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UK no fly Zone confusion class D
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rick39
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I live in the North West of the UK in Cheshire. It appears that the majority of the county from East to West (approx 70 miles by 40 miles: 2,800 sq miles) is in a Class D no fly zone, (0 to 2500ft) and includes the Greater Manchester area and the Wirral. This is how I've interpreted the information from NOTAM, due to the flight paths of aviation traffic around Manchester and Liverpool airports. Looking at another map from a link somewhere on this forum that pointed to a DJI web address, the no fly zones are limited to specific small areas of varied size around major airports, light aircraft flying fields, and micro-light sites.

It's very hard to interpret where UAV flight is allowed and where it is strictly forbidden. This is apart from the obvious bans of flight within urban areas, close proximity to sensitive locations and keeping proper distance and height from people and animals. Does anyone have the answer or at least sound advice as to which maps you can trust and how to interpret the information supplied by DJI and NOTAM.

Is there a map that is specifically issued for the UK for Drone flight rather than general aviation. I know the two are intrinsically linked and that flight planning should be pretty much the same for drones and general aviation. Using the example of one obvious difference, that drones are limited to a maximum of 400feet and general aviation above that height, unless permission has been granted otherwise. I know not all class D flight restrictions are the same, as differences in height restrictions are listed.
Observing the boundaries of these restrictions are further complicated by the size and specifically weight of a given drone as to whether a drone can be used in these zones or not. My interest is in the specifications of a Mavic pro.

Can anyone give me some sort of guidance?

Many thanks for reading this post.
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Airobotix
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I take it you've downloaded the NATS Drone Assist app?
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gibbd
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definately give the following app a try.  It is designed and influenced by NATS who control the airspace.  I have found it really useful.

Sadly, it really is about using common sense, as the rules and laws can be very confusing.  I think one main thing to note is, there LOOKS to be a lot of restrictions, but in reality there aren't THAT many.    Just that most of the country has warning areas rather than 'No fly zones'

http://dronesafe.uk/drone-assist/

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rick39
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gibbd Posted at 2017-2-2 01:39
definately give the following app a try.  It is designed and influenced by NATS who control the airspace.  I have found it really useful.

Sadly, it really is about using common sense, as the rules and laws can be very confusing.  I think one main thing to note is, there LOOKS to be a lot of restrictions, but in reality there aren't THAT many.    Just that most of the country has warning areas rather than 'No fly zones'


Many thanks gibbd. I actually downloaded drone assist last week. Comparing fly zones with NOTAM info it seems like they use the same data. I can't see mention of anywhere that actually states a no fly zone, although the following three warnings from a Class D description below that covers the area I described in the OP (2700 sq feet) comes as close to say the whole area is a no fly zone, albeit some 15 to 20 miles away from the nearest airport:

Airspace type CTR
1. Control Zone
You are close to an airport. we strongly recommend you do not operate your drone here.
2. Regulated Airspace
This airspace is likely to contain high volumes of aircraft. We recommend you do not operate your drone here. If you do, please exercise extreme caution and abide by CAA Dronecode, ensuring your drone remains within your line of sight at all times.
3. Summary
Red zones are regulated high risk areas and operation of your drone may be hazardous or prohibited.

restricted/may be prohibited/if you do, exercise extreme caution.......How are we supposed to know how to interpret the "defined" rules with these types of descriptions?


All of the pink coloured area represents restricted airspace from surface up to 2500ft and some area ...

All of the pink coloured area represents restricted airspace from surface up to 2500ft and some area ...
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rick39
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And here is a screen capture from DJI's no fly zone website with this accompanying safety video. This video was made a few years ago, so some of the height and distance specifications are not accurate now. but it does give the gist of a no fly Zone relevant to today.

DJI A & B no fly Zones Cheshire area.

DJI A & B no fly Zones Cheshire area.
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Harbourside
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Hi Rick, the Mavic / Phantom's are all OK to fly in Class D airspace.
The Class of airspace only applies to UAV's over 20kg.
You just need follow the Drone Code
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hallmark007
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Hi Rick, I'm not fully up to date with British aviation law, but I know it's similar to Irish law,

Law for flying in controlled airspace, you cannot fly in controlled airspace without written permission from the CAA, you would need to have a specific operations permit (SOP), you would also have to inform ATC and let them know when you are taking off and when you are expecting to be finished.


