DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 16:32
I believe it was clear and people are getting caught in a panic. I understand that people's livelihoods are involved and people are very defensive, but a thorough reading of all announcements should have clarified all these concerns. Regardless, I am happy to help clarify things to the best of my ability.

With regards to the P4 issues you mentioned, let's keep this thread on topic as much as possible. PM if there is something specific you'd like me to take a look at.

Thank you Joe for your answers,

I have taken a step back and only have a few questions remaining.

1. I understand and appreciate that when the drone is moved out of the country so it downloads the data for that location.

2. This maybe a dumb question, but many people have been asking is you require an internet connection when booting up the Mavic?

2.1. Follow up, if so do you need it when first starting the mavic in a new country? As sometimes it not possible to get a connection eg. islands, layovers, the cost of a data connection.

3. Broadcasting serial numbers, do you know if this will be mandatory in the next update or be able to turn off if the user chooses so?

4. Week signal, sometimes you just can't get a GPS fix. Back in the thread, it was said that the mavic would be forced into an NFZ state until it located a GPS signal. I believe this is the main concern for everyone, personally, I don't take off until I have a GPS fix. But like I said sometimes your on an Island and have no signal at all for anything. Will the mavic still function like it uses to, or will it be locked in an NFZ?

5. The battery, this is not so much for me as I have the Fly more comb. But it was stated that the *Reserve* for the battery was turned up so that it has more time to RTH. However, that means less fight time like I said to me it's not that big of a deal but to some it is. Can you confirm if this is true?

Last thing, if the serial number is being broadcasted, who can see it? Will I see it flying around on a flight scanner app, also who I live in Australia so my drone is not "FAA registered, I don't know who the "Drone Poilce" are in Australia. The only people I have given my serial number to is DJI, is there a chance that DJI will pass that on to the "Drone Police"?

I don't think you will, as it would not be appreciated by your customers. But like I said, I don't think you will your just building a database of your customers.

I should state that if you read the thread I was very concerned but now thanks to Joe, it's a lot clearer.

Thank you very much Joe,

- Brock

PS. Do you know what happened to Mavic pilots? It was a great place to learn what upgrades everyone was doing to their Mavic's.

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 16:07
I'll answer your questions as best I can:

1) No new flight restrictions are involved in this update. It just makes sure your location is correctly conveyed to the GEO system already in place.

Thanks.

But what do you mean exactly by "your location" ?
I am now located (home) in the SW of France. I fly often in the neighbor country (i.e. Spain).
In one week, I will travel through Italy, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania and Greece where my boat is moored. With this boat, it is possible that i'll sail to Turkey.
What will be my "location" during this trip of several months ?

Why to ask for a re-logging in just for this upadate if it changes nothing essential to the former one and why these limitations if we do not log in after updating ?

Will it be possible to downgrade both the firmware and the app after this upgrade ? If so, why version .0400 of the FW has been recently removed ?

No, this is not completely clear to me and I need more detailed infos.

I think the fundamental confusion is regarding the statement "This new step, to take effect at the end of next week, ensures you will use the correct set of geospatial information and flight functions for your aircraft, as determined by your geographical location and user profile." from the DJI announcement.

What's confusing is that DJI aircraft already use geospatial information based on GPS location to determine hard flight restrictions (NFZ's and Authorization Zones), and also provides advisory information via the Geo system. Since all of this is already in place now, exactly what is changing?

What if you don't agree to the agreement coming up and never ever upgrade?

DJI Joe, good answer - thank you. One thing that is not quite clear - will the rules change if someone travels out of the county? That happens a bit, and am wondering if once the GPS realizes, I am not in the US, if anything would change, and if i will in any way be notified of what is the local ruleset (not that i would not check on my own, but...)

Phantomski Posted at 2017-5-22 19:41
DJI Joe, good answer - thank you. One thing that is not quite clear - will the rules change if someone travels out of the county? That happens a bit, and am wondering if once the GPS realizes, I am not in the US, if anything would change, and if i will in any way be notified of what is the local ruleset (not that i would not check on my own, but...)

