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Bob Marley's New Bird w/ 1st TORNADO AFTERMATH Video !!!
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Bob Marley
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So finally, after three months of researching and deciding to get the I1, then reading a zillion pages of feedback/bs, I ordered my Inspire1, A version, (and it finally showed up today). I have learned sooooo much about this bird, (without ever having touched one), and have been DYING to get my hands on this thing! So I unpacked a bunch of stuff tonight, tablets, laptop, cinimizers, truth meter/connectors, new strings for my guitars, ooops - and the I1 of course -

OK, multiple choice question ......... After opening the I1 and checking that I had everything, having read a zillion pages ........

What was the 1st thing I did ???

a) - download the Pilot app
b) - fully charge the batteries
c) - read the manual
d) - turn on both radio and I1 and see if they link
e) - locate info concealing wire and cut it




The correct answer of course is e. I could not wait to find that thing, then chop it in two!
After reading about 100m charge times, and being told NOT to charge both Radio and lipo pack at the same time, I just had to get at the truth right away!
Here is a pic of the fabled beast, (I'm sure you will all recognize it).











And now ...... "Take that!" POS, hider of info, Now I cut you, one left side, one right side!.................................... "Hey dude, you just VOIDED your warrantee" - eye roll lol











I know most of you can cut/paste, this is the same thing, it's easy, cut/solder   "Don't be Scared Homie" (notice the truth meter upper left)












OK, now that everyone is ready, there will no longer be any secrets about what is going on between the left half, and the right half.
The truth meter will now reveal magical info - (I'm getting goose bumps) -









Now before we get too ahead of ourselves, let's get some things straightened out.
Many peeps on these forums have either the WRONG IDEA or NO IDEA how this stuff actually works, so here's a real quickie to get you pointed correctly.

1st, most importantly .....HEAT is the enemy of ALL components - it's simple, if something gets hot, something isn't right - period, end of story, make some adjustments.

On a typical basic electric model plane we want to get as much power (watts) at the prop as we can, without getting anything hot.

Prop.............................. Motor  ......................................... ESC ...................................................... Lipo Pack

if only the ESC is getting hot, the Prop/Motor is pulling too much power from the lipo pack thru the esc - Change the ESC
if only the motor is getting hot, the prop is too long/pitch - Change the prop
if only the lipo pack is getting hot, it is NOT supplying enough current- change the pack.

The "sweep spot" is when all components are equally "warm" when your flight is over.
(not cold/underperformance .... or hot/edge of failure.


Same thing when we charge Lipo packs, (except the charger never gets hot).

Power Supply ..........................Charger .............................. Lipo Pack

The Charger is always the boss here, It determines at how many watts the pack gets charged at (volts x amps = watts).
(the charger/circuit board is mounted on top of the lipo pack, people wrongly call the black power supply and cable the "charger" .. stop that please.)

The Power Supply should be like a big lake, with more than plenty of power for anything the Charger asks of it.
If the charger wants to charge a big lipo pack at 400 watts, having a 800 watt supply would be really nice, it would not even break a sweat giving constant 400w to the charger. Power Supplies DO NOT push/or force power to anything. They just sit there, and offer any power asked of them, (up to their rating). Having a giant Power Supply will NOT blow up a lipo pack. It will simply only supply the amount of power the Charger is asking of it.
Having an adequate Power Supply is the most important component in the charging system. "Scottie, we need more power"



K, let's start making some connections.....

First off, here are both the 47 & 48 coming in to the RIGHT side of the truth meter. These packs were only about 60% charged when shipped and display their current voltage before charging. Notice the other values read 0 because the battery is neither charging nor discharging, there is no current flow.




Now you will see the Power Supply's voltage as it's connected to the LEFT side of the truth meter.
You will note the other values are 0 because the Charger is not yet asking it for anything, so there is no current flow.
(also pic of the specs of the Power Supply 26.3v x 3.83a = 100.729 watts).







OK, now it's time to connect the Right & Left sides together and FINALLY see Watts Up (pun intended).

