Hi DJI

Could you please review and fix your interpretation of drone height limit?
In EU regulation you can read that it must be below or equel 120m relative to the ground, not relative to start position.

Dirty Bird Posted at 9-27 02:30
I don't believe it is a misunderstanding, rather a matter of degree of complication.  It is much simpler to implement a blanket "120 meters above take off" compared to "120 meters AGL above variable point x".   The former is very easy to code.  The latter is much more complicated as it involves maintaining an accurate ground level database vs. location of the aircraft, & possibly an object height database as well if there are exemptions for object clearance.

I agree but the simplification and implementation by DJI allows you to still break the rules.
based on the image from post 1,
the pilot stands on a hill, e.g. 100 m high, and flies the drone to the maximum height. When flying off the mountain, related to the ground the drone will be at an altitude of 120m + 100m = 220m, which is against the regulations.

I understand that the implementation is not simple, but the current one also does not meet the requirements for the C0 category.

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 02:38
I agree but the simplification and implementation by DJI allows you to still break the rules.
based on the image from post 1,
the pilot stands on a hill, e.g. 100 m high, and flies the drone to the maximum height. When flying off the mountain, related to the ground the drone will be at an altitude of 120m + 100m = 220m, which is against the regulations.

Correct me if I am wrong but until the new rules come into force this

https://forum22.djicdn.com/data/ ... 696h28vkmmzwdv9.png

is the correct interpretation of the current rues in Europe,

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 9-27 03:03
Correct me if I am wrong but until the new rules come into force this

https://forum22.djicdn.com/data/ ... 696h28vkmmzwdv9.png

Currently it is similar to your image, the weight limit of drones is 25 kg, the maximum flight altitude cannot exceed 120 m - counting from the nearest point on the ground, all flights must be performed within line of sight, a safe distance from bystanders must be maintained.

So still counting from starting position (pilot) is incorrect in both regulations and allows you brake the rules.

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 02:38
I agree but the simplification and implementation by DJI allows you to still break the rules.
based on the image from post 1,
the pilot stands on a hill, e.g. 100 m high, and flies the drone to the maximum height. When flying off the mountain, related to the ground the drone will be at an altitude of 120m + 100m = 220m, which is against the regulations.

In your example, this is also allowed, because the pilot is standing on the hill as the starting point. It would be really crazy if the 120m were only calculated from the zero sea level. But the problem is that if you are not standing on the hill, the drone would have to calculate permanently what the distance to the ground is and then calculate the new 120m limit. This should not be a really difficult matter, since the flight data can be seen at any time on the display.

Please, check the official documentation before writing.
2019/945

At least for now, it is 120m from where you take off and not from sea level. This 120m max hight needs to be corrected ASAP from DJI, they can do it 300m if they do not want to put it in 500m. With the same mentality lets put a limit on all the cars max speed to 80km/h or 60km/h

LV_Forestry Posted at 9-27 03:21
Please, check the official documentation before writing.
2019/945

it is strange i based on page easa.europa.eu

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 03:33
it is strange i based on page easa.europa.eu

There is nothing strange. DJI is in process to get C0 certificate for drone <250g.
Therefore, as it is mention in the law, not more than 120m from the take off point. That's all!

Lowering the 500m is the issue, DJI will not set it so that it is 120 above the ground, as already mentioned, it is far simpler that way as opposed to using a database of topography for the whole or the EU and other countries that requires this.

It doesnt look like its for the UK as yet but the UK will require it, thats or sure, they seem to copy stuff like this.
I havent flown around any hills as yet so it doesnt affect myself but if it did, it would really put me off buying a drone that is limited to 120m and i will not be updating my Mini 3 Pro firmware anytime soon

And for those who tell us the story of the takeoff from the top of a cliff, blah blah blah...
Local laws indicate the max AGL height.  50, 120... Everything is clear, everything is correct.

LV_Forestry Posted at 9-27 03:21
Please, check the official documentation before writing.
2019/945

https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/do ... information-notices

LV_Forestry Posted at 9-27 03:37
There is nothing strange. DJI is in process to get C0 certificate for drone

I do not read any statement that says: Maximum flight altitude from take-off point

It says => Maximum flight altitude 120 meters above ground !
This is not a starting point fixed statement ...

https://www.drohnen.de/20336/drohnen-gesetze-eu/

Space Dream Posted at 9-27 03:53
I do not read any statement that says: Maximum flight altitude from take-off point

It says => Maximum flight altitude 120 meters above ground !

unfortunately only for C0 2019/945 says:
have a maximum attainable height above the take-off point limited to 120 m;

for C1+
have a maximum attainable height above the take-off point limited to 120 m or be equipped with a system that limits the height above the surface or above the take-off point to 120 m or to a value selectable by the remote pilot. If the value is selectable, clear information about the height of the UA above the surface or take-off point during flight shall be provided to the remote pilot.

