Hi Guys,

It is my first post and I am excited to join DJI comunity ! I am passionate about photography and part time I am running travel blog with my fioncee.  We just bought DJI Spark to get extra excitements in our photos As it is called selfie drone we treat it more as a toy than a serious kit to do videography and that is only what we need it for.

On our next trip we will be staying in Paris, few cities in Portugal and Amsterdam. I looked at DJI no fly zone map and it looks like this:



Which to me doesn't look that bad. But I have started searching for more details and I found few threads saying that flying drones is strickly forbiden in City of Paris.

Could you guys advise me what restrictions there are for flying drones in Paris.
Is there any acceptable hight/distance for flying drones?
Is it ok just to fly around ourselves to take few cool selfies?
Is small Spark considered to be one highly forbiden drones?

And what about Portugal - Porto/Lisbon and Amsterdam?

Thanks
Michal

I think, any city area is where there are a lot of people, cars, vehicles and this is the reason why it is forbidden. It can cause accident that lead to serious injury, damages, lost of life when the aircraft is out of control.

https://kadata.kadaster.nl/dronekaart/

No fly zones for the Netherlands

good evening. In portugal the government is now creating legislation for drones. It seems that soon it will be necessary to register drones with more than 250g and have insurance for drones over 350g. However there is already an app made by entities that tells you the places you can fly and the height. Search for "voa na boa" at appstore. What about the others european countries?

Thanks for your answers, it is still a little bit unclear to me about short distance flight which don't even reach the top of buildings which surrounds you. I have read that you should be at least 50m away from any vehicle/car and 30m from other people. Does it take to account parked cars ? I imagine that you are not causing a danger of the accident in this case? Should I believe that there isn't anyone using theirs small drones legally in Paris or Amsterdam?

Do you use drones in cities if you are sure it doesn't cause any danger to anybody around and you flight close enough to make everybody feel safe?

I am just trying to understand the common limitations for using drone for fun.

It's very difficult to know if someone is in that parked car,so that should answer that question. Paris has very recently been under attack by terrorists so I would be very careful flying without permission in that city, you should really google search for drone rules for specific countries you are traveling to.

For France, you have an interactive map tool here which is provided as an experiment by civil aviation and French mapping agencies (not 100% valid)

https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/d ... ur-drones-de-loisir

As for the rules for leisure UAVs in France, they are summarized here in English :

https://www.ecologique-solidaire ... ational%20drone.pdf

from the doc, you'll get links to detailled rules, but in French only...

Edit : if it's a professionnal activiy, then rules are totally different and you have to register to aviation agency etc. more info :

https://www.ecologique-solidaire ... ages-professionnels

Thank you so much Matioupi!

I have seen the map which you added the link to, but I havent seen't the pdf document. Thanks for that.

Following the map It looks like whole Paris is 'red'. I just feel that it must be acceptable for people to use drone eg Spark just to fly around themselves in safe conditions. Or is it that strictly forbidden that if somebody can be fined for flying around himself in the big park at least 30m away from people ?

I don't want to push rules too far but I would really like to use the drone for a small cool shot in most places I go.

Thanks for all your answers.

Michal Lasta Posted at 2017-7-31 10:49
Thank you so much Matioupi!

I have seen the map which you added the link to, but I havent seen't the pdf document. Thanks for that.

I don't live in Paris since a while so I don't know where the blurry line stands.
My understanding is that it's strictly forbidden. For sure it's forbidden in all "must see" places. Anyway, you'll have a hard time finding a place with nobody 30 m around in Paris :-)

This article from Paris local newspaper : http://www.leparisien.fr/high-te ... 09-2016-6097941.php

and this one :
http://www.france24.com/fr/20160 ... drone-champs-elysee

from last september claims that it's strictly forbidden everywhere, but in two dedicated areas :
- Longchamps horsetrack (I guess only when no horse race are happening)
- Parc de la Villette (North East of Pars) which is a nice area with a nice "Science" museam to visit.