1st - we hook up one of the controllers.
As you can see that the Charging circuit inside the radio is asking the Power Supply for only 23watts and drawing less than 1amp.
"I can easily charge 3 of these of these controllers without even getting warm" the Power Supply exclaimed, (and rightly so).





Now lets unplug the radio and just connect one lipo pack, the smaller tb47. Let's see how much power it's Charger will ask of the Power Supply.

OMG, do you see that! The Charging circuit on the tb47 is beating the tar out of that silly little power supply.
The tb47 want's MORE power than the Supply can offer. If this were a 400w Supply it would be able to easily give the charging circuit anything it asked, without breaking a sweat, but guess what. This supply is MAXED OUT and it is getting HOT !!!






Now we will also connect the radio as well. One might think things will get worse, but it Cannot.
Why?, the Supply is already Maxed out by the lipo pack, so it cannot get any hotter. I could solder 10 pigtails on and charge 10 packs at the same time (parallel charging) and the Supply will not work any Harder, (just longer). As you can see there is no difference with the radio also charging.


So when the question came up in the forums "Can we charge both at the same time" the wrong answer was given on several different occasions.
"No, the Power Supply will get too hot charging Both"  
Well, we now know, that's NOT true. The Supply is getting hot from the Lipo pack alone, (and does NOT get hotter/produce more current with a radio also hooked up).


If you look at the Truth Meter the Lipo Pack voltage stops increasing at 25.99v and goes no higher. Divide that number by 6 and you will find a perfectly balanced pack and what voltage the Charging boards charge each cell to.
.






CONCLUSION -
These Power Supplies are NOT "adequate" for these lipo packs, and I am very uncomfortable with the high temps it reaches.
It is no wonder why it takes these packs so darn long to charge. So if we had a gigantic 800w Power Supply, I wonder how many watts the onboard chargers would ask from an more than adequate supply? I'll have the answer by tomorrow.

There are several ways to accomplish this ...
Splice 2 or more of these dji supplies in parallel and give the lipos what they ask for.
Get a different more powerful supply (I have one on order).
Take two 12v deep cycle marine batteries, connect them in series for 24v. (recharge up to 20 packs in the field with no ac power).


So there you go.
After all of this researching and waiting, the first thing I did was insert a truth meter to monitor the most important thing and perhaps the weakest link in all electric airships, the lipo pack. Someone had to do it, I just can't believe I was the first that I have read about.

I can assure you the recent battery glitch thing going from 26% down to 3% in 5 seconds is a Firmware problem, and not a lipo pack problem.
This is very disconcerting because regardless of the "actual" state of the pack, when the software see the incorrect value below 10%, it's going to "auto land", whether its in a Lake, a forest, a mountainside, or an ocean, your I1 is gonna auto land and you're going to lose it -


I guess tomorrow I will read the manual, then take her for the maiden flight. I hope you all learned something and wish me luck tomorrow -

Bob






2015-4-2
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dm.booth.hotmai
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Good luck with the first flight Bob
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theac3man
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This is amazing Bob and puts my mind to rest, I've been charging the controller and battery together several times since I got my I1, i was only able to manually check the temperature with a heat gun since I didn't have the knowledge to connect a truth meter.  I have how ever on my third flight had the said issue of the battery glitch mid flight and occurred forced land - luckily I was at a flying club and landed on the landing strip or I could of however like you said lost my I1.  My question is : was the dual charging possibly causing the firmware to misread the battery charge? I haven't updated my firmware on the I1 or master controller because of the bad press/issues the new firmware has been getting, I have however updated my slave controller but cannot change the slave to master mode and use it to fly the I1

Your post will answer a lot of people's questions and appreciate someone with the extensive knowledge has undertook the task