Space Dream Posted at 9-27 03:53
I do not read any statement that says: Maximum flight altitude from take-off point

It says => Maximum flight altitude 120 meters above ground !

Your post doesn't refer to the law.

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 03:50
https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/document-library/general-publications/drones-information-notices

The same, this link does not send to the law.

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 03:55
unfortunately only for C0 2019/945 says:
have a maximum attainable height above the take-off point limited to 120 m;

You got it

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 03:55
unfortunately only for C0 2019/945 says:
have a maximum attainable height above the take-off point limited to 120 m;

Can you please post a link to the original EU Drone Regulation 2019/947 and 2020/746 documents ?

I never see this take-off point in all the searches I have done but with VLOS it make sense

https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anlage/LF/EN-drones-rules-in-the-eu.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Space Dream Posted at 9-27 04:14
Can you please post a link to the original EU Drone Regulation 2019/947 and 2020/746 documents ?

I never see this take-off point in all the searches I have done but with VLOS it make sense

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal- ... =CELEX%3A32019R0945

945 is the one which mention what are manufacturer obligation

COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) 2019/947 of 24 May 2019

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0947&qid=1695817971151

Space Dream Posted at 9-27 04:41
COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) 2019/94 of 24 May 2019

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0947&qid=1695817971151[Image]

Once again, this are remote pilot obligations(947).
From the manufacturer side (945) in order to get C0 for drone under 250g, DJI is obligated to restrict max altitude to 120m from take off point.

LV_Forestry Posted at 9-27 04:47
Once again, this are remote pilot obligations(947).
From the manufacturer side (945) in order to get C0 for drone under 250g, DJI is obligated to restrict max altitude to 120m from take off point.

OK now i found it - thank you ...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0945

Space Dream Posted at 9-27 05:11
OK now i found it - thank you ...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0945[Image]

But summarizing... C0 category doesn't required (I guess) any certification for drone without camera. If is true, in my opinion for guys with A1/A3 C0 should work as C1 (120m above ground) but for pilots without certificate above start point.
It is stupid that I can fly drone C1 higher ...

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 05:22
But summarizing... C0 category doesn't required (I guess) any certification for drone without camera. If is true, in my opinion for guys with A1/A3 C0 should work as C1 (120m above ground) but for pilots without certificate above start point.
It is stupid that I can fly drone C1 higher ...

It's the EU requirement that a C0 labeled drone operate to a set of rules,   one being the 120m limit.   If you want to go higher you need to purchase a C1 drone.

MariuszPurwin Posted at 9-27 05:22
But summarizing... C0 category doesn't required (I guess) any certification for drone without camera. If is true, in my opinion for guys with A1/A3 C0 should work as C1 (120m above ground) but for pilots without certificate above start point.
It is stupid that I can fly drone C1 higher ...

C0 with or without camera, doesn't request A1/A3 exam. Probably thats why this limitation was required.

LV_Forestry Posted at 9-27 05:29
C0 with or without camera, doesn't request A1/A3 exam. Probably thats why this limitation was required.

For pilots with cert it is very strange and thoughtless.

Space Dream Posted at 9-27 05:11
OK now i found it - thank you ...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0945

This has caused me to cancel my Mini 4 Pro order, and file a complaint with the EASA for imposing a classification restriction that is actually "IN EXCESS OF THE LAW"

I'm looking forward to the class action lawsuit that will inevitably follow, and will happily join it.

For those whom would argue that it doesn't matter, that professionals don't use C0 drones... let me explain something as an busy commercial operator: WE DO USE THE MINI DRONES FOR PROFESSIONAL WORK.

Why?

Because it is our responsibility to minimise:
- Risk
- Noise
- Unwanted Attention (caused mostly by noise, which in turn can increase risk)

To that end, there are plenty of situations where, in the conduct of a commercial operation, we are required to use smaller (quieter) drones.