I am also interested on his response as I will be travelling to Hawaii/Canada/Nepal in three months.

Henrik Olsen Posted at 2017-5-22 22:06
Will DJI end the world as we know it with their latest Firmware? here are my thoughts on this!

https://youtu.be/2EldjZrzzHI

https://youtu.be/2EldjZrzzHI

Will DJI end the world as we know it with their latest Firmware? here are my thoughts on this!

https://youtu.be/2EldjZrzzHI

Too bad I don't believe what DJI says... not a single word. I've been a loyal customer over the years but now it seems it's time to move on.
DJI says that if you turn off auto update for the app you will not be affected.... really? A while ago I decided not to update my Phantom 3 or the app because of the issues that the new updates caused. Mine worked just fine (except for the camera being at an angle all the time) and I didn't want the trouble of vibration, failed updates, poor performance, lag etc. It was fine until recently when I went to start my Phantom and got a message on the screen saying that I need to update the app - no way to cancel the pop-up, no way to get to the camera view. I could still fly but without the app. So, I had to update and I'm furious because with the update the performance of the video downlink was severely affected. It used to work great, now I get glitches, slow performance and a huge delay up to a few seconds.
I don't believe DJI is being honest here. I'm expecting a pop-up message that will not let me use the drone until I update the app and when I do update I will get a message that forces me to update the firmware.
DJI, if you force me to update MY* Phantom 3 I will demand a full refund of the purchase price!! I'm really tired of all this... I'm already spreading the word that people should stay away from DJI products. I hope we don't have to go to court over your "law making"!
* - MY Phantom as in this product belongs to me and you have no right to make any changes to it without my consent. It is up to me ME to decide how to use it and what to do with it. If I buy a knife and use it to hurt somebody I will be responsible for it not the manufacturer of the knife. If any laws are broken by me using MY drone I will be responsible for it!

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 16:07
I'll answer your questions as best I can:

1) No new flight restrictions are involved in this update. It just makes sure your location is correctly conveyed to the GEO system already in place.

Hi Joe,

Its nice to see DJI finally have someone in here reviewing this.

But I will raise a number of points. Please find the time to reply.

1. You clearly state No new flight restrictions are involved in THIS update.  Every reply I have seen from DJI all say THIS update. This does not suggest for a moment it wont occur in future updates.
I think many peoples concerns are what about the next update. Which we will be forced to install or effectively have our drone grounded....

2. I am not sure you company understands European Consumer Laws. I am very sure you have no right to make fundamental changes to devices that we own.  You are well with your rights to make these new requirements part of any NEW sales. But we purchased our drones "as described". If you change this you are in breach of European Law.

So unless there is some form of inherent flaw that would require you ground my drone (in the same way Samsung bricked the flawed Note devices), you have no reason or right to put anything in place that would stop me from flying my drone.

I understand, and for the most part accept the requirements for NFZ etc, but this is not the issue for me. You are attempting to fundamentally change the terms under which we purchased our drones. You are not allowed do this.

kmastro66 Posted at 2017-5-22 17:09
Not familiar with Litchi.  Does it allow you to completely bypass DJI GO?

Yes, except for more technical adjustments like gains.
You probably have to use a DJI app for initial registration too.
Once set up you can delete DJI apps completely.

It's very strange why this re-login now. Technically they can do whatever they want. We all know that. They can do a lot of things when we sync our data with their servers. That's possible.
Of courser, there are laws that protect user's privacy.

But to put all users re-login and threat that no re-login will result in substantially downgrading of your drone's functions is big.
Are they trying to put users accept new Terms & Conditions? Perhaps, from a legal perspective,  having got user's consent would give them one headache less when they decide to apply more limitations etc.

They were clear that THIS update will not bring new limitations other that what we already have. Perhaps they are taking it step by step.

1) First get user's consent about future changes in the product .
2) Having user's consent apply new limitations to future firmware updates.

That's of course all speculation, until we see what's really coming.   

Hello, I believe this will be very helpful in canning the cowboys out there, however, I am a licensed and certified UAV operator to 25KG in Australia and I have no way to fly my DJI products inside the geofences area even though I have approval from our countries authorities. How can licensed and certified operators get around this?