Chris
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Dave E
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Bob I am wondering about the charging board in the battery. I understand that the "black thing with wires" is a power supply and by the readings on the meter it has a max output of 4.2A. My concern is that if you have a bigger power supply ie more amps (eg to get 2C on the 4700 mAh = 9.4A is the charging board going to handle it?? Is the balancer side of the board going to cope?
I could be missing the point here but in this battery set up it may be the electronics within the battery that may suffer at higher amperage rather than the cells themselves???
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rodger
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Great Post and you are correct in your theory. Obviously you have a background in Electronics. The answers that some have given in regard to charging both the Lipo Pack and the Controller is from the Manual. I believe it is in the quick start guide as well. As stated, Heat is the enemy of all electronics. I have seen an inadequately cooled final Transistors in a Repeater get so hot that it melted the Solder. This was aMunicipal Agency (Police) that had been sold an intermittent duty repeater when they really needed a continuous duty repeater due the the amount of radio traffic on a busy night. The repeater was hammer down all night that, is until the final went. The continuous duty repeater has a heat sink that you could moor a boat to and the fans would cool your house.
Nice Post Bob, let us know how your flight goes, looking for that interesting report also.
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rodger
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kolbjornfla Posted at 2015-4-3 18:02
Good post Bob, but i have one concern referring to the use of a more adequate powersupply.
The cord  ...

Good point. The wire pair is stranded wire, still one conductor in each, just stranded to make it flexible. An increase in the wire gauge will make things cooler and more durable, back to the heat issue, The heavier the gauge the less of the resistance and the current will flow easier resulting in less heat. I don't see why not increasing the wire size. Bob has certainly done a great job on his modifications in the addition (neatly done) of the meter to the charger. Let's see if a larger power supply becomes an addition to his bench.
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Bob Marley
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kolbjornfla Posted at 2015-4-3 18:02
Good post Bob, but i have one concern referring to the use of a more adequate powersupply.
The cord  ...


Yes, correct, you are totally over thinking it, there is no muli color cord, and you have no idea how little 4amps of current is and even less of an idea how much current an 18g wire could carry. We could easily run 40amps thru that wire without it even getting warm, (much less "maxing out"). Its misconceptions like the one that you just posted that run rampant on the internet leading to many intelligent folk having no clue what is really going on. There is ZERO concern regarding everything you posted, (even 10 amps is a trickle)
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Bob Marley
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Dave E Posted at 2015-4-3 18:02
My concern is that if you have a bigger power supply ie more amps (eg to get 2C on the 4700 mAh = 9.4A is the charging board going to handle it?? Is the balancer side of the board going to cope?
I could be missing the point here but in this battery set up it may be the electronics within the battery that may suffer at higher amperage rather than the cells themselves??? ...


Yes, you are totally missing the point. There is nothing for the board to "handle". The power supply will only offer the charger what it is asking for, it will not force itself into the charger. Re-read please.

"Power Supplies DO NOT push/or force power to anything. They just sit there, and offer any power asked of them, (up to their rating). Having a giant Power Supply will NOT blow up a lipo pack (or circuit board). It will simply only supply the amount of power the Charger is asking of it."


Let me add that Chargers have no idea how strong, (or weak) a Power Supply is.
If a charger is asking for 100w, it does NOT know if it is asking a tiny power supply, or asking a large one.
(hope that makes more sense).
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jon
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:00
Yes, correct, you are totally over thinking it, there is no muli color cord, and you have no idea  ...

40 Amps!?  Really? Are you sure?
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w1der
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Oh ... Bob ... I love you soooo much !!!

I have been trying to get some answers regarding the "safety" built in to this driver ... But my GUESS is that ... Should it get to hot (due to high temp surroundings or bad placement) ... It simply turns it self of ... And maybee (depending on how you reset this safety) it starts supplying power again ones it has cooled down (some power supplies needs to be disconnected from the mains to reset) ...
What is your opinion on this ?
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w1der
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This I need you to explain as I have gotten a big "no no" on this from a manufacturer of power supply ...

There are several ways to accomplish this ...
Splice 2 or more of these dji supplies in parallel and give the lipos what they ask for.


I have been told that they start to "switch" (take turns) and that this is not recomended ...

I sell "LED power supplies" (constant voltage) at work but I have not gotten sufficiant technical training and our product manager has no qlue of theese things ...
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Propslinger
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Thank you Bob, this is a very interesting post. I don't have a background in electronics, so I have to re-read several times for it to sink in, but without a doubt I learned something. I'm going to be following this thread.
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Bob Marley
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w1der Posted at 2015-4-3 21:20
Oh ... Bob ... I love you soooo much !!!