So I would imagine if you are looking to fly in a D zone and this is a controlled air space you would need permission as above

Uncontrolled airspace you are free to fly under the normal drone flying rules
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rick39
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-2-2 08:45
Hi Rick, I'm not fully up to date with British aviation law, but I know it's similar to Irish law,

Law for flying in controlled airspace, you cannot fly in controlled airspace without written permission from the CAA, you would need to have a specific operations permit (SOP), you would also have to inform ATC and let them know when you are taking off and when you are expecting to be finished.

Hi Hallmark,
Controlled airspace is a generic term for all classifications of air space other than Class G, which falls under uncontrolled airspace. That would mean that I would need permission from the CAA in all flights other than Class G. I need to investigate further!
Many thanks for the reply
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rick39
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Harbourside Posted at 2017-2-2 08:04
Hi Rick, the Mavic / Phantom's are all OK to fly in Class D airspace.
The Class of airspace only applies to UAV's over 20kg.
You just need follow the Drone Code


Hi Harbourside,
I've noticed that Class D airspace has flight restriction applications starting from surface level and anything higher than that as stated at the current location you are in. These could be 1000ft, 2500ft or 3500ft etc.
I don't want to fall into accepting only what I want to hear as the definitive answer to my questions, but the 20kg rules are exactly what I need to know more about and how they are incorporated into current flight classification rules.
Thank you very much for your response, this has given me fresh hope and encouragement!
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Harbourside
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Taken from the CAA website -

CAP 722 UAV operations UK
1.36 Under ANO 2009 Article 166, operators of SUA with a mass of 7 kg or less are not required to gain an NSF approval from Air Traffic Control (ATC) to operate within Class A, C, D or E airspace or within an active ATZ. However ANO Article 166 states that a person in charge of a SUA ‘may only fly the aircraft if reasonably satisfied that the flight can safely be made’ and that they ‘must maintain direct, unaided visual contact with the aircraft … for the purpose of avoiding collisions’.

So to recap, no airspace class rules apply to the Mavic, but you must stay under 400ft and maintain visual contact with the Mavic.
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hallmark007
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rick39 Posted at 2017-2-2 11:08
Hi Hallmark,
Controlled airspace is a generic term for all classifications of air space other than Class G, which falls under uncontrolled airspace. That would mean that I would need permission from the CAA in all flights other than Class G. I need to investigate further!
Many thanks for the reply

As you will see in the maps you posted marked in red these are controlled airspace under the control of CAA and there ATC.

There are many other controlled airspace  these are controlled by other bodies i.e. Government military etc. PA prohibited airspace , DA danger airspace, MA military airspace, TRA temporary restricted airspace ,
The red circles you see on your maps are controlled airspace starting from 0 to whatever it says, other controlled space marked by red outline is also controlled space but can start a 2500 up to 60000 ft , what's under this is not controlled airspace i.e. 0 to 2500, you don't need permission to fly under these controlled areas up to 2500 ft , but in the red circle zones you need permission from CAA and you also need a licence to fly a SUA in these areas .
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RM316
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Harbourside Posted at 2017-2-2 11:51
Taken from the CAA website -

CAP 722 UAV operations UK

I second this response. With the caveat that this only applies to non commercial flights.  A PFCO would otherwise be required, as would insurance and relevant permissions.
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rick39
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Many thanks to you guys for putting me straight on the rules and guidance issues affecting drone usage in the UK.

I have had a look here Consultation on the Safe Use and found it to be a mine of information.

It's a 58 page government consultation paper that outlines current guidelines and working practices and proposed changes that could be put in place to make operators of drones more aware of their obligations and the consequences of misuse. Clear definitions regarding weight differences of drones and their associated obligations, allowances and restrictions are all in there, but it takes a bit of reading. Actual changes to the current flight rules outlined in this consultation paper are very few. The main points seem to be in making operators more aware of existing rules through education and possibly a theory training program, as well as the distinct possibility of having a registration scheme for drones over 250g (same as the USA is now but not sure if their weight requirement is the same).

The Mavic weighs in at under 1kg. As I read it, anything under 7kg flown non commercially can actually fly higher than 400ft. I will have to have a re-read through it all, but I think 7kg and under can fly up to 500ft.  Certainly the ability to fly in Class D airspace with craft under 20kg is just as Harbourside described. My thanks to Hallmark too, for responding to the images I posted.