I don't know if those area are still active and what are the actual conditions of flight. It seems that they are active only once a month...

I guess you'd better run out of Paris and enjoy other great Fench landscapes !

+1
Never trust the flight controller, those autopilot I mean. It is a computer and it can be broken anytime. Either hardware or software or both. You can see people lost their aircraft occasionally. Though you make sure that you are about to fly with safety in mind, but the aircraft does not. When malfunction happens, it flies away and may fly into some car running at high speed causing panic to the driver who then hit someone walking on the roadside.

I am also a new Spark owner, new to drones, and I'm researching this all and trying to understand.

From this thread it sounds like it is illegal in Paris to have the Spark fly at 4m and take a selfie shot??  Seriously?

I understand about not trusting flight controller etc...but still.  Are a handful of helium balloons illegal?  If they're bright colored, and carry a small GoPro, you could take selfies that way.  But never trust the balloon lines - they can break and then fly off, endangering pedestrians, bicyclists and auto drivers that become distracted and cause accidents.

The same goes for kites.  When I was a child I created a small parachute and attached payloads to it, and both to the kite.  I would yank the kite string to release the chute with payload, and  watch where the item would fly off to.  Are kites illegal in Paris?  They can certainly be dangerous!  What if a terrorist dropped a bomb from a kite?  And never trust the kite string.  What if the string breaks and the kite flew off into the windshield of some poor driver and caused an accident?  I'm now highly concerned about the laws concerning flying kites within Paris city limits.

I'm really trying to understand here...

@Psyches: We are talking about legal restrictions here, about law. It doesn't have to be rational or follow a logic and often it doesn't. We are not expected to understand it but just to follow the rules. And if we don't agree with them, in democratic countries there are legal ways to force changes of the law.

The biggest mistake you have made is to deem the spark a toy.

"Are kites illegal in Paris?"

I used to take aerial photos using a kite and, yes, there are regulations concerning their use.

Hi. Really don't want to rain on your parade. We would all love to fly round city landmarks at will.
But mainly beacause of idiots,  laws, some ferocious, have been introduced with colossal penalties.
Plus liabilities. Clip your hand with the props to see.
Others laugh but I think it takes quite a while to be competent in spark's behaviour.
There is still much to enjoy, but look after yourself.

Thanks Folks.

@_pk, what you say about legal restrictions, about law, makes sense.  It may not sound like it but I really am just trying to understand the legal boundaries as solidly as I can.  This is my first drone - I've played with a friends smaller racing drone for a few seconds, but I've flown mine for less than a month and I'm pretty naive still.

@MikB, legal restrictions on kites makes sense to me as well.  Out of curiosity, do you happen to know what they are (or were, when you were using them)?

@Bright Spark, not sure if you were replying to me re: deeming the Spark a toy.  I absolutely do not think it's a toy.  I could gush on about it, but I've done computer engineering for decades, and I think the Spark is one of the most amazing packages of technology that I've ever seen.  I've been a gadget lover for decades too.  And the Spark...from taking good, simple selfies, to doing a bit of racing, to exploration, to pretty decent cinematography, well I could imagine the Spark may become one of the most important tools that I own.  At less than half the cost of a premium cell phone, I could also imagine millions of others buying into its capabilities.  Then I think the world may change some...just as automobiles and computers changed everything, I think many of the current legal frameworks and non-scalable UAV processes will need quick, dramatic revision.

But for now, again, I'm just trying to understand how things are today.  So, in Paris it really is illegal to use a Spark just to take a selfie outside?  If someone flies a Spark in their home in Paris and the fact is discovered, are they opening themselves to criminal proceedings?  (If it seems like a silly question, I don't intend it to be - I'm trying to understand real legal boundaries today).
UPDATE:  So, after reviewing an article posted on this thread, I see the rule actually is 'For good reason: it is forbidden to fly a drone "above the public space in built-up areas" '.  (via Google Translate, sorry francophiles)


So (a) flying in a private spot should be perfectly legal if kept within boundaries, and (b) selfies in public should be ok, as long as the higher quickshot modes aren't used.