What is your opinion on this ?  ...


Sure you do - My opinion is that you get what you pay for and this is a very cheap power supply designed to charge MUCH SMALLER battery packs found in laptops, (imagine the tb48 snuggled into a laptop lol)

Let me ask YOU  a question.
How HOT does YOUR Power Supply get, and how many degrees hotter do you think it should get b4 it turns itself off or catches itself on fire. (someone never returned my heat gun, or I would tell you the actual temp of my Power Supply).

Electricity is very hard to understand if comprehension skills are low.
Clearly you missed the part where I say that "No component should get HOT, if so, SOMETHING IS WRONG"

This should be simple to understand, if the Charger is asking the Power Supply for more than it could handle, it will get HOT and an adjustment needs to be made.

I'll say this one last time - A Power Supply should have "more than enough" power for the job, it should NEVER get HOT - never, ever.
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Bob Marley
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w1der Posted at 2015-4-3 21:29
  I have been told that they start to "switch" (take turns) and that this is not recomended ... ...


Hogwash, I could wire 2 of these in parallel or 50 - (did this person back it his statement with data and pictures?) ....-


I'm not going to argue with anyone about my findings, they are exactly as presented.
I spent a lot of time preparing and producing this post for YOU GUYS, I gain nothing, (and lose valuable time)

This is my data, take it, use it, learn from it, or throw it out and move onto the next thread.

I'm going to build a charging station that will safely charge four tb48 in less than an hour, nothing will get HOT, everything will be happy.

I will call Adam and share with him, the rest of you can read about it in my blog on rcg!
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w1der
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:39
Sure you do - My opinion is that you get what you pay for and this is a very cheap power supply de ...

This is clearly a question about "saving money" ...
Most power supplies used with/as a "consumer charger" is getting hot when used ...
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Bob Marley
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w1der Posted at 2015-4-3 21:53
This is clearly a question about "saving money" ...
Most power supplies used with/as a "consumer  ...

Yes, exactly. And just because DJI charges us $60 bucks for a $12 laptop power supply, doesn't mean they didn't pay $4 bucks for it. But ....... they will sell you a TON of extra $200 lipo packs, (cause really, who's got 100 minutes to waste watching a big 6s pack trickle charge) -
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w1der
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:39
Sure you do - My opinion is that you get what you pay for and this is a very cheap power supply de ...

I forgot to answer your question ...

My power supply is getting HOT ... But I am expecting it to get hot as it is for 100 watts and is not any where near 100% efficiency ... Thus the heat ...

Is all power supplies "regulated" to their maximum current or do some "stress themselves to death" if they are beeing "over loaded" ?

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rodger Posted at 2015-4-3 20:01
Good point. The wire pair is stranded wire, still one conductor in each, just stranded to make it  ...

Just stranded to make it flexible?
There could be another reason like :
1) Electicity travels along the surface of  a wire
2) Stranded wire = More surface
3) More surface = better conducter.
Just my 2cents
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Propslinger
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:42
Hogwash, I could wire 2 of these in parallel or 50 - (did this person back it his statement with d ...

Bob, there are some of us that would love to follow your progress. I am very interested in a better more efficient and safer way to charge these batteries. Thank you for taking the time to post.
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w1der
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:42
Hogwash, I could wire 2 of these in parallel or 50 - (did this person back it his statement with d ...

I am super excited that some one finally are explaining this to me in a way that I can understand !

I got this info from a manufacturer ... So it did not accure to me to question it!
I will do some tests on my own with their drivers to "get the truth" ...
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rodger
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dundee Posted at 2015-4-3 22:03
Just stranded to make it flexible?
There could be another reason like :
1) Electicity travels alo ...