Why does the 120m "from point of takeoff" limit matter to professional operators?

Let me give you an actual example from an actual client job where I had to increase my Max Altitude above 120m, and had no option but to use a <250g drone (what would be C0 classification).
I was doing a shoot for the tourist board of Pico Del Teide, the volcano at the centre of the island of Tenerife. These shots required me to ascend from numerous points of takeoff ascending the volcano (which extends multiple kilometres from the "valley" below).
The permit granted stipulated a maximum noise level (decibel limit) that the Mavic 3 and even the Air 2s at the time exceeded, and so permission was granted contingent on using the Mini 3 Pro for these shots instead.

Fortunately, the Mini 3 Pro enabled me to raise the AGL limit to the required level, while in reality never exceeding 120m AGL at any given moment (in keeping with EASA laws, the actual laws that we're bound to when we fly without airspace clearance exception).
Had I been forced to use the Mini 4 Pro, I would have been refunding my client, and put to unacceptable cost.

We will now have to begin using custom built drones, and may even be forced to violate EASA laws in order to conduct similar shoots in the future... not because the law prohibits us from conducting these operations safely and legally, but because of some ridiculous legislation governing the classification of drones, imposing a restriction IN EXCESS OF APPLICABLE LAW (which, by the way, is open to legitimate legal contest in court).

DJI, I wanted to buy the Mini 4 Pro. I put the order in... but the absurd restriction just lost you a customer (and I'm sure many more will follow as word rapidly spreads)
I hope you at DJI will join those of us in the EU as we push back against the EASA on this absurdity!

We really will have read everything on this forum.

Now I have found an easy to understand explanation that I like

Instead of measuring the flight altitude at the point on the earth's surface closest to the drone (AGL), the altitude in reference to the starting point always applies to C0 drones. Thus, you will "lose" maximum flight altitude if, for example, you start at the base of a mountain and fly up it on a slope. For C1, C2 and C3 drones, the following would apply at this moment: No higher than 120 m above the point on the mountain where the drone is currently flying. For C0, on the other hand, the following applies: No higher than 120 m above the starting point at the bottom of the mountain. If the mountain is higher than 130 m, you cannot legally reach the top with a C0 drone. Unless you move the starting point.

I don't care about the 120m limit. Near from where I live there's no big mountais, except one with 906m of altitude at 1 hour distance. I fly mostly near the sea coast at sea level, so 120m it's reasonable for me...
But it's a deal breaker if we can't fly above sea level whenever we want with the Mini's...
I didn't read everything in this thread but I sure hope DJI doesn't limit the altitude by software...

Hi there. Thank you for reaching out. In accordance with the new European Drone Regulation that will come into effect on 1 January 2024, DJI's Mini 4 Pro will be launched with a C0 class identification label and therefore be restricted to an altitude limit of 120m that cannot be increased in any scenario (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal- ... ri=CELEX:32019R0945 - ANNEX, Part 1). This measure has been introduced by the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) to allow safe flight operations for drones weighing less than 250 grams. In accordance with the same European Drone Regulation, all other currently-available drones of the DJI Mini series (e.g. Mini 2 SE, Mini 3, Mini 3 Pro) will be restricted to an altitude limit of 120m later this year via a DJI firmware update. Customers of the above-named, currently-available DJI Mini-series drones (before Mini 4 Pro) will be able to apply retroactively for C0 class identification labels in Q4 this year via a process we will share in due course. Thank you for your understanding and support.

DJI Paladin Posted at 9-27 18:54
Hi there. Thank you for reaching out. In accordance with the new European Drone Regulation that will come into effect on 1 January 2024, DJI's Mini 4 Pro will be launched with a C0 class identification label and therefore be restricted to an altitude limit of 120m that cannot be increased in any scenario (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal- ... ri=CELEX:32019R0945 - ANNEX, Part 1). This measure has been introduced by the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) to allow safe flight operations for drones weighing less than 250 grams. In accordance with the same European Drone Regulation, all other currently-available drones of the DJI Mini series (e.g. Mini 2 SE, Mini 3, Mini 3 Pro) will be restricted to an altitude limit of 120m later this year via a DJI firmware update. Customers of the above-named, currently-available DJI Mini-series drones (before Mini 4 Pro) will be able to apply retroactively for C0 class identification labels in Q4 this year via a process we will share in due course. Thank you for your understanding and support.

just to be clear, again, this only pertains to the E.U. and there are no plans or expectations that the limitation will be for drones in the U.S., correct?

