this thread was to try understand that. Now the stills load as a DNG but they don't behave like a RAW file. So all i can conclude is either the sensor has low capabilities in terms of photos, like someone mentioned earlier or its not really a RAW to DNG conversion. Having edited tens of thousands of images on a variety of cameras with different capabilities in every lighting condition imaginable, I know how to process an image to an advance level. The images I have taken with my P4 are soft, have a fair amount of noise and can't really be pushed much in post processing.  I am not entirely sure whats going on but something is. A fair conclusion is if i want a lot  better then get the hasselblad on the m600. Obviously theres a range that DJI offer and clearly one of the weakness of the P4 is stills. I am still very happy with the product and will make future purchases with stills in mind but was curious what other people thought.

The RAW files from the P4 are obviously not going to be as great as an D810 or D5. But they still are RAW and have a lot more flexibility than the JPGs that the P4 spits out.

I have found I get the best results shooting towards the upper end of the histogram (+.3 to +.7) as the tiny sensor suffers in the shadows. Also, I usually always select HDR option as you get a greater bit depth to play around with, but you do risk some ghosting if you have movement in the shot.

Lastly, with the hot pixels you mentioned. Do you use the DJI DNG Cleaner app that is available from DJI? I also noticed the terrible hot pixels in my images at first but found the DNG Cleaner and it works pretty good.

You can check out my instagram if you want to see what i've managed to push out of the sensor. I think one of the latest images there with me chasing a car and boat down a road at sunset, was pretty much maxing out the limit of the P4's dynamic range. I exposed mainly for the sky, so the trees and road in the RAW file are almost black.

Geebax Posted at 2017-4-26 23:16
You can install a P3P camera on a P3 Advanced, even the Standard (it simply makes it a P3 4K). But upgrading the P4 to a P4P is not possible because there are additional controls in the P4P camera that are not provided for in the P4 body.

Namely, the processor and storage are in the AC body on the P4P and in the camera on the P4.

iamsavi Posted at 2017-4-28 17:40
The RAW files from the P4 are obviously not going to be as great as an D810 or D5. But they still are RAW and have a lot more flexibility than the JPGs that the P4 spits out.

I have found I get the best results shooting towards the upper end of the histogram (+.3 to +.7) as the tiny sensor suffers in the shadows. Also, I usually always select HDR option as you get a greater bit depth to play around with, but you do risk some ghosting if you have movement in the shot.

The dji Dng cleaner? I take it removes noise and artifacts?

What I do with my P4 is make good use of the option to take 5 bracketed exposure shots, in RAW. That way I avoid jpg artefacts. I also get a good chance of getting at least one good exposure so do not need to push the RAW too far in post processing.

Max App Posted at 2017-4-28 23:52
The dji Dng cleaner? I take it removes noise and artifacts?

Yes, cleans up the hot pixels you find in the raw files