Well, You are thinking about "skin effect" my friend. Skin effect is a RF signal (AC) traveling on the outside of the conductor and not through it. That is why antenna cable has a dielectric usually 50 Ohm impedance for a radio 75 for video. then you have the shield which keeps the signal within the dielectric and along the center conductor. When current is involved the current travels through the conductor, the reason for larger and smaller Gauge Conductors. The larger the Conductor the more Current it is capable of carrying. Current does the work, Voltage moves the Current.  
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Editart
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Great explanatory post Bob, following this thread with excitement.

regards
m
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w1der
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:42
Hogwash, I could wire 2 of these in parallel or 50 - (did this person back it his statement with d ...

A link to that blog PLEASE !
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rodger
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jon@thefullers. Posted at 2015-4-3 21:11
40 Amps!?  Really? Are you sure?

Jon, I guess I will eff up the thread along with you. I think Bob did a great job on his Post and interesting results and proof. However, 18 Gauge wire is rated for 5 Amps for a distance of 10 feet. 40 Amps requires an 8 Gauge Conductor for 10 feet. Check NEC (National Electrical Code) 70 or even just Google it.
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bevin.lealand
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Thanks so much Bob for sharing look forward to more on new charge system your looking at.
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bevin.lealand@g Posted at 2015-4-3 23:48
Thanks so much Bob for sharing look forward to more on new charge system your looking at.

Uh oh. I expect Bob to go high and right again. Where's that popcorn emoticon?
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Outta Control
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Great info.
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Outta Control
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Bob thoughts on this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DJI-Insp ... hash=item3cf5e70af2
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daver/m
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:42
Hogwash, I could wire 2 of these in parallel or 50 - (did this person back it his statement with d ...

Excellent  Bob ! I've been doing RC and charging power packs for years , gas RC before that, I'm not a whiz or claim to be a pro .... just from experience with RC everthing I know you are right on , but still people don't realize when they are getting it straight on this forum sometimes , that overthinking it happens here often....your explanation was superb , easy for anyone with Little RC experience charging etc. to relize just from your posts you do know very well of what you spoke , also you put things into terms that were very easy for most to understand.  Going to cut my chargers cord and splice it for my multi charger used with some other flight batterys , easier to monitor the charge this way. Truth meter !
Very good then hope you enjoy your bird !
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daver/m
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-4-3 21:56
Yes, exactly. And just because DJI charges us $60 bucks for a $12 laptop power supply, doesn't mea ...

Exactly !
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Dave E
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This is an interesting one!!.
To charge a battery quicker you need more Amps. To give a battery more amps you need 2 things, a power supply that can give the amps to the charger and a charger that can control the amps to the battery. To give a high current ie high amps, you need to keep the system cool with fans and heatsinks. The TB47 does not have fans or heatsinks. I am wondering if the electronics within the TB47 are a sort of regulator and a balancing system for the 6 cells rather than a "charger" the electronics in the TB47 can handle 4.2A but It will be interesting to see the results of adding a bigger power supply that is capable of supplying more amps.     
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jon
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rodger Posted at 2015-4-3 23:37
Jon, I guess I will eff up the thread along with you. I think Bob did a great job on his Post and i ...

I actually found a rating for TCW (tinned copper wire) 18swg at 40 amps (which really surprises me) as all my large mains stuff, rated at 32A states a minimum 4mm (cross section) conductor, but recommends 6mm, somewhat larger than 18swg!  But another point is, I haven't cut in to the charger cable of my inspire, so can't confirm the 18swg figure, but think on face value (based on physical dimensions) it looks like the conductors in that cable 'might' be less than 18swg (1.2mm), but cannot confirm either way.

Anyways, I'm not looking to argue, or Fkk up anyones threads, It was just a general banter comment to show my gut reaction / surprise @ the 40 Amp comment, and I'm not sure why Bob felt the need to be quite so abrasive, ho hum, it takes all sorts.

Jon
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rodger
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jon@thefullers. Posted at 2015-4-4 00:36
I actually found a rating for TCW (tinned copper wire) 18swg at 40 amps (which really surprises me) ...

Thanks Jon, very interesting. I never would have thought that. I looked it up in the Code  and the numbers that I posted were in the Table. That is a lot of current fro a small gauge wire. Well, wrong again. Oh well such is life!No argument or flaming here as well.
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dmascheck
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What power supply are you buying and what are the specs?