I hope I'm reading that right.

I apologise. I thought in your opening post where you say you treat it more as a toy, you meant you treat it more as a toy.
Never mind though, hey, it's all fun.
I dream of some relaxation or rationalisation of matters, but I really can't see it happening.
You can't play golf in the Champs Elysee I imagine.

Psyches- Sorry OP was not you!

@Psyches

If someone flies a Spark in their home in Paris and the fact is discovered, are they opening themselves to criminal proceedings?

I don't know about French law, but at least in Poland flying inside a building and flying in an open area are gathered by quite different sets of regulations.

"@MikB, legal restrictions on kites makes sense to me as well.  Out of curiosity, do you happen to know what they are (or were, when you were using them)?"

Copied and pasted from FAA regs as follows:-

"§ 101.13 Operating limitations.

top
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate a moored balloon or kite—

(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;

(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;

(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or

(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport."

I seem to remember that in EU the max height was 60 metres.

Interesting thread with regard to what defines a flying drone. If its within your "Personal Space" for a snapshot and not flying around at 20meters distance, is that considered "flying"? The obvious answer I would guess is yes. Why? Because you may not INTEND for the AC to leave more than a few feet from you but the POTENTIAL for it to do so is there, and if it gets "Loose" it can do some damage.
However - one of the selling points of the Spark is that it is intended, or at least marketed, to first time users, to be easy to use and to help taking fun new selfies. Dronies - where no one is "In Control" of the AC. Literally take off from the Palm of your hand, use your hand to direct it and take photo and land back on your hand - without even having to power up a remote control. It all seems so safe and fun in the promo videos. Its promoted and advertised as a social device, even safe to be used in crowded areas. In fact in the video attached, it is being operated without blade guards in a crowd!

When someone buys one on the back of the promotional videos it is not beyond reason for them to use it (or want to use it) in the manner they saw in the video. I could quite easily see many people using the spark in palm control mode to take selfies in tourist spots. Its innocent enough use of it isn't it? Or is it?

AlanIRL Posted at 2018-1-1 08:26
Interesting thread with regard to what defines a flying drone. If its within your "Personal Space" for a snapshot and not flying around at 20meters distance, is that considered "flying"? The obvious answer I would guess is yes. Why? Because you may not INTEND for the AC to leave more than a few feet from you but the POTENTIAL for it to do so is there, and if it gets "Loose" it can do some damage.
However - one of the selling points of the Spark is that it is intended, or at least marketed, to first time users, to be easy to use and to help taking fun new selfies. Dronies - where no one is "In Control" of the AC. Literally take off from the Palm of your hand, use your hand to direct it and take photo and land back on your hand - without even having to power up a remote control. It all seems so safe and fun in the promo videos. Its promoted and advertised as a social device, even safe to be used in crowded areas. In fact in the video attached, it is being operated without blade guards in a crowd!

There are sets of rules for all European while a portion of them differ , the safety rules will be in the main the same, mostly regarding flying close to people, minimum 30 metres from a person for groups above twelve minimum height can be as much as 120 metres.

If you want to fly closer to people ie for selfies you would need permission from all those people in the vicinity and remember you as the controller are 100% responsible for the safety of all those people the buck stops with you, you won’t be able to show promotional video and use it as evidence to show you understood that it was ok to fly so close to people without permission.

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-1 09:02
There are sets of rules for all European while a portion of them differ , the safety rules will be in the main the same, mostly regarding flying close to people, minimum 30 metres from a person for groups above twelve minimum height can be as much as 120 metres.

If you want to fly closer to people ie for selfies you would need permission from all those people in the vicinity and remember you as the controller are 100% responsible for the safety of all those people the buck stops with you, you won’t be able to show promotional video and use it as evidence to show you understood that it was ok to fly so close to people without permission.