Buzzcam Posted at 2017-5-23 01:11
Hello, I believe this will be very helpful in canning the cowboys out there, however, I am a licensed and certified UAV operator to 25KG in Australia and I have no way to fly my DJI products inside the geofences area even though I have approval from our countries authorities. How can licensed and certified operators get around this?

Buy a drone from a different manufacturer. DJI is going way too far with this...

fans784c0784 Posted at 2017-5-23 01:36
Be ready to record evidence of all this (forced update) and form groups on facebook to exchange county specific information on possible/probable legal action. I bought mine from Apple in the uk do I have recourse against them for selling it? I have flown my drone in 6 countries and many without possible internet connection. I didn't buy it for dji to make it impossible to use as I bought it. If dji refund me I won't have a issue: otherwise get ready to demand justice!

I firmly believe, specially if you find yourself in a situation where you have the restrictions mentioned applied for not installing an update, and that you cant use livefeed video etc, that we will have full grounds for a refund.

If Samsung or Apple push out a new update to your phone, you are not forced to install it, and you are not penalized for not installing it (with the expectation of not gaining new functions).  

I believe in Ireland for example this would be covered by the Sales of Goods Act

anything you buy from a retailer must be:
of merchantable quality
fit for its normal purpose, and reasonably durable
as described, whether the description is part of the advertising or wrapping, on a label, or something said by the salesperson.


If we are unable to fly our drones any longer they are most certainly not "fit for normal purpose" and no "as described" when we purchased the hardware.

What warranty?  They told me it was like a week then you are sol...I know there done a lot for people anyway but last time my P3 took off backwards and crashed I had to pay repairs

The more cynical (or paranoid) may think that DJI will want to charge additional "license" fees for flying your purchased product outside your limited region. Perhaps special "global edition" products that work without those pesky "pay to play" charges that this allows for in the future?

The less cynical, like me I would say, simply want to know how this works for those who travel frequently and, in my case, I choose to not always have a roaming data connenction on my phone - roaming costs outside the EU (which are being limited) are horrendous.

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 16:07
I'll answer your questions as best I can:

1) No new flight restrictions are involved in this update. It just makes sure your location is correctly conveyed to the GEO system already in place.

Could you please tell me why FW400 has been removed?
Also I cannot set my AC to factory defaults (in my case that was FW400).

Phantomski Posted at 2017-5-22 13:21
A quote from an email I got today... what do u guys make of the last sentence of this 1st paragraph?
"DJI will soon introduce a new application activation process for international customers. This new step, to take effect at the end of this week, ensures you will use the correct set of geospatial information and flight functions for your aircraft, as determined by your geographical location and user profile. All existing flight safety limitations, such as geofencing boundaries and altitude limits, remain the same."

That last sentence was not in the original announcement at the original time of announcement, nor has there been an announcement that it has been added to the original announcement (as a clarification).

It is good that it has appeared, but smells of shenanigans that it was just surreptitiously tagged onto the end.

So does DJI CARE will continue to be valid if I don't update?
Or if I use litchi instead?

PacoSaiso Posted at 2017-5-22 12:46
You don't need internet connection to fly, I hope you sell your mavic just to realize that listening to stupid people to make decisions instead of reading the information for yourself is a big mistake. I will be flying my Mavic as I have always done after taking 30 seconds to validate the update by inputing my password, which is the only thing DJI has changed regarding their drones and their operation.

First of all I said "if this is the case" meaning that my drone will be sitting in my closet until further analysis of this update. If the situation being speculated by these so called stupid people is correct I will be selling the drone. Second, I'm well aware that you don't need internet connection to fly, but one can only assume you need internet connection to login. Allow me to break this down for you... if no internet connection = no login = flight restricted... sold Mavic.

DJI should add manual settings, everyone will be happy !

fans0cdccbeb Posted at 2017-5-23 03:42
First of all I said "if this is the case" meaning that my drone will be sitting in my closet until further analysis of this update. If the situation being speculated by these so called stupid people is correct I will be selling the drone. Second, I'm well aware that you don't need internet connection to fly, but one can only assume you need internet connection to login. Allow me to break this down for you... if no internet connection = no login = flight restricted... sold Mavic.