Thank you in advance!
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PureSQNut
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Another thing to keep into consideration is the power supply MAY in fact be able to charge both at the same time however as with any electronics, especially in solid state or switching power supplies there is the issue of parts tolerance to take into consideration.  Especially out of China, lol.   

Most parts are rated for cost based on tolerance of the part. over 90% of passive parts (typically found in power supplies of all types)  unless in higher dollar precision components you will find parts with a tolerance of 5% - 8% ad that is based on the valued specification.  These types of parts are most common and most affordable. There are parts as close to spec as .01 (typically found in SMT components, not thru hole) however at 5% you could end up with a power supply that can easily perform beyond spec and charge both and handle the increased heat generated from the additional current being transferred but you could easily  get a supply that could barely charge one thing at a time and the second the connector of the second item is connected it goes up in smoke.
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Ph02on
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My Charger used to get quite hot.   Now I just charge under the watchful gaze of a small, yet powerful desk fan running at full chat.  It barely even gets warm now.

Cheers.

Jason
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Bob Marley
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w1der Posted at 2015-4-3 21:59
I forgot to answer your question ...

My power supply is getting HOT ... But I am expecting it to  ...


My power supply is getting HOT ... 1) - But I am expecting it to get hot as it is for 100 watts and is not any where near 100% efficiency ... Thus the heat ...

2) - Is all power supplies "regulated" to their maximum current or do some "stress themselves to death" if they are beeing "over loaded" ?

1) - Your thinking is incorrect. This has nothing to do with it being cheap or good/bad efficiency.
If this was a super cheap, inefficient, 400w Power Supply, str8 from China, it would be running cool as a cucumber, no problem charging both devices. Our 100w Power Supplies are getting HOT because the lipo packs are asking for at least 100w forcing these laptop power supplies to run fully maxed out. How can it NOT get HOT, (it was designed to supply a much smaller pack asking for only 25w).
I have said this at least a 1000 times, and I'll prolly say it 1000 times more.
If a component in your system is getting hot, something is not right. Changes need to be made. Period!


Addressing #2. No, Power Supplies are not regulated, it doesn't work that way. Their components are taking A/C and generating usable D/C current. In DJI's case, the components in their small included power supply is only capable of making 100w. If you would require higher wattage/power, you would need more/larger components. Another way of thinking is to take a machine that can take Sea Water and make 100 gallons of fresh per hour. I you require 200g of fresh per hour, you would need a larger machine with more/larger components. Make sense?

Cheap power supplies have no thermal cutoff and will burn themselves out if stressed.
Medium priced supplies have a built in thermal protection circuitry to shut down when overheated.
Higher priced supplies have thermal protection circuitry that is ALSO able to reset itself after cool down.

Which one do you think we have - lol (no reset button brother).




Lastly, I would never run two cheap DJI power supplies in parallel, I would buy 1 capable one, (it was just an example for you to wrap your head around).
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Bob Marley
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rodger Posted at 2015-4-3 23:27
Well, You are thinking about "skin effect" my friend. Skin effect is a RF signal (AC) traveling on ...

^^^ This is an example of all the useless clutter that gets posted and makes it so hard to find usable info on these types of sites.
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Bob Marley
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rodger Posted at 2015-4-3 23:37
However, 18 Gauge wire is rated for 5 Amps for a distance of 10 feet. 40 Amps requires an 8 Gauge Conductor for 10 feet. Check NEC (National Electrical Code) 70 or even just Google it..


When was the last time you had 10 feet of wire between your battery and ESC? - just plain dumb

I have run HUNDREDS of bench and field tests using a watt meter (and recording MANY of them). I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, (and you guys are just looking for a fight) - (I'm not playing, sorry)
2015-4-3
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Bob Marley
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bostonlines@gma Posted at 2015-4-4 00:03
Uh oh. I expect Bob to go high and right again. Where's that popcorn emoticon?

Hey Pal, I also have popcorn and would like you to post the video of you crashing your new I1 - lol
2015-4-3
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