Thanks again to all that have responded; very much appreciated.
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Willik
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thx for this thread, marking it...
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Pyramid
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Hi I am a CAA approved operator, and as hallmark said, these rules do not apply to sub 7kg. However it is always advised to contact ATC if you are flying in a controlled airspace.
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rick39
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"The Mavic weighs in at under 1kg. As I read it, anything under 7kg flown non commercially can actually fly higher than 400ft. I will have to have a re-read through it all, but I think 7kg and under can fly up to 500ft."

I wrote the above two posts ago. I think I may be wrong as the specified limit is actually 1000ft. However, that applies to drones of under 7kg without surveillance equipment. So 400ft it is then.
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rick39
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Pyramid Posted at 2017-2-3 00:39
Hi I am a CAA approved operator, and as hallmark said, these rules do not apply to sub 7kg. However it is always advised to contact ATC if you are flying in a controlled airspace.


Hi Pyramid, thanks for the reply.

Does that mean that the CAA would encourage anyone flying under 7kg and safely beyond the distance boundaries set out for airports, people and buildings etc, in the Class D airspace I specified (2,800sq miles approx.), to inform ATC of intended flight?

This is obviously theoretical but there may be 100's or soon to be 1000's of drone flights contacting ATC of intended legitimate flights in my example, which I imagine would be extremely time consuming and hard to process. Is this contact merely advisory rather than asking for permission, as I imagine ATC can remove the right to fly at any time. If the latter, but it's not mandatory to contact ATC, then this will discourage operators of drones from contacting ATC, and ATC not granting flight to anyone that bothers to make contact due to overly stretched admin resources.


I don't mean to sound like I'm shooting the messenger here, I'm just trying to satisfy myself that I'm staying within the law and observing all safety requirements.
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rick39 Posted at 2017-2-2 06:59
Many thanks gibbd. I actually downloaded drone assist last week. Comparing fly zones with NOTAM info it seems like they use the same data. I can't see mention of anywhere that actually states a no fly zone, although the following three warnings from a Class D description below that covers the area I described in the OP (2700 sq feet) comes as close to say the whole area is a no fly zone, albeit some 15 to 20 miles away from the nearest airport:

Airspace type CTR
Hi Rick
The Drone Assist app does actually make it clear when there is a definite no fly zone eg central area of the City of London.  It states:

DRONE NO FLY ZONE – This area is designated ‘drone no-fly zone’. Do NOT fly your drone in this airspace.  

I find it surprising that areas around every airport haven’t been designated the same precise category, but there we are....
  
Cheers
Ian


London

London
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Pyramid
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The information I have given you is the information received during the course I originally attended, this may be more geared towards commercial operations. However I would personally suggest you contact them, my experience with dealing with ATC has been "really good" and they are happy to hear from you. If like you say it becomes an issue with so many phone calls then it's something they will have to deal with i suppose, all I know is the general consensus supported by the CAA is to contact ATC if flying in A,B,C,D controlled airspace sub 7Kg, also to note this applys to other forms airspace used by Millatry, smaller setups ie parachute gliders etc. Ps for the above postcode 400ft is the maximum height you can fly your drone in the UK and within line of sight period. Exceptional case may apply for a OSC for very one offs which could be granted but not very often.
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rick39
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The lack of no fly zones around airports is exactly what threw me too Wellsi.
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rick39
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Pyramid Posted at 2017-2-3 07:20
The information I have given you is the information received during the course I originally attended, this may be more geared towards commercial operations. However I would personally suggest you contact them, my experience with dealing with ATC has been "really good" and they are happy to hear from you. If like you say it becomes an issue with so many phone calls then it's something they will have to deal with i suppose, all I know is the general consensus supported by the CAA is to contact ATC if flying in A,B,C,D controlled airspace sub 7Kg, also to note this applys to other forms airspace used by Millatry, smaller setups ie parachute gliders etc. Ps for the above postcode 400ft is the maximum height you can fly your drone in the UK and within line of sight period. Exceptional case may apply for a OSC for very one offs which could be granted but not very often.


I take your opinion with great respect as you are CAA registered and rely on the use of Drones as part of your profession. Anyone operating a Drone commercially has to have CAA approval irrespective of weight (of the Drone, not your own weight!). You also have to have insurance which may well be made mandatory for leisure use too, but isn't as yet.

Current legislation as it appears in the Government paper I referred to earlier, states the following in relation to drones weighing less than 7kg in order to amend and make the rules more understandable to simpletons like me:

5.17B.
Reducing the complexity of the altitude limitations for drones, in general
and when near licensed aerodromes and heliports.