If you could read correctly... the login process has to be done only ONCE, after each upgrade of the firmware or DJI Go app... so as long as there is no new upgrade to do, you don't have to login. Even if you fly in another country...

Phantomski Posted at 2017-5-22 12:49
Well, I guess when I bought it, I knew there will be geofencing, and I checked the maps, and I was ok with what was done... so as far I am concerned I bought a drone with attached technology.. if the technology changes I follow the flow. To me this thread looks like people complaining that they bought a computer with win7 but then have to go to win10, when microsoft discontinues win7.. yes, it was a pain, yes it sucked a bit.. but overall, u bought a computer with microsoft OS, and they decided to push an upgrade.. get over it.. there's not much you can do there....
But to each his/her own...  I am just naturally naive enough to trust most vendors in IT to a point, and I hope DJI will prove as trustworthy, and not screw us over...  I always knew there are NFZ and I cannot fly there....  as long as they do not cut off much other stuff, i'll be happy.. if they do screw us then we should stand up and fold their helpdesk with very specific request proving their decision was wrong...  But, I think we should wait till it happens.. I do not think they gonna abort their plan - just because of discussion here and now... I think that ship has sailed... let's just see where it goes....

Don't recall the last time Microsoft would restrict me to Notepad and Solitaire on my Win7 if I didn't update to Win10... js

Kal Zakath Posted at 2017-5-23 04:10
If you could read correctly... the login process has to be done only ONCE, after each upgrade of the firmware or DJI Go app... so as long as there is no new upgrade to do, you don't have to login. Even if you fly in another country...

I reread the original post by DJI and not the op on this thread and it does only say once... I guess I got caught up in the chaos, my apologies.

Still playing it safe until we know what all this means and what this update really does. I was under the impression that the Mavic already uses GEO... and that whitepaper roaming around doesn't ease any of the paranoia. If DJI would truly address its customer base this could be avoided...

DJI whitepaper for those who don't want to backread

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v4lkyr2kdp8ukvx/DJI%20Remote%20Identification%20Whitepaper%203-22-17.pdf?dl=0

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 16:32
I believe it was clear and people are getting caught in a panic. I understand that people's livelihoods are involved and people are very defensive, but a thorough reading of all announcements should have clarified all these concerns. Regardless, I am happy to help clarify things to the best of my ability.

With regards to the P4 issues you mentioned, let's keep this thread on topic as much as possible. PM if there is something specific you'd like me to take a look at.

Hi Joe, thanks for answering some questions, I think I'm starting to get a better idea of what is being implemented with this firmware and app change. If this has been directly answered earlier, apologies, as I haven't read it and this thread is moving quickly. I'll ask these as a direct question, and I think everyone would really appreciate a direct answer without ambiguity.

It sounds like GEO is going to be checked each time the Mavic starts up, what happens if a GPS signal is not available for some reason e.g. you're inside, you're in a tight canyon, etc?

If Mavic can't get GPS position on startup, will the Mavic be able to fly using a non-GPS flight mode or will it lock us out until it can verify GPS position against the GEO database?

What happens if we want to fly indoors (i.e. no GPS)?

E-Copter Posted at 2017-5-22 16:13
What a drama for.. nothing...

So if i understand well, some blame DJI for the datas / stuffs they access, but well when you launch the DJI GO app, doesn't it the first time and at each update ask to access pictures, localisation, microphone , exactly like all the social networks   ??? Choice is yours... simply.

Lot of words and missing the point... this does not seem to be about the restrictions per se, but about the application of them, after the fact. Most people on here did not buy their equipment with this expectation clearly spelled out otherwise I am sure a lot of different purchasing decisions may have been made, or maybe not, but at least we have we would been aware of what we were actually purchasing.

Again, there's really just one fundamental question here... since DJI products already observe hard flight restrictions (NFZs, Authorization Zones, etc.) based on geograhpical location... what is changing? A clear answer to that single question would clear up a lot.