I don't disagree with you at all. And I would certainly be trying to keep to those general rules. But remember we live in a society where they have to put warnings on microwaves not to dry your pets in them! My point being that there will be many owners of these easily and now cheaply bought devices that will not use the best discernment.
And the mountain of videos on YouTube and even on the promo videos can give the impression that using the drone in this manner is perfectly safe and without danger.
30 meters - if something were to go wrong it would be hard to prove or disprove if a 30 meter radius was abided by.
This is why I would like a kill switch to just drop the drone should it get out of control. I'd rather it drop to ground than hit someone.  
But the original question remains I think - is it OK to use it for a palm launch - selfie - palm land -  in a city or park if we have a 30M radius without anyone in it? Or is it just out of the question in such areas all together?

AlanIRL Posted at 2018-1-1 09:38
I don't disagree with you at all. And I would certainly be trying to keep to those general rules. But remember we live in a society where they have to put warnings on microwaves not to dry your pets in them! My point being that there will be many owners of these easily and now cheaply bought devices that will not use the best discernment.
And the mountain of videos on YouTube and even on the promo videos can give the impression that using the drone in this manner is perfectly safe and without danger.
30 meters - if something were to go wrong it would be hard to prove or disprove if a 30 meter radius was abided by.

Answer to your question is no unless you have the permission of those within 30 metre.

It does seem strange that you would want to drop your drone from the sky as a failsafe , your drone has many more failsafe to keep it in the air one in particular is barometric pressure which is extremely rare to fail, so I would think regarding people it would be much easier to hit them by dropping them your Aircraft from 100 ft with no control, you won’t hit many people at 100 ft altitude. You must also remember even if you lose gps and your aircraft flys away it will land itself under control of critical battery.

@_pk, re: inside vs outside:  I finally found, deep in a FAA Q&A, that inside is not governed by their regs in the USA either.  Unfortunately many of the simple answers and talks I've found are not specific or complete, and then disinformation spreads far and wide.  Thanks for your guidance.

@MikB, thanks for the kite rule pointer - from FAA regs, no less.  I'll need to find my way around those more.  They do make sense to me...and I guess the key difference-making word there was "moored".

@hallmark007, what you say makes sense, re: "the buck stops with you".  Although I think that is a basic human rule that applies in many other conditions as well, so should not be especially "scary".  Although from 2017 events in the USA, my cynical mind envisions scenarios where 1-2 in a group selfie (as in the promo video AlanIRL posted above) runs screaming to the police:  "I did  NOT give my permission!!!" and trouble ensues.

@AlanIRL, I'm totally with you - maybe you're reading my mind :-)  BTW, re: the kill switch, I was surprised to discover during my Nth read of the user manual...don't ever do the CSC maneuver for 1.5 seconds in flight, unless you do want the kill switch (on RC only, I guess).  Of course, 1.5sec may be a long way in S-mode.
So I continue to try to educate myself re: these questions, notably including the one @AlanIRL posted: "But the original question remains I think - is it OK to use it for a palm launch - selfie - palm land -  in a city or park if we have a 30M radius without anyone in it? Or is it just out of the question in such areas all together? "  And folks, I don't want to co-opt this thread for my own info, or digress.  I'm interested in EU (and Paris as an example case) but I'm more interested in USA where I spend most of my time.  While looking for answers, I found our thread here in Spark forum / EU, and this thread in USA, but Mavic forum.  I haven't gotten an answer from the Mavic side.  Thanks, everyone, for the answers and education here.

I was interested enough to ask the FAA directly.  I've found information and answers in FAA material outside of the regulations themselves to be inconsistent and inconclusive.  However, when I asked specifically about taking a selfie and requirements for airport notification, I was emailed an official, clear answer this morning...direct from the FAA itself.  The official answer is, if the Spark is to fly for any purpose within boundaries, you must first contact the airport.  That is, this is illegal if done within 5 statute miles of an airport without contacting them first.

This seems unfathomable to me, but it apparently is the law in the USA today.  With the coming legions of drone-owners, I hope everyone follows this process to the letter.  I fear the airports will buckle under the weight of communication and something will change...but it will take pain, first, to make this happen.  I will be calling my local airport tomorrow.  And if necessary, every day after that unless they have a process that circumvents manual interaction.