The current regulation states that all drones weighing more than 7kg must not generally be flown over 400ft, and this is also advised for smaller drones in the
Dronecode, for safety reasons, although it is not a legal requirement. In an amendment of the ANO, Option B could also include amending this altitude limitation to ensure that it does apply to all drones weighing 7kg or less too.


It goes on to suggest that this should be amended to cap the height to 400ft for all drones whether commercially or leisure operated to include weight of UAV's from 250g and heavier.

I don't recall or haven't yet seen that a leisure drone pilot is advised to make contact with ATC when flying legitimately in Class D zones. I know commercial operators have to, in order to comply with their registration approval.

When you get a spare minute or two, and you fly in the UK, the Government publication gives good information and a clear idea of what is allowed now and outlines proposals of considerations for changes that are envisaged in the near future: Consultation on the Safe Use of drones in the UK
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SJT
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Even if the law is not clear on this for drones under 7kg, you can still be taken to court and they will fall back to the next level of industry code of practices or guidelines (in this case the CAA Drone Code).  As there's a flyer for the drone code in every UK Mavic box, you'll be expected to know this and abide by it.  Stay under 400ft.
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rick39
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SJT Posted at 2017-2-3 08:05
Even if the law is not clear on this for drones under 7kg, you can still be taken to court and they will fall back to the next level of industry code of practices or guidelines (in this case the CAA Drone Code).  As there's a flyer for the drone code in every UK Mavic box, you'll be expected to know this and abide by it.  Stay under 400ft.

Sound advice.
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hallmark007
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rick39 Posted at 2017-2-3 07:57
I take your opinion with great respect as you are CAA registered and rely on the use of Drones as part of your profession. Anyone operating a Drone commercially has to have CAA approval irrespective of weight (of the Drone, not your own weight!). You also have to have insurance which may well be made mandatory for leisure use too, but isn't as yet.

Current legislation as it appears in the Government paper I referred to earlier, states the following in relation to drones weighing less than 7kg in order to amend and make the rules more understandable to simpletons like me:

One thing I find strange and a bit of an anomaly, you say license holders need permission to operate in controlled airspace, but unlicensed pilots don't need permission.
I am a commercial licensed holder with the IAA here in Ireland , I must get written permission from IAA to fly in controlled airspace, unlicensed SUA pilots are not allowed to fly in controlled airspace, all SUA pilots are bound by the same rules VLOS height limits and distance, limits, they are all free to fly in uncontrolled airspace once they abide by the rules for SUA flying,
It seems in U.K. All SUA pilots licensed or unlicensed pilots are free to fly in Controlled airspace, although there are many articles on the web which differ to this.
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rick39
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Harbourside Posted at 2017-2-2 11:51
Taken from the CAA website -

CAP 722 UAV operations UK


Hi Harbourside,
Do you have a link to the document you posted from here in this thread?
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rick39
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-2-3 09:38
One thing I find strange and a bit of an anomaly, you say license holders need permission to operate in controlled airspace, but unlicensed pilots don't need permission.
I am a commercial licensed holder with the IAA here in Ireland , I must get written permission from IAA to fly in controlled airspace, unlicensed SUA pilots are not allowed to fly in controlled airspace, all SUA pilots are bound by the same rules VLOS height limits and distance, limits, they are all free to fly in uncontrolled airspace once they abide by the rules for SUA flying,
It seems in U.K. All SUA pilots licensed or unlicensed pilots are free to fly in Controlled airspace, although there are many articles on the web which differ to this.

Hi Hallmark,
Do you have a link to documentation that says unregistered drone operators can't fly in controlled airspace?
Cheers.
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rick39 Posted at 2017-2-3 11:10
Hi Hallmark,
Do you have a link to documentation that says unregistered drone operators can't fly in controlled airspace?
Cheers.

For CAA no, I have read article on web I can try find that for you,

Otherwise if you drop these an email you will get a proper response instead of going all around the HOUSE's
UAVenquiries@caa.co.uk
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rick39
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-2-3 11:29
For CAA no, I have read article on web I can try find that for you,

Otherwise if you drop these an email you will get a proper response instead of going all around the HOUSE's

Cheers Hallmark, thanks for your time.
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Harbourside
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The link to CAP 722 is HERE

It takes a bit of reading....
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Nigpd
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Hi Rick - I'm in Frodsham, so if you fancy a fly some time, give me a shout.  
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rick39
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Thanks Harbourside, will have a good read of that soon.
Nigpd, I bet you say that to all the boys! Many thanks for the offer. I will bear that in mind once the weather gets better, the days get longer and work commitments ease up a bit. All the best.
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Adam UK 6
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Rick, thanks for this post, I recently invested in my first drone (a Mavic) and have been having exactly the same concerns.