I do believe we will be able to fly indoors still without GPS - otherwise the Spark is going to be useless and unable to fly the way they demonstrate in their videos.. UNLESS they are making it the only drone able to fly without GPS - which I very much doubt.. We should still have these functions - otherwise DJI WILL be shooting themselves in the foot.. One thing I know is that without GPS the Mavic and Phantom line aren't able to fly over 8 meters (26 feet) when vision processing is able to take place, or 30 meters (96 feet) when GPS is weak and VPS is inactive (these are the current limits that are set per the manual)..

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-22 16:07
I'll answer your questions as best I can:

1) No new flight restrictions are involved in this update. It just makes sure your location is correctly conveyed to the GEO system already in place.

Pretty poor communication plan Joe! I would have thought that you guys have enough experience by now to get ahead of these sorts of issues. Need to review your ComOps process. If this was the company I work for and we had disturbed our (revenue and profit generating) customer base and much as DJI have then they would be looking for new career oppoprtunities! This could have easily been controlled by better press releases, Q&A sheets or even web chats or similar (email invite sent to registered users!) with the various forums that are out there.

I don't see the problem. It's for safety. And if you need to fly for any reason in restricted areas you can get an unlock.

I have 2 scenarios facing me that I need clarification on..

I'm going on holiday to the Faroe Islands for a photography trip in 2 days.

1) If I update before I go will I have to download new geo data when i'm there? I wont have wifi and cell service might be limited
2) I don't update before I leave and I cant update when I'm there... Will my mavic be reduced to 30m altitude???

I need answers asap please

RoryM Posted at 2017-5-23 06:45
I have 2 scenarios facing me that I need clarification on..

I'm going on holiday to the Faroe Islands for a photography trip in 2 days.

It says in the press release if you update your firmware without logging back in AFTER you update your firmware you will be restricted.. IF you do NOT update your firmware and go app, you will NOT be limited.. Just don't update your firmware and go app until you get back from your gig..

They should have also specified which app and firmware versions are included in the new process.

Two observations:

1.  While I don't trust DJI one iota...it appears that at least for this update, the goal is to repel potential liability by forcing acceptance of responsibility for local regulations.  The fear is eventual physical flight restrictions.

2.  In regards to DJI's apparent non-interest in thoroughly responding to the concerns of this group,  I am reminded of what a confidant that works in marketing for another product once told me.  That is, that the truly active, forum visiting consumers of the product, while seemingly large in number, probably only represent a very small percentage (maybe 1% to 5%).  The vast majority of purchasers of the products are oblivious to any info regarding these discussions and will blindly click to update when so instructed.

Mobilcams Posted at 2017-5-23 06:56
It says in the press release if you update your firmware without logging back in AFTER you update your firmware you will be restricted.. IF you do NOT update your firmware and go app, you will NOT be limited.. Just don't update your firmware and go app until you get back from your gig..

Thank God! Someone answer the question i had two pages before, Can i ask something else now, my friend?
I did the new firmware and after three days i was out and in again on my dji go 4 app am i good?

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-5-19 14:47
It looks like this update is just a step to ensure GEO is being enforced. If one updates and provides the necessary account info, I don't believe any unnecessary flight restrictions will be put in place.

If this activation process is not performed, the aircraft will not have access to the correct geospatial information and flight functions for that region, and its operations will be restricted if you update the upcoming firmware: Live camera streaming will be disabled, and flight will be limited to a 50-meter (164-foot) radius up to 30 meters (98 feet) high.

So if I live In Canada, but spend 6 months of the year in Brazil with my Phantom 4......will this new update work in both locations?

My concern is not about THIS update.
Cause this is just a small step, everyone new to the club are getting locked in on new terms and conditions.

My major concern is with everyone sticking to the old firmware and not updating.
At some point in time the countdown of your .400 .550 .700 firmware hits zero and you will be forced to update.
Then what?
Or when you crash your drone and you have DJI Care.
Your replacement will be have firmware .900 cause DJI delivers with the latest firmware..
Questions, questions, questions.

I would say,...dear DJI don't change the rules in the middle of the game