If anyone is interested in the exact question email and exact FAA response, I would be happy to post these separately...I don't want to detract further from this thread.

Psyches Posted at 2018-1-1 11:09
@_pk, re: inside vs outside:  I finally found, deep in a FAA Q&A, that inside is not governed by their regs in the USA either.  Unfortunately many of the simple answers and talks I've found are not specific or complete, and then disinformation spreads far and wide.  Thanks for your guidance.

@MikB, thanks for the kite rule pointer - from FAA regs, no less.  I'll need to find my way around those more.  They do make sense to me...and I guess the key difference-making word there was "moored".

I make the point as someone who is a commercial flyer, but rules are basically the same for all using drones, I believe most people are sensible about flying, and I don’t believe anyone will go running up to police telling tales, but when I say being responsible what I’m talking about is if your drone crashes into somebody and takes their eye out then even if that person is your friend you could also face criminal damages even if your friend didn’t want to press charges.
It is probably a worse case scenario, but flying these even small drones you should always be aware of potential for things to go wrong.

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-1 13:07
I make the point as someone who is a commercial flyer, but rules are basically the same for all using drones, I believe most people are sensible about flying, and I don’t believe anyone will go running up to police telling tales, but when I say being responsible what I’m talking about is if your drone crashes into somebody and takes their eye out then even if that person is your friend you could also face criminal damages even if your friend didn’t want to press charges.
It is probably a worse case scenario, but flying these even small drones you should always be aware of potential for things to go wrong.

@hallmark007, understood and agreed.  Although in the US I'm fairly confident, at some point someone will go running to the police telling tales.  Here in Silicon Valley I'm seeing amazingly polarized views about drones (as well as many other things)...on NextDoor.com in my neighborhood, crazed folks are posting about using guns, etc, if they even see a drone that they think might be spying.  And there is now legal precedent in the states if true trespassing is done.

Yet as @AlanIRL said, "we live in a society where they have to put warnings on microwaves not to dry your pets in them! " and where you are encouraged to join a class-action lawsuit if you used baby powder and got cancer.  But also where you may buy a hand-held 5W blue laser for about the same price as a Spark...somehow those seem more dangerous to NAS than the Spark.
Meanwhile, in Washington DC, I suspect there are thousands to tens-of-thousands that are unknowingly breaking federal law today by using their new Christmas present Spark to take selfies.

"@MikB, thanks for the kite rule pointer - from FAA regs, no less.  I'll need to find my way around those more.  They do make sense to me...and I guess the key difference-making word there was "moored"."

I know it sounds crazy but for selfies in a city could you not "moor" your drone in some way?

MikB Posted at 2018-1-1 14:09
"@MikB, thanks for the kite rule pointer - from FAA regs, no less.  I'll need to find my way around those more.  They do make sense to me...and I guess the key difference-making word there was "moored"."

I know it sounds crazy but for selfies in a city could you not "moor" your drone in some way?

Doesn't sound crazy at all to me but if the mooring became taut I think the Spark would recognize a hindrance and auto-stop the rotors (just like holding it does).  If the line is light enough to lift yet long enough to not restrict, you'd want to ensure it didn't get sucked into the rotors - maybe low risk due to the downward air pressure, I dunno.  With all this, a selfie stick might be easier...but not better.  I think we (the world) need to find our way through to a sane-as-possible and safe-as-possible in-between space.

There's also the rules of flying 50m away from people and 150m away from any built up area or gathering of people. That pretty much ends any kind of city flying on holiday or in your home town. Even with a licence you would still have to contact the local authorities for permisssion and why you want to fly in the 1st place. Tempting as it is, it's the rules.

Just out of curiosity I tested the idea of a tethered drone. I used a fishing line as a tether and the rod as an anchor. When the line was slack, I had control. When the Sprak was pushed up to its limit it started spinning but when flown down, control came back and I was able to land safely. You can see a video of the test here

(Riley is my dog!)