SnowSkier Pilot Posted at 9-27 14:49
I don't care about the 120m limit. Near from where I live there's no big mountais, except one with 906m of altitude at 1 hour distance. I fly mostly near the sea coast at sea level, so 120m it's reasonable for me...
But it's a deal breaker if we can't fly above sea level whenever we want with the Mini's...
I didn't read everything in this thread but I sure hope DJI doesn't limit the altitude by software...

Are you saying "so long as you are not inconvenienced it doesn't matter that other flyers are *^%$£@! " ?

DJI Paladin Posted at 9-27 18:54
Hi there. Thank you for reaching out. In accordance with the new European Drone Regulation that will come into effect on 1 January 2024, DJI's Mini 4 Pro will be launched with a C0 class identification label and therefore be restricted to an altitude limit of 120m that cannot be increased in any scenario (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal- ... ri=CELEX:32019R0945 - ANNEX, Part 1). This measure has been introduced by the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) to allow safe flight operations for drones weighing less than 250 grams. In accordance with the same European Drone Regulation, all other currently-available drones of the DJI Mini series (e.g. Mini 2 SE, Mini 3, Mini 3 Pro) will be restricted to an altitude limit of 120m later this year via a DJI firmware update. Customers of the above-named, currently-available DJI Mini-series drones (before Mini 4 Pro) will be able to apply retroactively for C0 class identification labels in Q4 this year via a process we will share in due course. Thank you for your understanding and support.

How about, instead of forcibly modifying the specification of drones we have already purchased (Mini 2, 2 SE, 3, 3 Pro etc) by pushing a Firmware update to restrict our drones to max 120m from takeoff position (rather than above ground level vertical relative to the drone, as the law itself permits) then "offering" us the change to "retroactively apply for a C0 sticker" (something that many of us neither want nor require to operate legally)... instead you ask us if we WANT to apply for a C0 certification, and only for those who consent you impose the max 120m from point of takeoff restriction?

Ultimately, you're imposing a restriction on customers for a product purchased with a particular specification. I'm certain this is actually a violation of EU commercial trade laws (reducing the suitability for purpose of a product by artificial means AFTER the point of sale).

As I said: let people OPT IN for the new (ridiculous) restriction by explicitly applying for a C0 certification for their drones, rather than forcing those of us whom operate legally and commercially with a legitimate need to be able to increase the AGL threshold from point of takeoff to leave DJI in favour of either custom builds, or an upcoming rival company who doesn't impose such ridiculous and arbitrary restrictions on products IN VIOLATION OF THEIR TRADES DESCRIPTIONS AT THE POINT OF SALE AND PURCHASE.

digibud Posted at 9-27 19:15
just to be clear, again, this only pertains to the E.U. and there are no plans or expectations that the limitation will be for drones in the U.S., correct?

Hi there. Yes, this Law is applicable to EU countries: Austria,&nbsp; Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark,&nbsp; Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia,&nbsp; Slovenia, Spain, and Sweden. Hope this helps. Thank you.

DroneMonkey.works Posted at 9-29 02:17
How about, instead of forcibly modifying the specification of drones we have already purchased (Mini 2, 2 SE, 3, 3 Pro etc) by pushing a Firmware update to restrict our drones to max 120m from takeoff position (rather than above ground level vertical relative to the drone, as the law itself permits) then "offering" us the change to "retroactively apply for a C0 sticker" (something that many of us neither want nor require to operate legally)... instead you ask us if we WANT to apply for a C0 certification, and only for those who consent you impose the max 120m from point of takeoff restriction?

Ultimately, you're imposing a restriction on customers for a product purchased with a particular specification. I'm certain this is actually a violation of EU commercial trade laws (reducing the suitability for purpose of a product by artificial means AFTER the point of sale).

No one is forced to make updates. Or is this the case?

LV_Forestry Posted at 9-29 03:53
[view_image]

No one is forced to make updates. Or is this the case?

if you don't update for long enough, DJI's app does in fact force you to.

DroneMonkey.works Posted at 9-29 08:48
if you don't update for long enough, DJI's app does in fact force you to.

then just keep your RC offline if you are using it

Potato mini Posted at 9-29 10:13
then just keep your RC offline if you are using it

you can also just factory reset and get rid of all the firmware updates