I'm based in Salford close to Manchester city centre but just outside the big airspace highlighted on your map (MCH CTR:118.575) that seesm to cover Liverpool and Manchester airports. I flew my Mavic in Salford Quays early Sunday morning 7am before anyone was around but got a warning about being in controlled space so led me to do some digging to make sure I'm not about to get arrested!

Reading the thread, i'm concluding I am still OK to fly within the Class D space without contacting ATC. with caution and in compliance with the basic rules set out in the 'Drone Code'.

During my research/quest to make sure i'm not about to cause a catastophe and I'm covered in the event something does go horribly wrong, I came across a club called FPV UK who offer public liability insurance for all their members. It's only £15 for a year so whilst not a legal requirement, for the sake of £15 I thougth I'd sign up. Might be worth checking them out.  

Adam

2017-3-28
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hallmark007
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Adam UK 6 Posted at 2017-3-28 02:57
Rick, thanks for this post, I recently invested in my first drone (a Mavic) and have been having exactly the same concerns.

I'm based in Salford close to Manchester city centre but just outside the big airspace highlighted on your map (MCH CTR:118.575) that seesm to cover Liverpool and Manchester airports. I flew my Mavic in Salford Quays early Sunday morning 7am before anyone was around but got a warning about being in controlled space so led me to do some digging to make sure I'm not about to get arrested!

This might help. I'm not 100% sure if it applies to drones but this is my reading of class D.

Class D:

IFR and VFR
ATC Clearance before entry
Comply with ATC Instructions
IFR flights separated from other IFR flights
Traffic Information on VFR flights passed to IFR flights, with avoidance advice if requested
Traffic Information on VFR flights and IFR flights passed to other VFR flights
Class D airspace in the UK can be found in most control zones around airports.
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Griffith
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Note the difference between controlled/restricted airspace and No-Fly Zones.  In the case of the latter, most drone manufacturers (including DJI) will quickly force a drone landing (no override) if the drone crosses into a NFZ.
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Adam UK 6 Posted at 2017-3-28 02:57
Rick, thanks for this post, I recently invested in my first drone (a Mavic) and have been having exactly the same concerns.

I'm based in Salford close to Manchester city centre but just outside the big airspace highlighted on your map (MCH CTR:118.575) that seesm to cover Liverpool and Manchester airports. I flew my Mavic in Salford Quays early Sunday morning 7am before anyone was around but got a warning about being in controlled space so led me to do some digging to make sure I'm not about to get arrested!

This is what I concluded but as anew owner wanted to make sure - it's reassuring that this is the case. The NATS app makes things more confused as it says MAY be prohibited. Glad I don't need to contact the local control tower.
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Ghani phantom 4
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How to do I ask for the permission to fly near heathrow airport just to fly under 20m?
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gnirtS
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You can call Heathrow ATC ops.  Depends how "near" is near.

If you're inside that 1km from the fence new laws i can guarantee the answer is going to be "no"

As for the original class D airspace, the mavic is well below the weight where permission is required so provided other conditions are met (its not actually restricted airspace etc) you can fly there no problem to a max of 400ft AGL.

The drone assist app is pretty essential for UK use but can confuse people.  It'll turn up controlled airspace and so on but that doesnt mean you cant fly.
Only if you get the stop sign type icon you cant fly.  Only if it says "Flight Restriction Zone" in details is it illegal to fly.  Everything else is operate at your own discretion remembering your obligation not to endanger aircraft.
FWIW the app has already been updated for the new laws and airport boundaries so well done them - i was expecting that to take ages.
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Wellsi
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The NATS app is surprising in how it reveals just how much you CAN fly your drone.  It's easy to think that controlled airspace means no flying, but this is absolutely not the case for most consumer drones, esp under 7KG.

I trust the NATS app completely as it's straight from the people responsible for controlling our airspace, namely National Air Traffic Control.   Follow the CAA's dronecode + the NATS app and you'll be fine!



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